When a formulation calls for "resinoid"...

[JEBeasley]

Is the resinoid added to the rest of the solution as a solid or is the resinoid dissolved and diluted per some standard dilution? Is there any reliable way to determine how much resinoid is equal to raw resin or is there a reliable measurement for replacing the resinoid with essential oil? Reason I'm asking is there are a few formulations I'm trying that require olibanum resinoid that I don't currently have but I DO HAVE many types of raw frankincense resin and several essential oils of olibanum.

 

[David Ruskin]

A resinoid is usually a dilution of something that is too viscous and difficult to use. Why not regard it as a Raw Material that has its own properties and leave it at that? If you are happy with using Olibanum Resin, why get anything else?

 

[Irina]

Justin, by the raw resins, do you mean the pieces that are used to burn as incense?
I see a few problems. The olfactory profile of different materials is well, they smell different There are also solubility issues, raw resins contain more 'sticky' materials and a higher % of sensitizers. They also may be different grades and mixed with other resins. You will also probably have a harder time to get an analysis of the raw resins, than of the essential oils. But it is only relevant if you want to mind safety, IFRA and so on.

 

[pkiler]

Justin, Frank Resinoid is pretty cheap:

http://www.nematfragrances.com/products/essential_moreinfo.php?pid=P141&cid=C01

PK

 

[JEBeasley]

Justin, Frank Resinoid is pretty cheap:

http://www.nematfragrances.com/products/essential_moreinfo.php?pid=P141&cid=C01

PK

All very helpful and thoughtful replies, I appreciate it.

David, I probably will stick to the EO as I have it but I wasn't sure if the resinoid provides something the EO doesn't - stronger fixative effect?

Irina, I am referring to the incense form as "raw", I have about seven different incense varieties/grades and they are different from one another but appear to be very consistent in appearance and smell from piece to piece. I did not consider being able to replicate the odor profile, it does make sense that if the material isn't standardized that it's variability may pose a problem. I have a 20% raw resin tincture that I've had for almost a year, it is fairly sticky on it's own but once it has been diluted down to 10% or 5% the stickiness isn't apparent.

Paul, I'm not concerned about price, I just wanted to know if I can use what I have for the time being as a replacement until I buy some in my next order and not to mention, it's just good information to know.

 

[David Ruskin]

You didn't mention Essential oil. You compared a Resin with a Resinoid; both have similar properties. The Essential Oil, being steam distilled is different.

 

[Irina]

David, do you happen to know what solvent is usually used for a frankincense resinoid?

 

[luigi_g]

Irina,

resinoids are essentially concretes, hydrocarbon solvents are used, hexane, petroleum ether....

there are also washed resinoids, which are ethanol washed products of the above first extractions

 

[pkiler]

I'm afraid that you can get Frank Resinoid from many supplier in a whole host of dilutants.

If you look at the suppliers tab here:
http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rs1048342.html

you can find more dilutants than I've seen for almost any other material.

PK

 

[Irina]

Irina,

resinoids are essentially concretes, hydrocarbon solvents are used, hexane, petroleum ether....

there are also washed resinoids, which are ethanol washed products of the above first extractions

Thank you, Luigi. I am aware of the basics, was just wondering if David (or anyone else) had some insight of what exact solvent is usually used in frankincense resinoid? Those specifics are not easy to find.
The only supplier that could provide me with information mentioned MPG (mono propylene glycol).
p.s. which is weird as that is not a hydrocarbon solvent.

 

[luigi_g]

hi Irina,

am thinking the MPG was added as a carrier, frankincense resinoid, and the like are not pourable.

as too the exact solvent, I suppose it would depend on who / where is is made.
but I would bet most all now use hexane.

the frankincense resinoid I use is hard, like a block of resin,
I have some nice opoponax resiond washed from biolandes, that will pour - kind-of when warmed...

 

[Irina]

That's what I thought too, Luigi. I have several kinds, most are hard like yours, unless something else is added and that is mostly mentioned, like 50% MPG etc. CO2 extracts are also liquid.
But I was just thinking out loud: would there be any traces of the initial solvent left? If so, which one and does it impact the organoleptics?

 

[David Ruskin]

David, do you happen to know what solvent is usually used for a frankincense resinoid?

Either Benzyl Benzoate or Benzyl Alcohol.

 

[David Ruskin]

Thank you, Luigi. I am aware of the basics, was just wondering if David (or anyone else) had some insight of what exact solvent is usually used in frankincense resinoid? Those specifics are not easy to find.
The only supplier that could provide me with information mentioned MPG (mono propylene glycol).
p.s. which is weird as that is not a hydrocarbon solvent.

MPG wouldn't work.

 

[luigi_g]

That's what I thought too, Luigi. I have several kinds, most are hard like yours, unless something else is added and that is mostly mentioned, like 50% MPG etc. CO2 extracts are also liquid.
But I was just thinking out loud: would there be any traces of the initial solvent left? If so, which one and does it impact the organoleptics?

good question Irina,

there is little info to find, I would certainly think there is a very tiny amount of hexane or the other hydro-carbon solvent remaining
albeit trace amounts as most absolutes have, although since most resiniods can tolerate more heat than say a delicate floral absolute
there could be less.
the washed resionds usually have a higher amount of ethanol remaining, usually under 2%, I believe that method helps the viscosity.

as an example the opoponax washed from biolandes lists Residual solvent : ethanol < 2%
www.biolandes.com/ouverturepdf.php?file=F1830.pdf&lg=en

 

[luigi_g]

Either Benzyl Benzoate or Benzyl Alcohol.

David,

you are refering to Benzyl Benzoate or Benzyl Alcohol as a solvent when working with frankincense resinoid
rather than Benzyl Benzoate or Benzyl Alcohol used as a solvent to produce frankincense resinoid from the raw resin, yes?

 

[Irina]

David, thank you.
Sorry for the confusion: I meant the solvent that is used on the gum resin to make the resinoid. Luigi kindly addressed this.

Thank you, Luigi, that's what I thought.

 

[JEBeasley]

You didn't mention Essential oil. You compared a Resin with a Resinoid; both have similar properties. The Essential Oil, being steam distilled is different.

Sorry, I'm not understanding your question, I thought I did mention EO in post #5 above. I do have several different frankincense EO's including a couple of CO2 extracts... Are the EO's a direct 1:1 replacement for resinoid?

 

[David Ruskin]

Sorry, I'm not understanding your question, I thought I did mention EO in post #5 above. I do have several different frankincense EO's including a couple of CO2 extracts... Are the EO's a direct 1:1 replacement for resinoid?

In your first post (no.1) you only mentioned Resinoids and Resins. I answered that post. Essential Oils as they are steam distilled tend to be more volatile than the equivalent resinoid. Olibanum Oil is a Top note, Olibanum Resinoid is a Middle/Back note. So No, an Essential Oil is not a 1:1 replacement.

 

[David Ruskin]

David,

you are refering to Benzyl Benzoate or Benzyl Alcohol as a solvent when working with frankincense resinoid
rather than Benzyl Benzoate or Benzyl Alcohol used as a solvent to produce frankincense resinoid from the raw resin, yes?

Benzyl Benzoate or Benzyl Alcohol are the solvents used to produce the Resinoid.

 

[JEBeasley]

In your first post (no.1) you only mentioned Resinoids and Resins. I answered that post. Essential Oils as they are steam distilled tend to be more volatile than the equivalent resinoid. Olibanum Oil is a Top note, Olibanum Resinoid is a Middle/Back note. So No, an Essential Oil is not a 1:1 replacement.

Ok, thanks for clarifying.

 

[islearom]

Could the CO2 extracts of Frankincense be considered to be a version, or variation, of a frankincense resinoid?

 

[pkiler]

Surely, you could think of them as a resinoid, by odor, but not by longevity.

PK

 

[islearom]

Paul, your comment does describe the similarities and differences of the two types of extracts very well.

 

[pkiler]

You know what else I do, is to dissolve raw Frank resin in pure alcohol. It's rather sticky, but it's also quite long-lived.

PK

 

[David Ruskin]

Could the CO2 extracts of Frankincense be considered to be a version, or variation, of a frankincense resinoid?

For me CO2 extracts are even more volatile than the standard Essential Oil (steam distilled). Usually very true to the starting material but don't last very long.

 

[islearom]

I do find that the tinctures that I have made from the raw exudate are closer to the original material than any Essential Oil SD (by far), as well as any CO2's that I have so far had acquaintance. I have yet to obtain a an EO that was produced exclusively by hydro-distillation (it is my understanding that most Frank. EO's are produced by a combination steam and hydro-distillation technique.). I suspect that the CO2 and tincture versions would still be superior to the output of an entirely hydro-distillation.

 

[Chris Bartlett]

Is the resinoid added to the rest of the solution as a solid or is the resinoid dissolved and diluted per some standard dilution? Is there any reliable way to determine how much resinoid is equal to raw resin or is there a reliable measurement for replacing the resinoid with essential oil? Reason I'm asking is there are a few formulations I'm trying that require olibanum resinoid that I don't currently have but I DO HAVE many types of raw frankincense resin and several essential oils of olibanum.

In most commercial perfume production resinoids tend to be added pre-diluted in a solvent to make them mobile and in my experience I would add TEC (TriEthyl Citrate) and IPM (IsoPropyl Myristate) to the two David suggested: these have become much more popular in view of IFRA restrictions on Benzyl benzoate and Benzyl Alcohol and are also more nearly odourless than those. IFF make an Olibanum Resinoid in TEC and also in IPM both at 30% - I have the former and there is also a version at 50% which De Hekserij stock (and I have some of that too).

The reason for that is that most commercial perfume is blended by robots, so mobile liquids are very much preferred. As you are (so far as I know) not a robot, you don’t have to do it that way, though personally (despite also not being a robot, so far as I know) I prefer the pre-diluted stuff too. With a lot of solids I find that if you simply put them in at the start of the blending process and swirl between additions of other materials, you’ll usually find they’ve dissolved completely anyway by the time you’ve finished: the reason I don’t do that with resinoids is because being sticky they are difficult to weigh out accurately.

You certainly can’t replace olibanum (frankincense) resinoid with the essential oil - as David and others have said they are radically different in both odour profile and fixation. The only downside to replacing resinoid with raw resin is that the latter may contain elements that are not ethanol soluble (such as gum), where the former generally will not.

See my extensive post on the definitions of terms for natural materials for details of the difference between a gum-resin, oleoresin and a resinoid.

 

[Chris Bartlett]

I have yet to obtain a an EO that was produced exclusively by hydro-distillation (it is my understanding that most Frank. EO's are produced by a combination steam and hydro-distillation technique.). I suspect that the CO2 and tincture versions would still be superior to the output of an entirely hydro-distillation.

Just to clarify this: hydro-distillation is a term meaning any of: steam-distilled, water-distilled or produced by a combination of both. Again I’ve explained these terms in my post covering all the main extraction techniques for natural materials.

 

[islearom]

Thanks for the clarification Chris...so...I think I meant to say "by a combination steam and water distillation technique.". I think.

 

[Chris Bartlett]

Thanks for the clarification Chris...so...I think I meant to say "by a combination steam and water distillation technique.". I think.

I’m not certain what the usual method for distillation of resins is, but I’d have guessed steam rather than water or combination, but it’s only a guess: someone else may well know better (I checked my Arctander and it’s not clear and I don’t seem to have a Lawrence article on this material at all unfortunately).

 

[JEBeasley]

In most commercial perfume production resinoids tend to be added pre-diluted in a solvent to make them mobile and in my experience I would add TEC (TriEthyl Citrate) and IPM (IsoPropyl Myristate) to the two David suggested: these have become much more popular in view of IFRA restrictions on Benzyl benzoate and Benzyl Alcohol and are also more nearly odourless than those. IFF make an Olibanum Resinoid in TEC and also in IPM both at 30% - I have the former and there is also a version at 50% which De Hekserij stock (and I have some of that too).

The reason for that is that most commercial perfume is blended by robots, so mobile liquids are very much preferred. As you are (so far as I know) not a robot, you don’t have to do it that way, though personally (despite also not being a robot, so far as I know) I prefer the pre-diluted stuff too. With a lot of solids I find that if you simply put them in at the start of the blending process and swirl between additions of other materials, you’ll usually find they’ve dissolved completely anyway by the time you’ve finished: the reason I don’t do that with resinoids is because being sticky they are difficult to weigh out accurately.

You certainly can’t replace olibanum (frankincense) resinoid with the essential oil - as David and others have said they are radically different in both odour profile and fixation. The only downside to replacing resinoid with raw resin is that the latter may contain elements that are not ethanol soluble (such as gum), where the former generally will not.

See my extensive post on the definitions of terms for natural materials for details of the difference between a gum-resin, oleoresin and a resinoid.

Thank you for taking the time to sum this up.

So, perhaps a way of getting a reliable tincture from the resin would be to measure out resin and alcohol in equal weights, allow the resin to dissolve, decant the liquid and weigh what is left behind (undissolved solids). Would this not give us a ROUGH estimate, by maths, of how much more resin we should add to the remaining tincture in order to have a 50% tincture of frankincense resin?

 

[islearom]

JEBeasley, I'm not certain on this, and will leave the technical details as to the arithmetic calculations to the individual of whom you had inquired (ie. Chris), but I might suggest that you also try a one part Frank to two part alcohol solution, for the sake of comparison to your mentioned one to one ratio solution. Only to be certain that you do in fact have all of the resin dissolved (the insoluble gum will of course separate). Mentioning this mainly as Arctander suggests a ten percent solution of Frankincense (which for my purposes, would be an excessive amount of alcohol), and I wonder if a one to one ratio of Frankincense to alcohol would include an adequate amount of alcohol for full dissolution of the resin (maybe it would?).

Or, maybe you have already tried various ratios of Frank to Alcohol, in which case I would appreciate hearing from you of your results with the varying ratios, as regards the dissolution of the raw Frankincense resins.

 

[JEBeasley]

I have a Frankincense tincture that is about a year old. I put the resin inside of an electric spice grinder and stuck it in the freezer for an hour or two before grinding it to powder. I used 11g of resin to 50g of alcohol, from what I can remember it looks as though about 1/2 of the solids are left after one year of maceration but I can't be sure unless I extract all of the alcoholic solution and weigh it and then it would only be in the ball-park because I can't get all of the alcohol out without distilling and I don't have that capacity yet.

 

[islearom]

I would think that at the quantities of resin and alcohol that you have used, it is probably safe to assume that all resins have dissolved at this point. There is a consideration of the possibility that some of the volatile compounds can conceivably have merged back into the insoluble material, though those sort of technical details go beyond my own abilities as well as concern. I have found a dissolved frank in ethanol solution, with insoluble material filtered out, along the lines of what you describe as having created, to be quite adequate for my purposes.

 

[Chris Bartlett]

Thank you for taking the time to sum this up.

So, perhaps a way of getting a reliable tincture from the resin would be to measure out resin and alcohol in equal weights, allow the resin to dissolve, decant the liquid and weigh what is left behind (undissolved solids). Would this not give us a ROUGH estimate, by maths, of how much more resin we should add to the remaining tincture in order to have a 50% tincture of frankincense resin?

Yes I think that’s a valid way to proceed and should yield comparable results. I haven’t tried it however so can’t be sure that you’d get the resin into solution at that concentration.

There is also another problem in comparing with the resinoid though, which is that the gum portion (water soluble and missing from the resinoid) will likely dissolve in the ethanol at least partially. My belief is that there isn’t a great deal of gum in olibanum so I wouldn’t expect a significant problem in this case, but it might make a big difference with other resins, so I mention it in case anyone reading might extrapolate the technique to a resin with a high gum portion.

 

[Chris Bartlett]

I’m not certain what the usual method for distillation of resins is, but I’d have guessed steam rather than water or combination, but it’s only a guess: someone else may well know better (I checked my Arctander and it’s not clear and I don’t seem to have a Lawrence article on this material at all unfortunately).

I’ve had a detailed PM on this which has convinced me I’ve got this completely wrong: I now think resins are normally water distilled (or possibly combination - meaning the water is heated by blowing steam through it) and not steam distilled at all.

Steam distillation means that the product being distilled does not touch the water but has steam passed through it: it’s a common technique for many woods and some soft plant material. Now that it’s been pointed out to me it’s obvious that if you pass steam through a resinoid it will melt into a gloopy mess that then won’t distill properly at all.

Funny how things seems perfectly clear only after they’ve been pointed out isn’t it? Many thanks for that new bit of understanding, I’ll leave you to identify yourself or not as you like!

 

[Bill Roberts]

I certainly don't know distillation of resins but it isn't obvious to me at all that steam distillation must be wrong. I don't see why you couldn't have good mass transfer of volatile material from the gloopy mess to the vapor phase in steam. Though whether the gloop pieces would naturally churn, thus bringing fresh concentrated material to the surface, or some mechanism would be required, I have no idea. It sounds like one of those things that would take experimentation to know for sure whether it's possible or not.

However I haven't read your PM of course so perhaps there's more to it.

EDIT: Quick Googling of course yields only shallow "knowledge" but this supports steam distillation of resins as being at least possible, and in this case recommended: http://archive.org/stream/distillationofre00schwrich/distillationofre00schwrich_djvu.txt

 

[Chris Bartlett]

Oh fascinating! Clearly a good deal more complicated than I’d realised.

If I’ve understood both sets of info correctly the key difference is that in once case they were talking about conventional steam distillation to obtain EOs such as Olibanum at normal pressure and in the other case they are talking about steam distillation for fractionation, using sufficient pressure that the steam is so hot as to completely vaporise the resin - in the latter case the gloop wouldn’t be a problem, in the former it would.

I think.

 

[pkiler]

My experience with Frankincense tears tinctured in alcohol, was that since the Frankincense tears fully dissolved into the alcohol, it was more of a dilution, than a tincture. Yes, it is very sticky though.

PK