What are your thoughts on the "original" niche houses? How are they holding up in light of the recent profileration of indie & artisanal brands?

[slpfrsly]

I'd be interested to see what people think about some of the early niche brands that cropped up towards the end of the last century. I know there is some wrangling over the delineation between niche and designer in relation to fragrances today, but it seems much easier to draw the line between the two categories when thinking about fragrances in the 1990s, for example.

As you can see from the list below, I'm primarily thinking about houses that were formed towards the latter part of the previous century (I am not really thinking about Guerlain, for example, although that's not to say they are barred from the discussion). It should go without saying, but by no means is this list exhaustive, either:

- Serge Lutens
- Lorenzo Villoresi
- L'Artisan Parfumeur
- Frederic Malle
- Creed (!)
- Annick Goutal
- James Heeley
- Tauer (I mulled the last two over, as Tauer in particular seems to be right on the cusp of where the old gets replaced by the new, in all sorts of different ways)

Personally, I'm a huge fan of Villoresi's fragrances. If I had to pick just one house or perfumer to wear, I think it would be Villoresi. He manages to capture a timelessness in his scents, marrying oriental notes with western sensibilities, in a way that just chimes with what I want and like in a perfume. I also generally enjoy Lutens' fragrances, and a fair few of Frederic Malle's as well (I am currently wearing Cologne Indelebile, released in 2015). Much has been written about Creed but I have included them as they are certainly relevant to this particular discussion - as one of the most commercially successful examples to come out of this period of new niche perfume houses, if nothing else. Feel free to bring in houses/perfumers/companies I haven't mentioned but would apply as well. I'm sure there are some good examples I have neglected to mention.

I'm interested to hear how you think these houses, and their fragrances, are holding up in the 2020's. L'Artisan is a house that doesn't seem to receive much in the way of buzz or discussion, for example; however, I am impressed by whatever I try from the house. They have some fantastic older fragrances and their newer scents are admirable as well. However, they went through the (dreaded) rebranding/redesign a few years ago, where the bottles were standardised in colour (which is inferior to the old design, in my opinion). Though I cannot attest to how relevant it may or may not be, there are plenty of instances of people remarking upon L'Artisan reformulating their fragrances as well - and, as is generally the case, not for the better.

Reformulation is a constant issue that afflicts every house and perfume, it seems. How have these older houses/brands managed this issue, relative to designers (Chanel, Dior) or their more recent niche competitors (especially those who don't abide by IFRA, but may have batch variations for different reasons: Slumerhouse, Areej le Dore etc)? And how do these houses and their fragrances stand up in today's market? The world was very different in the 90s - it was very different in the mid to late 2000's! - and that includes aesthetic preferences, as well as what was deemed socially acceptable/desirable. Which houses have stood the test of time? Have any faded away or been left behind? Is this kind of niche house - of luxury and quality that clearly positions itself above mainstream designer perfumery - squeezed between the novelty and freedom that little indie or artisanal houses can offer to the modern customer, and the sheer scale and power of the old designer houses? What about "boutique" fragrances - upmarket, expensive, seemingly 'high end' fragrances that may or may not be better quality than a much cheaper alternative; often derivative of designer or existing fragrances; expensive, often overpriced brands that are exclusively or primarily sold in perfume boutiques and/or luxury department stores? The likes of Roja Dove, Parfums de Marly, and Atelier Cologne have all moved in to the market space that was forged by the original niche brands in the decade or so before. How does that loss of relative distinction impact the fragrances themselves, and your appreciation or enjoyment for them? These are just jumping off points: feel free to share any other insight or opinion you might have.

 

[cacio]

I think the experience of the older brands has been very diverse, usually for brand-specific reason. The niche market is now saturated, but at the same time the size of the market has increased a lot, as the supply of wealthy people who can dump cash without problems. Prices have increased accordingly. So there's still space for a lot of niche. Also, when niche brands are bought by larger corporations, they gain access to wider distribution in certain department stores and marketing opportunities.

I'd say the main original niche are Diptyque, Lutens, and Artisan Parfumer. Diptyque seems to be thriving (thanks to the candle business?), even though I don't like their recent perfumes. Lutens seems to have lost its edge, though it's still around in Europe at least. AP isn't much talked about anymore, but it still seems to be around and the offers are nice.

One older niche brand I continue to be impressed by is Malle-I like most of the recent stuff. It seems to have done well under Estee Lauder.

cacio

 

[hednic]

I'm interested to hear how you think these houses, and their fragrances, are holding up in the 2020's.

I personally feel that the ones below have held up quite well.

Serge Lutens
L'Artisan Parfumeur
Frederic Malle
Creed
Annick Goutal
James Heeley

 

[stuigi]

Excellent question and great responses!

 

[Colbourne]

I try not to let my cynicism get the best of me in these discussions, and while I do have some gripes about the direction of "niche" and the dilution of its meaning in the realm of fragrance, I do feel flashes of optimism in newer releases. Lorenzo Villoresi just so happens to be one of my favorite perfumers: staunchly independent, unyielding to flash-in-the-pan trends, showing integrity. His current formulations and more recent releases are stellar.

Serge Lutens seems to have had some outside forces step in to keep them relevant and hip, and while the newer releases still demonstrate the core spirit of the brand and Sheldrake's approach, I can't help but to think that there are directors behind the scene wanting to put the bottom line first and foremost. It makes sense: its's business, but such is the shape of things in an ever-increasing marketplace. L'Artisan Parfumeur, under the ownership of Puig, has surely made some missteps and have diluted their brand image—along with some of their formulations, but there are still some solid releases coming through. Frederic Malle seems to be the one that many get all bent out of shape over, especially after the LVMH acquisition. I will say I think the reforms to "shadows of their former selves" ruckus on earlier releases is quite overblown, and some newer releases, like Synthetic Jungle are brilliant IMHO.

Creed? Enough has been said about them (chortle!). Annick Goutal. not just Goutal, is a similar story to L'Artisan, it feels to have lost its footing and some reforms are rumored to have been showing significant changes in the overall. I have all older versions. The bottle do-over was dreadful, but I've heard it through the grapevine that they are returning to the rectangular presentation? I do love so many from the house: Sables, Eau de Sud, Nuit Etoilee, Encense Flamboyant, Ambre Fetiche, to name a few. I can't really share a formed opinion on neither Heeley or Tauer.

I think its just so difficult to navigate the marketplace now and separate the wheat from the chaff. Lux "prestiche" brands and houses are popping up like weeds with tepid, very mainstream-smelling scents, and may be obscuring the view from some spectacular newer houses competing for attention. I have my eye on the indies who can make their own business and budget decisions, are freed from the reins and have 100% creative freedom. The only problem is, especially with it being a unregulated playing field here in the States, for every three or four brilliant and creative indies, there seems to be at least 30 that aren't particularly skillful or talented, yet still somehow start a brand and, even more puzzling, gain traction and attention in spite of this.

This is a great topic! Much to discuss here.

 

[PrinceRF]

Referring to brands like Creed, Serge Lutens, Clive Christian, etc., they have held up well and make a great product. Even though many of these types of brands are available in high-end department stores, they are still out of reach (and largely unknown) to the average consumer, and thus appropriately considered niche.

 

[sjg3839]

I think they are doing pretty good as for the amount of people who are still purchasing from these companies regularly.

 

[chypre]

Very few of those listed in the OP seem to have retained their niche cachet though. Lutens, Creed, Diptyque and even Malle have widened their distribution so much that they're not really niche anymore. L'Artisan and Goutal seem to be having issues with direction, changing their image every so often. The only ones I can think of that have maintained their nicheness and their image are Villoresi, Heeley... Of those unlisted, there's also Amouage, Parfums de Rosine, Frapin, Lubin, Comme des Garçons... IIRC Frapin just released a new scent. And Amouage is probably not niche anymore, I mean, they're in my department store.

(Sorry for the lack of paragraphs, it's late where I am).

 

[Scent Detective]

I have a soft spot in my heart for:

Serge Lutens
Creed
Heeley

of these niche brands mentioned. This comes from scent profiles discovered and memories both prior to discovering scents from these houses and memories made after discovering them. For me, the feelings a scent gives me is one of the most important aspects of my pursuit of the fragrances I'm attracted to. Without that, all of the hype, marketing, and FOMO shouldn't be enough to get me to buy a fragrance. I will admit to buying a few based on each of those three reasons I just mentioned, but only a few. One of the lessons I've learned in fragrance collecting has been to only pursue those that I'm passionate about because they speak to me personally and not because someone said they are amazing, or because there are only a few bottles available. Sorry for getting off topic so badly, but I am coming back to the point now.

I have several bottles from Serge Lutens, Creed, and Heeley that speak to me. They are like friends in a way and we share moments in time that matter to me. Some of them even connect me to certain people and those people are also a part of those moments and memories.

As to how they're holding up?

I haven't bought a Serge Lutens perfume in a few years as I haven't been attracted to any of the new ones I've sampled. May be purchasing a bottle of La Couche de Diable soon though. But the main ones I still want are previous releases that are hard to find now, so...perhaps they aren't as intriguing to me as they once were as a brand.

Creed hasn't held up well in my book because of the purchase by Blackrock and reformulation. My bottles of Creed are all prior to those changes and unless they come out with something that knocks me over, my opinion at least at this moment is that they're going to slide down the hill, maybe slow...maybe fast.

Heeley feels similar to me now as it did when I first started purchasing their perfumes in about 2014 at least from their business model and function, but what do I know? With regards to their releases, it does seem to me that their "hayday" was perhaps the first decade of the 2000's. I have yet to smell Cologne Officinale, but I haven't purchased any Heeley since 2020's Zeste de Gingembre, so maybe CO will hit the sweet spot? Need to sample it.

 

[Jean-Clone Ellena]

Speaking specifically of Serge Lutens, I remember reading a text by Luca Turin about it - in a review of La Religieuse. I have to admit that I am not the number one fan of Turin by any means, but here I personally can subscribe to his words in what seems to me a very accurate comment:

In retrospect it is clear that Lutens jumped the shark somewhere around
2010 and shows no sign of giving up water-skiing. This review will
therefore take the form of a eulogy. When Shiseido gave Lutens room to do
so, he and Chris Sheldrake, respectively as art director and perfumer,
changed the face of perfumery. No perfume shop will ever be as magical as
the Jardins du Palais Royal. No firm since Coty was more important in its
day, or more widely imitated. Ambre Sultan, La Myrrhe, Féminité du Bois,
Iris Silver Mist (with Maurice Roucel) were absolute landmarks. At the
time, some pundits enamored of classical perfumery missed the point of this
new kind of beauty, and declared the fragrances to be merely very good
bases, i.e. incomplete perfumes. They actually were instances of completely
worked out simplicity. A musical equivalent would be Philip Glass at his
best, rough rafts floating on a sea of skill. The genius of Lutens was
somehow (he is not a man of words, as recent press releases aver) to convey
to Sheldrake a perfumery idea, and follow it to completion. Sheldrake’s
genius was to build a real fragrance around it, without resorting to clichés
and shortcuts. Disclosure: I know both Lutens and Sheldrake. Lutens was
the very soul of kindness and generosity towards me in my early days of
perfume writing. Chris Sheldrake is one of the greatest perfumers alive,
now quietly working miracles at Chanel. Let us remember what they
achieved, and ignore the overpriced dreck that is the recent Lutens output

 

[Toxicon]

I can only really speak to latter-day Lutens, since I own about a dozen of them, and I haven't had a chance to compare to older versions... still wonderful stuff, in my opinion. Perhaps they were better before? It's a nice thought, but with their retreat from the US market and dwindling supply at discounters, the prices for the old stuff is already sky high on the secondary market, so I've just given up hope and opted to stick to what I can find, while I can find it. I get why people might scoff at scents like L'Orpheline or the mostly limp Les Eaux de Politisse series, but some of the recent releases are phenomenal anyway: La Couche du Diable, Fils de Joie, and La Participe Passe are as good as anything I've smelled - I love all three.

If the house has lost its way, it's with all the confusing / competing lines and jacking up prices to absurd levels for most of the best scents. I'm sure there was some logic to moving Fille en Aiguilles to a $375 gratte-ciel bottle--and I own and love that version in spite of myself--but surely they'd sell far more if it was priced reasonably in a Collection Noire bottle?? It's these kinds of choices that seem to have diminished the brand's standing more than anything - trying to position it as more of a luxury brand, rather than an inventive house for serious perfume enthusiasts, seems to have been a costly mistake. Here's hoping they find their way on the business front sooner than later.

 

[hollywoodforever]

I am 32 - younger than many of the brands you mention. Heeley is probably my favorite (or second favorite) house and I find almost all of their scents to be of exceptional quality. Natural, unique, offbeat, completely contemporary but also very classic...

I also LOVE Goutal. I get the sense that though almost no one talks about Goutal in the USA, the brand is still quite popular in its native France, and possibly also in East Asia. I have smelled old bottles and new, and think there is no difference in quality between them.

but I've heard it through the grapevine that they are returning to the rectangular presentation?

Goutal has already made the changes to the packaging. The women's bottles have reverted to the rounder oblong bottles with the bulbous caps and the perfume name on a ribbon. The men's bottles remain in the same "newer" cylindrical fluted bottles. I like both presentations.

Cool story - James Heeley got his start working for Annick Goutal.

 

[hollywoodforever]

Also:

• Have never smelled a Tauer I liked.
• Jo Malone should definitely qualify as original niche. The house has dozens of excellent scents.
  • The same is true for Le Labo.
• Frederic Malle still going strong, though I have little interest in recent releases.
• Diptyque fragrances have never excited me, though there are a couple I still want to try...

Creed and By Kilian just strike me as private equity cash grabs... never been interested in either.

 

[Opiate]

A number of these houses have made some of my all-time favorite fragrances.
More than that, I’d say they've made some of the best fragrances the modern world has ever known.

So I want to be as delicate as I can be in light of their greatness.

I’ll just say that… I haven’t bought any of the newer releases from any of these brands, as I simply haven’t been interested in anything I’ve seen from them.

*Synthetic Jungle being the exception, I think it’s absolutely extraordinary. I don’t personally own it or wear it due to struggling with lily notes on my skin but It is magnificent, and probably worthy of the title “modern successor to Chanel n°19” imo).

 

[Ken_Russell]

From a personal viewpoint alone, neither considering that one particular category of perfume houses in any way contradicts/invalidates the other nor that a certain (personal, highly subjective) reference towards one has to automatically diminish any interest, curiosity, even excitement about the other.

Yes, there are a few more "classic" niche houses could not live without-or at least making the personal fragrance journey far more drab, commonplace and uninteresting-including but not limited to obviously Creed and Amouage, but also Jovoy, Houbigant, Penhaligon's, Knize, Hugh Parsons, Floris, Lutens, Frapin, ADP, Atkinson's, without being limited to these either.

However none of the wonderful experiences and memories do cherish with any of the aforementioned houses both abundantly and consistently will ever change nor diminish any excitement while (re) discovering any skillful or even just moderately interesting output of newer and/or less known (yet) indie and/or artisan brands.

 

[baklavaRuzh]

I would not include Creed. As its origins date back to a pedigreed hunter gatherer family preparing fragrances for the rituals at the Stonehenge, it would not be fair to compare it to the others.


In any case, I just see them as any other brand to be honest. And the more the merrier. I'm sure most of them do great business still, as fragrance market has blown up.

 

[Scent Detective]

Speaking specifically of Serge Lutens, I remember reading a text by Luca Turin about it - in a review of La Religieuse. I have to admit that I am not the number one fan of Turin by any means, but here I personally can subscribe to his words in what seems to me a very accurate comment:

In retrospect it is clear that Lutens jumped the shark somewhere around
2010 and shows no sign of giving up water-skiing. This review will
therefore take the form of a eulogy. When Shiseido gave Lutens room to do
so, he and Chris Sheldrake, respectively as art director and perfumer,
changed the face of perfumery. No perfume shop will ever be as magical as
the Jardins du Palais Royal. No firm since Coty was more important in its
day, or more widely imitated. Ambre Sultan, La Myrrhe, Féminité du Bois,
Iris Silver Mist (with Maurice Roucel) were absolute landmarks. At the
time, some pundits enamored of classical perfumery missed the point of this
new kind of beauty, and declared the fragrances to be merely very good
bases, i.e. incomplete perfumes. They actually were instances of completely
worked out simplicity. A musical equivalent would be Philip Glass at his
best, rough rafts floating on a sea of skill. The genius of Lutens was
somehow (he is not a man of words, as recent press releases aver) to convey
to Sheldrake a perfumery idea, and follow it to completion. Sheldrake’s
genius was to build a real fragrance around it, without resorting to clichés
and shortcuts. Disclosure: I know both Lutens and Sheldrake. Lutens was
the very soul of kindness and generosity towards me in my early days of
perfume writing. Chris Sheldrake is one of the greatest perfumers alive,
now quietly working miracles at Chanel. Let us remember what they
achieved, and ignore the overpriced dreck that is the recent Lutens output

I appreciate your thoughts with regards to Luca Turin's sometimes..."stark", and "candid" opinions, but this quote from him strikes a chord in me as well. The era of Serge Lutens and Christopher Sheldrake creating the "gems" that were in the Serge Lutens repertoire of the early 1990's through roughly 2010 were golden years of niche perfumery in my opinion. Their fragrances sparkled for the nose and for the eye. I can't think of a presentation that caught my eye more strikingly than the SL 1.7 oz. bottles with their many colors gleaming in the lights. They truly did sparkle like gems in a jeweler's case and set the niche bar high from within and without. I never got to see the Jardins du Palais Royal perfume shop, but that would have been amazing. I'd love to hear from anyone who did go in that shop in it's prime! I'd also love to see pictures anyone has from their visit to that shop if they've got them!

 

[cheapimitation]

Some quick thoughts on the ones listed:
Frederic Malle has done the best job of staying relevant and maintaining core values. Recent releases have been modern, bold and daring even if not everyone's cup of tea and not a single one of the original releases has been ruined by reformulation (despite some ridiculous claims that Malle has been ruined since Lauder). It is also a miracle he has kept every single fragrance from the original line up in production and in good shape, this makes me massively respect the brand and feel like I can rely on them.

Serge Lutens, hot take but I think he's continued to do the same thing now as always. His hit and miss record has always been spotty but I think people just filter out the misses from earlier in the line and look at all the hits and complain he's gone downhill. The swapping of bottles and lines is annoying but I think he's kept a lot of the original integrity of the brand intact. My biggest complaint is his style feels very "of a time" to me and even when I smell new releases I think of the 1990s/early 2000s.

Creed is now and always was irrelevant to me. They have always smelled like office worker scents to me and that's not what I do.

L'artisan is a sad story. They had so much hype and love when I was first getting into fragrance, maybe we were spoiled that so many of them were readily available on discount back in the day. Maybe I'm being unfair but I haven't bothered to revisit the brand since they switched ownership and I really wonder what their market is. Most people who loved them back in the day say the good ones have been gutted and it doesn't seem like there is any hype around the brand to attract new customers. I really wonder who is still buying them?

Heeley is the little engine that could. I'm so glad he's stuck around and as far as I know remained independent? His fragrances are subtle, refined and never trendy so I imagine he must not have the largest customer base, so I'm really happy he's still going and releasing new fragrances. If there's one brand I'd like to continue to support more it would be him.

The others I've not tried or don't have opinions about. I'd like to dive into more of Goutal's catalog, I've tried a few here and there and was impressed.

In a way I think these brands hit at just the right time, before the fragrance market exploded. That gives them a certain "founders" credit and respectably that still plays today in a crowded market. I really wonder in another 10 years how many of the newer brand like PdM, Initio, Maison Crivelli etc will be around.

 

[slpfrsly]

Enjoyed reading the observations made in the thread so far. Thanks.

 

[Tourtiere]

Excellent thread.

Of these "niche houses", the two that I'm most familiar with are Amouage and Nicolaï, though I wouldn't really describe either as "niche"? The first is a government-funded experiment that lucked out with some of Guy Robert's finest creations, the second is Guerlain's granddaughter who makes incredible and reasonably-priced fragrances that strangely nobody seems to care-that-much about (and I'm fine with that haha).

Amouage, to their credit, still provide spectacular versions of their early "hits" and I love them for that and always make time to try out everything new they have on offer; their attars are not within my budget, sadly.

And Nicolaï is just perfect imho!

 

[algebraist]

Serge Lutens has to still be one of my favourite houses, in every respect, even including the boutique experience in Paris which manages to seem more opulent and mysterious than Guerlain's flagship, while doing less. Very few fragrances are discontinued and their classics are all in acceptable shape. The latest release, while not personally interesting to me, is still in alignment with the brand's aesthetic.

L'Artisan Parfumeur are hit and miss these days and I find it unforgiveable that Dzing! was discontinued. (Beware that Tea for Two is to suffer the same fate, apparently.) While they are a business, it's important to keep monumental and challenging masterpieces alive, even if that means just as a France exclusive for example. Most people won't buy it but it creates a conversation and draws people into the rest of a collection.

Frederic Malle are consistent and solid, with the exception of Uncut Gem. The release of Synthetic Jungle shows they're not following trends, since it is a very 70s green floral/lily of the valley. Not innovative and more floral than green despite the use of a broader palette of green materials like isocyclocitral. Nevertheless, acceptable and beyond the output of many other 'niche' brands.

I haven't tried enough Goutal or Villoresi; I'm looking forward to trying Donna and Garofano since it is hard to come by carnation dominant fragrances these days.

 

[Tonyprince]

From this period, I would still rank Lorenzo Villoresi and Serge Lutens very highly (although I think SL has run amok in terms of pricing and marketing and the same can been said about Creed). I still love my L'Artisan perfumes but I don't follow their new releases anymore. Maitre Perfumer d'Gantier (sp?) should be in this discussion as well. I still love those, too.

 

[CookBot]

Founded in 1970, I think Bruno Acampora deserves to be considered in this discussion. Fiercely eccentric, and consistent.

 

[Brooks Otterlake]

Founded in 1970, I think Bruno Acampora deserves to be considered in this discussion. Fiercely eccentric, and consistent.

I've never heard of this house. Did it have some notoriety in the perfume community in the 00s?

 

[CookBot]

I've never heard of this house. Did it have some notoriety in the perfume community in the 00s?

That surprises me, Brooks. Yes, it's been successful for fifty years. It's never had wide distribution in the U.S., but is very well known in Europe. It's quirky, to say the least.

Bruno Acampora Profumi - Essenze Rare dal 1974 | Official Store

Casa essenziera italiana che dal 1974 produce fragranze meticolosamente artigianali. I Profumi Acampora nascono in olio puro selezionando i materiali più preziosi.

brunoacampora.com

 

[enframing]

I like Nicoläi, Diptyque, and Goutal quite a lot. Dunno if all of those count as "original niche" though.

 

[chypre]

I'm testing some of Parfum d'Empire's perfumes today, and I think they're one brand that is continuing to offer the "spirit of niche", which to me means unusual fragrances made with quality materials. I don't know if they're part of the original niche, since they were post-2000. But they're still good, arguably better than the original line up.