What's a good alternative to Lyral / Leerall?

[Logocracy]

Given its restrictions, what is everyone using as a replacement?

Also separate unrelated side question: Is there a difference between Floralol (IFF), Florol (Firmenich), Florosa (Givaduan), Florhydral (Givaudan)and Florosol?

 

[PeeWee678]

I tried the Lyral base from DirectPCW which was extremely disappointing; substantivity- as well as scentwise.
I placed it in my "inferior" box. Not kidding.

I think Florosa and, to a lesser extent, Mayol come relatively (!) close to Lyral scent wise but are lacking in substantivity. So IMO they can only act as a replacement if you do not need the substantivity. Lyral is really king here and outshines most materials by far in this respect.

Others adviced Bourgeonal or Hivernal Neo for example but I just don't see how those can be compared to Lyral in any way.
Most muguet materials are too thin, ozonic, aldehydic (or simply too different) compared to Lyral.

Hekserij writes this about the similar products ("synonyms" according to TGSC):

"similar products from other suppliers are Floriffol (IFF), Florol (Firmenich) and Pyranol (BASF) - although minor differences in odor may occur due to slightly different processes."

 

[chyprefresh]

Hydroxycitronellal is just as good in many ways imo, but it too is allergenic and restricted, though not nearly as much. Lilyflore is quite nice but leans more aquatic and not as versatile, and then Florol but there's issues with tenacity and it's less diffusive. Cis-3-Hexenyl Salicylate is another great choice for a muguet enhancer, but not a replacement for Lyral.

 

[ourmess]

Whoever finally comes up with a 1:1 replacement for Lyral will become very wealthy, very quickly.

 

[chyprefresh]

Whoever finally comes up with a 1:1 replacement for Lyral will become very wealthy, very quickly.

It exists, but it's captive. Givaudan - Mahonial.

 

[Saraiva]

Good morning
Almost all top products are captive, they only cease to be when factories have better substitutes.
I was not surprised that the IFRA restricted the use of Lilial and Lyral to make it impossible for small independent perfumers to compete.
After all, who "invented" the IFRA, weren't it the big companies producing perfumery products and perfume manufacturers?
Let's not be naive, there isn't a single chemical that doesn't do harm, it all depends on the dose, if they were natural they would grow on trees... or not?🤔

 

[Logocracy]

What about 'Beyond Lilyflore' which is a blend of Mayol, Florol and Lilyflore. Has anyone used this as a successful Lyral replacer?

 

[mnitabach]

What about 'Beyond Lilyflore' which is a blend of Mayol, Florol and Lilyflore. Has anyone used this as a successful Lyral replacer?

I have done a lot of experimenting with Beyond Lilyflore. IME & IMO, it is not in the slightest bit having effects like a lyral replacer. It is much more opaque than lyral, scent character is dryer, and it's nowhere near as tenacious. This material is AFAIK about 10% lilyflore, and if you want some transparent floralcy/floral volume/muguet effects, lilyflore on its own can only be used in the range of fractions of 1% of formula.

 

[fragrantregard]

I was not surprised that the IFRA restricted the use of Lilial and Lyral to make it impossible for small independent perfumers to compete.
After all, who "invented" the IFRA, weren't it the big companies producing perfumery products and perfume manufacturers?

This isn't remotely accurate.

Captives exist to protect business (to stop other houses doing what many on this forum want to do: copy everything via GC). IFRA restricts materials because they are sensitizers. We should be glad they exist, incidentally; governments and large institutions like the EU are far more trigger happy to produce legislation, always written by people far less knowledgeable than those working for RIFM. Without IFRA data, many, many more materials might already have been banned. There were discussions to do so with salicylates, for example. IFRA, as annoying as it is, helps to preserve the use of these materials. IFRA regulations are almost always the easiest to comply with, when compared with local regulations in Korea, or the EU, or China, etc.

If you are creating perfumes for yourself, use lyral and lilial. No one is stopping you, and they are widely available. There are far larger structural reasons why small players can't compete with large houses.

 

[jsweet]

This isn't remotely accurate.

Captives exist to protect business (to stop other houses doing what many on this forum want to do: copy everything via GC). IFRA restricts materials because they are sensitizers.

I would bet money that IFRA has been raided as part of the international cartel investigation announced two months back.

Press corner

Highlights, press releases and speeches

ec.europa.eu

On 7 March 2023, the European Commission carried out unannounced inspections at the premises of companies and an association active in the fragrance industry in various Member States.

...

The Commission has concerns that companies and an association in the fragrance industry worldwide may have violated EU antitrust rules that prohibit cartels and restrictive business practices (Article 101 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union).

IFRA restricts materials for many reasons, based on the varying interests of its private sector members, and not just for one reason. The idea that IFRA only has the public interest in mind is false. IFRA is about protecting profits of members, and this probably has violated international antitrust regulations.

 

[fragrantregard]

Whether or not they were raided is entirely immaterial. The investigation is looking into, to quote the Swiss agency which first made it public, whether or not fragrances houses "coordinated their pricing policy, prohibited their competitors from supplying certain customers and limited the production of certain fragrances." Utterly unrelated to the subject at hand.

The claim was IFRA restricted materials to "make it impossible for small independent perfumers to compete," for which there is no evidence; there is clear evidence, however, that the EU has been even more strict in it's regulation of LILIAL than IFRA. I didn't say "IFRA only has the public interest in mind," only that it often prevents worse regulations from other legislators, which is clearly true. What is more, virtually none who works at any large house reads this forum; they certainly aren't afraid of 'competing with independent perfumers.'

 

[fragrantregard]

I should add Mahonial certainly isn't a 1:1 replacement. It is more powerful, and more similar to bourgeonal / florhydral than lilial itself.

 

[jsweet]

I was responding to you saying that "IFRA restricts materials because they are skin sensitizers." They have other motivations. I can't see how their anti-competitive behavior is irrelevant to the topic at hand, which is their impact on independent perfumers. They are alleged to have colluded to set prices, which directly affects us. They market alternatives to restricted products directly to us. And those of us who wish to patent and market our own molecules (which there are) have excessive barriers to competing with the big IFRA members.