When a formulation calls for "resinoid"...

[Bill Roberts]

It could be interesting to see what happens if diluting instead into IPM: it might be that the sticky material would not dissolve. (Speculation, but for likely reason.)

 

[luigi_g]

maceration of the tears in sandalwood oil works very well, no stickiness

 

[islearom]

Luigi_g, using Sandalwood as the solvent sounds very logical, practical, and something I need to give a try with sometime soon. Seems like the method you describe would for certain applications take care of two processes while requiring less steps to accomplish.

Paul, I think the situation in the case here, the distinction of the blend being a tincture vs. a dilution is largely a matter of the quantity of alcohol used. Seems that at some high percent of alcohol, a "solution" would be the more accurate description than would the term "tincture". With enough alcohol, I would not be surprised to find that the "insoluble in alcohol" gums become soluble. Chris implies the same in his post where he comments about how the gum will probably at least partially dissolve in ethanol.

You know how some particular material that is considered to be "insoluble" can become "soluble" when the solvent percentage is increased to some particular required amount. Or, as another example, but viewed from a different angle, something can become soluble simply by raising the temperature. And I know that with Arctander recommending a ten percent quantity of raw resin to be used for the creation of a tincture, it is highly unlikely that he would agree with much of my views in this and the preceding paragraph.

Bill, if the raw Frankincense is soluble in IPM to begin with, I would take a guess that some firm is already taking advantage of that process at the current time. I would imagine that such a solution (assuming such solubility of IPM and and Frank raw resin to be possible) would have it's own particular advantage(s) for some certain particular application(s).

I can imagine how this thread can appear to some readers as either utterly arcane, or for others, as a never ending extension of nick picking, but considering that some goop that oozes out of a desert tree can be modified in so many different ways that provides so many different uses, I myself find this particular discussion to be most interesting.

 

[Bill Roberts]

Almost any aroma material will be soluble in IPM to an extent of at least 10% and usually much more, most commonly miscible; there will be a few exceptions such as musk ketone but this is more from the crystal structure giving lower than usual solubility in anything (ethanol included) than from IPM not being favorable.

The part more open to doubt was whether the sticky materials would also dissolve into IPM as well as ethanol. luigi_g's findings that these materials did not dissolve into sandalwood oil gives high likelihood that they wouldn't dissolve into IPM either. That was great information he provided.

I wouldn't see a particular advantage vs ethanol except with regard to the stickness, as all aromatic materials should dissolve fully into either. A possible exception would be if the sticky material had some fixative properties but its insolubility (for practical purposes) in sandalwood oil suggests probably not, as opinion.

Indeed a commercial product might be using IPM already, or DPG, or TEC. The exact solvent is unlikely to make much difference for an alcohol-based perfume. It was meant only as a possible DIY solution for the stickiness (if that was perceived a problem at all; quite likely not in the final product but perhaps in filtration?)

 

[Chris Bartlett]

Just on the IPM question I can confirm that the resinoid of olibanum certainly dissolves well in IPM, although some heat is helpful to get it started.

That in turn suggests that, assuming there is enough gum in the resin to start with to be a problem, it might be a practical way of separating that out since the gum, being polar, would not dissolve in IPM and might be expected to be left behind. I’ve actually been meaning to try that with some frankincense tears I bought for the purpose for more than a year, but still have not actually found it at the top of the priority list. Maybe at the weekend . . . if I get to it and learn anything I’ll report back.

 

[JEBeasley]

The 1yr old frankincense tincture I made is sticky when applied directly to the skin but when I add it to a composition the stickiness is not, at all, apparent. I've nearly depleted mine, when I make another I will make two: one with IPM and one with alcohol. Although, I should also add that I have several different "grades" and types of frankincense (assuming they actually are from different regions and tree types) and the highest grades appear to have far fewer impurities than the other grades. I'm sure some types have more gums than others... they do smell different from one another. Hojary, Aden and Ethiopian appear to be the cleanest of detritus but that doesn't mean they have less gums.

 

[islearom]

Bill, one advantage for dissolving Frank raw resin in Sandalwood. as Luigi_g describes, might be, for example, the benefit provided for those who desire to have a blend of the scents of sandalwood and frankincense, and are not especially concerned about the additional fixation value of the Frankincense, over that provided by the Sandalwood by itself alone.

I know that the first thing I generally add to the tincture (or ethanol solution, however it is to be called) of frankincense that I prepare, is Sandalwood oil. I like the aromatic characteristic of that combination very much (and that aside from consideration of any fixation benefit that either or both may provide). Any fixative benefit that such a blend provides to a formula that incorporates those two materials is an added value (in the case I describe here). The material that Luigi_g mentions also would be of value to those who desire to avoid the use of IPM...for whatever reason that involves the desire to avoid the use of IPM (I think it best to leave that one at that).

By way of an entirely uncontrolled experiment, though to even refer to the situation as an "experiment" would be to use that term in the loosest of terms, I have found that tears of Frankincense do have at least some limited capable extent of solubility in Sandalwood (ie. without even macerating). I really am referring to an unintended situation where I had some tears of Hojary in my car just to see if the heat of the parked car would cause a release of the oils in the tears into the car interior (whatever release did take place twas not noticeable to me). But by happenstance, in the same compartment in my car, I had a small vial with some New Caledonia sandalwood oil, closed by a wrong fitting top, with a result of a layer of sandalwood oil in a plastic dish which held both the frank tears and the leaking vial of sandalwood oil. After some while of the two frank tears sitting in a thin layer of spilled sandalwood oil, I noticed that the outer surface of the frank had softened to a sticky gummy consistency (it having drawn into it some of the sandal oil), and the scent was, well as might be expected, a combination of sandalwood and frankincense, but interestingly, the aroma of the frankincense raw resin was much stronger and true to raw form than most other versions of frankincense. To put it another way, the frankincense aroma of the frankincense tear was now much stronger than the scent of the formerly dried tears (and not to be confused with the fact that the aroma was of course as well modified in a frank/sandalwood combination direction).

I have yet to go "all the way" and place frank tears entirely submerged in Sandalwood EO. When I get around to trying such a blend in a more properly controlled manner, I will this time (edit to clarify: first crush and then) macerate the tears (as Luigi_g mentions such in his procedure), and as well, probably change the location for the infusion from the interior of my car to the interior of my residence. Reading Luigi_g's post , I do get the impression that the combination has some good potential possibilities for the sake of perfumers such as myself.

 

[Elise12]

Irina,

resinoids are essentially concretes, hydrocarbon solvents are used, hexane, petroleum ether....

there are also washed resinoids, which are ethanol washed products of the above first extractions

Hey, I'm trying to do a myrrha resinoid but I still have unsoluble particules when I do a 10% dilution in alcohol. For the extraction of the gumm I'm only using ethyl alcohol. I found several qualities called Myrrha resinoid WASHED. Does anyone have any idea about the process and how they are doing to have a translucent solution ?