What was in the Irrozol base?

[RomanB]

Hello, friends! Is someone familiar with the Irrozol base - maybe you have a formula, or a GC result, or a description of it? All that I can find that it is a fantasy iris flower base, with aldehydes and notes of several other flowers. It was actual in 1920-1930's. Cost was a little less than Firmenich's Iralia. There is a formula of something similar in Winter's handbook, but as usual with his formulas it is a very rough sketch.

 

[pkiler]

I'd ask Octavian Coifan...

 

[RomanB]

I'd ask Octavian Coifan...

I'll try to write him, thank you.

 

[msaintdizier]

From a book of 1930 from french chemist Colas.

Iriso base...

 

[RomanB]

From a book of 1930 from french chemist Colas.
View attachment 312283
Iriso base...

Thank you! It seems that original Irrozol base utilized several newly-made substances with orris odor from 1920-s.

Orris note is interesting: Arctander writes of so many substances with it, but most are not produced nowadays. Also there are several Soviet patents describing substances with musky-orris and labdanum-orris odors.

 

[msaintdizier]

Pay attention to what perfume houses say about their bases. They tend to overdo it. Extensive research at the library of the Faculty of Pharmacy in Paris on old books by recognized chemists has shown that the bases used at the time had relatively few components. It is the same for the formulas of perfumes in particular those of Guerlain and Coty which prefigure modernity.

 

[msaintdizier]

Try this base from Colas with orris alcohol irone pure methyl ionone cedrol vetiver it is beautifull and expensive as perfume was at that time

 

[msaintdizier]

Look at this modern skeleton of Shalimar very few ingrédients

 

[mnitabach]

What is "orris alcohol"?

 

[msaintdizier]

Colas write in bottom of the page to make orris alcohol u you have to macerate 5 liters of alcohol with 1 kilo of orris butter and 400 grams of iris resinoid during 8 days. Then chill and strain

 

[mnitabach]

Colas write in bottom of the page to make orris alcohol u you have to macerate 5 liters of alcohol with 1 kilo of orris butter and 400 grams of iris resinoid during 8 days. Then chill and strain

OK well that ain't happening! 😹 😹 😹

 

[msaintdizier]

Iris absolute is not so expensive in France. This is a very good company for the supply of professional essential oil. 72 euros for 30 grams....

Absolue d'iris par Fragrance Création

Absolue d'iris, dilué 10%, flacon de 30gr, utilisé en parfumerie

www.quosentis.com

 

[msaintdizier]

Look how they sell it in USA / 235 dollars for 25 grams......

Orris Butter 15% Irone (Biolandes) – Perfumer Supply House

perfumersupplyhouse.com

 

[dcampen]

Iris absolute is not so expensive in France. This is a very good company for the supply of professional essential oil. 72 euros for 30 grams....

Absolue d'iris par Fragrance Création

Absolue d'iris, dilué 10%, flacon de 30gr, utilisé en parfumerie

www.quosentis.com

My French is not so good (non-existant) but what does "dliue' 10%" mean?

 

[Alex F.]

Iris absolute is not so expensive in France. This is a very good company for the supply of professional essential oil. 72 euros for 30 grams....

Absolue d'iris par Fragrance Création

Absolue d'iris, dilué 10%, flacon de 30gr, utilisé en parfumerie

www.quosentis.com

Look how they sell it in USA / 235 dollars for 25 grams......

Orris Butter 15% Irone (Biolandes) – Perfumer Supply House

perfumersupplyhouse.com

My French is not so good (non-existant) but what does "dliue' 10%" mean?

Regardless of whether that last remark was serious or facetious, it points out the error in the comparison: €72 for 30g of orris butter diluted to 10% (which is indeed what Quosentis is offering) vs. $235 for 25g of what looks like pure orris butter, that's €24/g vs. $9.4/g (for 1g, PSH charges $12.5). That's quite the difference in favour of the other side, if the two products are on a similar quality level.

 

[pkiler]

Pay attention to what perfume houses say about their bases. They tend to overdo it. Extensive research at the library of the Faculty of Pharmacy in Paris on old books by recognized chemists has shown that the bases used at the time had relatively few components. It is the same for the formulas of perfumes in particular those of Guerlain and Coty which prefigure modernity.

I'm just not really buying what you're selling.
Original Jicky was 17 lines, but 14 of those are naturals. And those three single molecules were a fairly small portion of the formula.
The fewer naturals in the formula, the longer the formula to make up for the loss with single molecules.

I just don't think that you've really seen actual period formulas.
I think that you are making a lot of guesses and assumptions, and base all of this on poor and second hand information.

I applaud what you are doing, but some of your information is not correct.

 

[msaintdizier]

I

Regardless of whether that last remark was serious or facetious, it points out the error in the comparison: €72 for 30g of orris butter diluted to 10% (which is indeed what Quosentis is offering) vs. $235 for 25g of what looks like pure orris butter, that's €24/g vs. $9.4/g (for 1g, PSH charges $12.5). That's quite the difference in favour of the other side, if the two products are on a similar quality level.

It is 30 grams - 10% so 27 grams

 

[msaintdizier]

BIU Santé Pharmacie

Voir l’article pour en savoir plus.

u-paris.fr

 

[msaintdizier]

Welcome in Paris to meet us and to talk about perfume. I dont sell anything. Just sharing knowledge. All my informations are true. U Will meet scientists and we will go to the BIU library to read antics books... I Will stop to publish informations i think is better for my health....

 

[msaintdizier]

Located on the university site of the Observatory, the BIU Santé Pharmacie is a national reference library in the field of pharmacy, cosmetology, life sciences and chemistry. It offers 214 work places, offers vast current documentary resources and a remarkable heritage fund to an audience of students, teacher-researchers and health professionals.

 

[ourmess]

It is 30 grams - 10% so 27 grams

30 grams of "orris butter 10%" means 3 grams of orris butter and 27 grams of solvent.

 

[msaintdizier]

Regardless of whether that last remark was serious or facetious, it points out the error in the comparison: €72 for 30g of orris butter diluted to 10% (which is indeed what Quosentis is offering) vs. $235 for 25g of what looks like pure orris butter, that's €24/g vs. $9.4/g (for 1g, PSH charges $12.5). That's quite the difference in favour of the other side, if the two products are on a similar quality level.

It is 30 grams - 10% so 27 gram. U can ask to this company.

 

[pkiler]

Welcome in Paris to meet us and to talk about perfume. I dont sell anything. Just sharing knowledge. All my informations are true. U Will meet scientists and we will go to the BIU library to read antics books... I Will stop to publish informations i think is better for my health....

What you don't understand is that my library of historical Perfumery formulas is likely far far better than the one that you reference.

And don't stop posting on my account, as many people here are very much enjoying your posts. But just don't assume that you are getting the correct information all the time. Honestly, I am surprised that you have decided to stop posting, with such a small amount of resistance from me.

 

[steventeddy]

It is 30 grams - 10% so 27 gram. U can ask to this company.

The SDS provided by Quosentis at https://www.quosentis.com/Files/124793/212502271913985.pdf has Ethyl Alcohol at more than 50% of the mixture (Section 3, Composition/Information on Ingredient on Page 2), so it has to be the case that it's 10% orris butter, 90% ethyl alcohol rather than 10% alcohol 90% orris butter as you claim.

 

[pkiler]

It is very difficult to buy anything other than a 10% dilution from Quosentis, making their entire product line worthless to me. I'm sorry that I spent my money there to have nothing usable to show for it.

 

[Alex F.]

It is 30 grams - 10% so 27 gram. U can ask to this company.

It's been pointed out by others, too - looking at the website, it's quite obvious that it's 90% of alcohol. The product "est proposé dilué à 10% sur de l’alcool surfin de parfumerie pour le rendre plus aisé au dosage". What would be the point of adding 10% of alcohol? As pkiler says, and as a quick look at the product-line shows: most/all of their products are offered diluted to 10% in "perfumer's alcohol" (even "v/v", if the data sheet is correct in that regard). I can do that myself, and I'd do w/w, which I'd expect from a professional.

By the way, don't let a bit of criticism get to your health. I love it when people share information, but I feel compelled to say something when it's incorrect (re. the orris butter) or not as good as they think it is (the formulas).

 

[jfrater]

If you wish to purchase the original (as close as I can legally get) you can do so here: Fraterworks Irrozol 908514.

Irrozol is incredibly complex, featuring many bases which, in turn, feature other bases. But the end result (as you will see if you purchase it) is incredibly beautiful and unlike anything else. It is also rich with naturals (including an eyewatering amount of Mysore Sandalwood).

 

[msaintdizier]

It's been pointed out by others, too - looking at the website, it's quite obvious that it's 90% of alcohol. The product "est proposé dilué à 10% sur de l’alcool surfin de parfumerie pour le rendre plus aisé au dosage". What would be the point of adding 10% of alcohol? As pkiler says, and as a quick look at the product-line shows: most/all of their products are offered diluted to 10% in "perfumer's alcohol" (even "v/v", if the data sheet is correct in that regard). I can do that myself, and I'd do w/w, which I'd expect from a professional.

By the way, don't let a bit of criticism get to your health. I love it when people share information, but I feel compelled to say something when it's incorrect (re. the orris butter) or not as good as they think it is (the formulas).

It is not 10% dilution but i will not waste my time. It is a good supplier in France. All product i bought from her are 90% with 10% alcohol...

 

[msaintdizier]

It is not 10% dilution but i will not waste my time. It is a good supplier in France. All product i bought from her are 90% with 10% alcohol...

 

[msaintdizier]

https://www.quosentis.com/tonquitone-30-gr-c2x26290115... Same than other product 10% alcohol

 

[msaintdizier]

For the mousse de saxe i wait the agreement from my friend in synarome to give it freely next week on instagram.

 

[msaintdizier]

all same 90%

 

[msaintdizier]

For irrozol the osmotheque in Versailles has a batch in his collection.

 

[pkiler]

The dilution issue at Quosentis will get figured out in the end. It is stated in their documentation.

 

[jfrater]

For irrozol the osmotheque in Versailles has a batch in his collection.

My Irrozol base is from the original formula (including all the sub bases). It is identical to the original (aside from small amounts of musk ambrette which I have replaced with alternatives) and is IFRA safe at up to 20% of the finished product - a huge dose!

 

[nicok]

My Irrozol base is from the original formula (including all the sub bases). It is identical to the original (aside from small amounts of musk ambrette which I have replaced with alternatives) and is IFRA safe at up to 20% of the finished product - a huge dose!

Jamie, how did you find the original formula and all the rest of the historical bases if I may ask?

 

[jfrater]

Jamie, how did you find the original formula and all the rest of the historical bases if I may ask?

I can't really disclose sorry.