Aeolian

New member
Aug 21, 2022
Hi all,

I’ve been happily lurking here for a while, and first of all want to thank everyone for helping create such a lovely, constructive, incredibly useful community. I’m an early beginner and have gained an huge amount from everything I’ve read here so far, so am really grateful!

I’m sorry if this has been asked here before, but I’m struggling to find information on this, and wondered whether anyone has any advice about materials (esp. aromachemicals) for a realistic yellow rose fragrance?

I’ve been experimenting and now have a very simple light pink petal accord that I like, made from PEA, Geraniol, Citronellol and Beta Damascone, but my dream is to try to make a rose that’s fuller and slightly deeper, with a fragrant yellow rose scent (like Arthur Bell roses, for example).

It would be incredible if anyone has any thoughts about what I should buy to experiment with for this. Other aromachemicals I currently have that may/may not be useful include:
Y-Methyl Decalactone
Methyl Ionone Gamma
Benzyl acetate
Benzyl acetone (free sample thanks to Pell Wall)
Heptyl acetate
Hedione
Timbersilk
Dartanol
Benzoin
(I also have Rose Givco but would prefer not to use a base ideally)

I’m thinking about getting some Rose Oxide, Guaiacwood, Phenoxanol, Ylang Ylang and maybe Nerol to play around with, but not sure what else to try for yellow roses. Does anyone have any ideas?
 

Alex F.

Basenotes Junkie
Nov 29, 2019
You could try adding a bit of palmarosa (contains mostly geraniol, some geranyl acetate and farnesol) as a naturaliser and to give it more depth. It's made from a Cymbopogon, C. martinii, related to lemongrass and citronella and similarly cheap. I like and use it a lot. Would go well with some guaiac wood (which is/was used in tea rose recreations).

Edit: Poucher (Perfumes, Cosmetics and Soaps: Volume II) lists some suggestions for materials to add to a basic rose note to create more specific rose-types. For the Maréchal Niel rose, he suggests guaiac wood and undecalactone or iso-butyl acetate.
I have a formula for a Maréchal Niel rose bouquet from the 1930s, but it uses c. 5% of real rose otto and 4.2% of real sandalwood. I'm not sure that's what you're looking for, but if you're interested, I can send it to you.
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
Rose oxide, phenoxanol, nerol are all worth playing with. Note that for rose oxide & nerol, the quality & provenance of the materials can have a huge impact on how they work in a rose accord. Also, you will want something spicy, like eugenol (I have had good success with methyl diantilis in rose accords). As far as ionones, I think alpha works better than MIG, as it is more "neutral" & less violet. But you should try both. And touches of peomosa do interesting things in rose accords, IME.
 

Aeolian

New member
Aug 21, 2022
You could try adding a bit of palmarosa (contains mostly geraniol, some geranyl acetate and farnesol) as a naturaliser and to give it more depth. It's made from a Cymbopogon, C. martinii, related to lemongrass and citronella and similarly cheap. I like and use it a lot. Would go well with some guaiac wood (which is/was used in tea rose recreations).

Edit: Poucher (Perfumes, Cosmetics and Soaps: Volume II) lists some suggestions for materials to add to a basic rose note to create more specific rose-types. For the Maréchal Niel rose, he suggests guaiac wood and undecalactone or iso-butyl acetate.
I have a formula for a Maréchal Niel rose bouquet from the 1930s, but it uses c. 5% of real rose otto and 4.2% of real sandalwood. I'm not sure that's what you're looking for, but if you're interested, I can send it to you.
Thanks so much for this advice! I hadn’t considered palmarosa but will now definitely get hold of some and see what it does!

Really useful to know about the Maréchal Niel rose suggestion as well, thank you. I actually would be really interested in the 1930s formula, if you'd be happy to share it?
 

Aeolian

New member
Aug 21, 2022
Rose oxide, phenoxanol, nerol are all worth playing with. Note that for rose oxide & nerol, the quality & provenance of the materials can have a huge impact on how they work in a rose accord. Also, you will want something spicy, like eugenol (I have had good success with methyl diantilis in rose accords). As far as ionones, I think alpha works better than MIG, as it is more "neutral" & less violet. But you should try both. And touches of peomosa do interesting things in rose accords, IME.
Good to know, thank you very much! I really appreciate all this advice. Noted about sourcing materials, and thanks for the tip about something spicy and the ionones. I’d actually been wondering about eugenol and alpha ionone, but wasn’t sure if they were necessary - I'll definitely try them, now, though. I have certainly been finding MIG a bit too violety!

I’d also never heard of peomosa, but it sounds lovely and intriguing, so thanks for the suggestion!
 

Aeolian

New member
Aug 21, 2022
I would do some research on GCMS and Headspace GCMS results for the flower that you seek to emulate.
This paper on page 5 explicates the differences between some roses, in a limited manner.
Mookerjee is one of the famous early researchers for this type of endeavor.
Ah this is brilliant, thanks so much for digging this out! The whole paper actually looks pretty fascinating, so looking forward to reading it. Very cool to have compositions of day/night and living/picked differences studied and spelled out and interesting about the absence of nerol/geraniol. Thank you. :)
 

amateurcitrus

Basenotes Member
Oct 26, 2021
I was thinking of posting this exact question a couple of days ago and didn’t get to it. We have a yellow rose in our backyard and it smells magnificent and so different from other roses.
 

parker25mv

Basenotes Dependent
Oct 12, 2016
Two yellow rose varieties that are prominent are 'Sunsprite', and a newer bred variety, 'Radiant Perfume'.
I think in both these roses, citronellol plays a prominent role, but unfortunately when it comes to roses it's a specific enantiomer of citronellol that is responsible for the natural smell, and the generic citronellol which is commercially available in perfumery does not really do it justice, not in this situation. So I think it is going to be hard to really copy the exact quality smell of these type of roses.

Two other ACs to perhaps help contribute to some of the feel of "yellow rose" are nerol, and perhaps a little bit of apritone (more of an orange-color apricot) to help reinforce the damascone/damascenone effect. These might both lean a little bit "orange-color" rather than specifically "yellow". In addition, Rhodinol 70 can be used to great effect (as I understand it, it's a citronellol derived from a natural source but also contains geraniol).
You might also want to mix in a little natural calendula in there (since it is high in the terpene germacrene D ), could help contribute to part of the textured part of this type of rose smell.

I also would not discount the ability of a little bit of citral to help contribute to a yellow rose effect, although that is going to lean much more on the side of lemon. Perhaps you could try 1 percent in your formula.

Phenoxanol can play a great supporting role too, but you probably do not want to rely primarily on that for the citronellol effect in this situation.
Maybe something like 30 parts phenoxanol, 60 parts Rhodinol 70, 15 parts nerol, 2 parts citral, to give an idea of the relative ratios (not saying you have to use all of those).

The problem with generic citronellol is that it just has a little bit of weird almost metallic "twang" to its smell, like citronella. For a rose type that relies so much on citronellol, it might not be "pure" enough, if you are really after a higher quality smell. So these other substitutes can help replace the effect. Though this could be a matter of personal opinion.

(The damascenone or beta damascone in any rose formula would be low, already less than 1 percent, and the amount of apritone, if used, would only be a fraction of that)

An additional modifier to perhaps consider is phenylethyl phenylacetate (has kind of a beeswax feel but also with a light sweet pink rosy effect, it may go good in a yellow rose fragrance, depending on what effect you are after).

The original yellow rose species (R. foetida) doesn't really smell that special, mostly just smells like linseed oil, with a slight musk.
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
Two yellow rose varieties that are prominent are 'Sunsprite', and a newer bred variety, 'Radiant Perfume'.
I think in both these roses, citronellol plays a prominent role, but unfortunately when it comes to roses it's a specific enantiomer of citronellol that is responsible for the natural smell, and the generic citronellol which is commercially available in perfumery does not really do it justice, not in this situation. So I think it is going to be hard to really copy the exact quality smell of these type of roses.

Two other ACs to perhaps help contribute to some of the feel of "yellow rose" are nerol, and perhaps a little bit of apritone (more of an orange-color apricot) to help reinforce the damascone/damascenone effect. These might both lean a little bit "orange-color" rather than specifically "yellow". In addition, Rhodinol 70 can be used to great effect (as I understand it, it's a citronellol derived from a natural source but also contains geraniol).
You might also want to mix in a little natural calendula in there (since it is high in the terpene germacrene D ), could help contribute to part of the textured part of this type of rose smell.

I also would not discount the ability of a little bit of citral to help contribute to a yellow rose effect, although that is going to lean much more on the side of lemon. Perhaps you could try 1 percent in your formula.

Phenoxanol can play a great supporting role too, but you probably do not want to rely primarily on that for the citronellol effect in this situation.
Maybe something like 30 parts phenoxanol, 60 parts Rhodinol 70, 15 parts nerol, 2 parts citral, to give an idea of the relative ratios (not saying you have to use all of those).

The problem with generic citronellol is that it just has a little bit of weird almost metallic "twang" to its smell, like citronella. For a rose type that relies so much on citronellol, it might not be "pure" enough, if you are really after a higher quality smell. So these other substitutes can help replace the effect. Though this could be a matter of personal opinion.

(The damascenone or beta damascone in any rose formula would be low, already less than 1 percent, and the amount of apritone, if used, would only be a fraction of that)

An additional modifier to perhaps consider is phenylethyl phenylacetate (has kind of a beeswax feel but also with a light sweet pink rosy effect, it may go good in a yellow rose fragrance, depending on what effect you are after).

The original yellow rose species (R. foetida) doesn't really smell that special, mostly just smells like linseed oil, with a slight musk.
I agree that phenethyl phenylacetate can be a very good addition to a rose accord, conferring a honeyed rosy powdery effect that is extremely tenacious & forms excellent accords with rose crystals after all the rest had evaporated. Also, I agree about phenoxanol as being a versatile & useful element of a rose accord. However, there also appears to be a substantial amount of bullshit in this post...
 

parker25mv

Basenotes Dependent
Oct 12, 2016
IMO, Passion fruit Ac,as well Beta ionon and Damascus Rose.
Beta-ionone, you may be right. A little bit of ionone (trailing behind the beta-damascone/damascenone) can be useful in rose; and I personally sense a sort of "yellow" feel from beta-ionone... yellow in the sense of sort of lucuma, quince fruit, or maybe honey.
 

Abby2000

Basenotes Member
Oct 11, 2021
Beta-ionone, you may be right. A little bit of ionone (trailing behind the beta-damascone/damascenone) can be useful in rose; and I personally sense a sort of "yellow" feel from beta-ionone... yellow in the sense of sort of lucuma, quince fruit, or maybe honey.
As per my headspace reference, percentage of passion fruit was higher than the usual rose smell. As well was beta ionon. I don’t have notice yet damascon part .
 

parker25mv

Basenotes Dependent
Oct 12, 2016
As per my headspace reference, percentage of passion fruit was higher than the usual rose smell.
You sense a passion fruit note in the smell of yellow rose?

Do you just mean a more tropical fruity smell, not so specific to any one type of tropical fruit?
(Some rarer varieties of roses can almost have a guava-like note to them)

Does it smell anything like the AC Paradisamide?
 

Abby2000

Basenotes Member
Oct 11, 2021
I concerned it is plummy passion fruit and rose , which is more watery side of fruit , and other side of rose more powdery too . And I didn’t notice paradisamide which is bitter rhubarb notes. But of course the sepals part it is there , not a complete structure of paradisamide .
 

parker25mv

Basenotes Dependent
Oct 12, 2016
I concerned it is plummy passion fruit and rose
Well, I do get a kind of yellow plum feel from Pyroprunat, but it mostly smells like golden raisins and brandy, I suspect that is not what you are describing.
Perhaps hexalon (tropical ionone) might find some use? It is an ionone but has some rich pineapple note that could add a "yellow" feel.

I found quotes like this:
"Yellow and white roses smell similar to violets, nasturtiums, or lemon. And orange roses have fragrances that could be compared to many fruits as well as orris root, nasturtium, violet, or clove."
"Yellow roses are fruity and creamy with fresh peach nuances."

quick thoughts: hexalon is an ionone, so covers the "violet", and is said to have some orris nuance too
There's also acetaldehyde ethyl phenethyl acetal (Verdilyn), if you were thinking about the "nasturtium" part, but I don't recommend it, though at a lower level it could help lend some effects. It's kind of green, hyacinth-floral, a little pungent in a certain way, and reminiscent of sweet pea, especially the intoxicating part of it, but can be a little pungent in its own way, I almost get some of the feel of fresh radish from it. I don't think one would ever want to use too much of it but it can lend effects.
I could see it going into a yellow rose accord.

There's also isoeugenol, and if you wish to add a vanilla note there is methyl diantilis, which is much more like a French Bourbon vanilla or vanilla custard dessert - that is vanilla-like but more of a "yellow color" vanilla. As a bonus it also has a little bit of isoeugenol-like effect. The downside is it is a bit more of a "cooked" vanilla note and may not be as "fresh".
I feel like I may be missing the mark with all the suggestions in this post and be going off on a tangent with things that are not really the most truly relevant.
 

Abby2000

Basenotes Member
Oct 11, 2021
As per my dimensions I made the yellow rose was more exaggerated , as you said it has like hint of orris powder, but the green side peonil more useful.
 

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