Vintage aromachemicals

[pobepto]

Hello
What kind of aroma chemical is associated wit the "vintage" idea or simply smells vintage?
In your opinion?

 

[jfrater]

Hello
What kind of aroma chemical is associated wit the "vintage" idea or simply smells vintage?
In your opinion?

Musk Ketone, Musk Xylene, Musk Ambrette. To a lesser extent I think helioptropin (piperonal).

They are still used today (except musk ambrette - and musk xylene is almost never seen) but to many people they make a fragrance smell old fashioned.

 

[pobepto]

Yes, I think that musk ketone is very vintage,too
I also think that precyclemone and indole are very old fashioned... LOL

 

[Geco]

Oakmoss, indole,jasmine a bit,some aldehydes, and civet yes....

 

[pkiler]

Civet is by far the signature of old women's perfumes, they had a tone of civet in them. I will add these: the blend of Vanillin, Heliotropin, and Coumarin. As well as all mentioned above. And especially the very powdery addition of Ionones and Oakmoss, gets you to old lady in a hurry.

 

[pkiler]

Vintage Formulas used just one or two letters on the formula lines, because they were so well known and used.

MA = Musk Ambrette
MK = Musk Ketone
H = Heliotropin
V = Vanillin
C = Coumarin

 

[birdie]

Musk Ketone, Musk Xylene, Musk Ambrette. To a lesser extent I think helioptropin (piperonal).

They are still used today (except musk ambrette - and musk xylene is almost never seen) but to many people they make a fragrance smell old fashioned.

I thought the nitro musks where all banned?

 

[pkiler]

Musk Ketone is not banned... Musk Xylene is, can't remember about the Ambrette. But they are used heavily in India and Asia, where these bans are not in force, and much of the stock used is in Incense.

 

[Serg Ixygon]

C-12 mna

 

[jfrater]

I thought the nitro musks where all banned?

Musk ambrette is banned. Musk xylene is banned in some places and musk ketone is banned in some places only if it has a high amount of musk xylene in it.

 

[Clare30]

I am increasingy getting interested in this concept of "Old lady" perfume.

I mean, in 1929 all those silk stockinged flappers with their boy bob haircuts and shimmy skirts, wearing Shalimar and Mitsouko and My sin are now "old lady". They weren't old lady then! All that is happened is...they aged. We remember our grandmother smelling of those scents, and yet they were the orginal IT girls.

It's interestng how names cycle, and old fashioned names suddenly become modern names: Sophia, Olivia, Eva, Violet - the handle our new women will identify by - but perfume holds onto its vintage and defies a modern interpretation. . It just goes to show how scent is totally recall and association.

But there was a time when a girl was dancing the charlston, heady with smells of lipstick and Coty powder, with the new perfumes trailing her wake, full of ambergris and outrageous naturals and the new synthetics and she was the totem of the age, and now we call it "old lady",

Is Angel already "old lady"? What about Coco Mademoiselle? Is it all a matter of time?

 

[Geco]

Clare30 said: ""Angel è già "vecchia signora"? Che mi dici di Coco Mademoiselle? È tutta una questione di tempo?""

yes, they will soon be out of fashion perfumes, "old style", i think. For ex., like the old rounded lines of the 60s cars.
But some who have refreshed can stay on the scene, for ex. new light versions of Mitsouko and Shalimar,etc...the fact is that the flavors of the perfume have changed towards greater airiness, transparency, and and avoids certain types of odors,i think...imho...

 

[jfrater]

I am increasingy getting interested in this concept of "Old lady" perfume.

I mean, in 1929 all those silk stockinged flappers with their boy bob haircuts and shimmy skirts, wearing Shalimar and Mitsouko and My sin are now "old lady". They weren't old lady then! All that is happened is...they aged. We remember our grandmother smelling of those scents, and yet they were the orginal IT girls.

It's interestng how names cycle, and old fashioned names suddenly become modern names: Sophia, Olivia, Eva, Violet - the handle our new women will identify by - but perfume holds onto its vintage and defies a modern interpretation. . It just goes to show how scent is totally recall and association.

But there was a time when a girl was dancing the charlston, heady with smells of lipstick and Coty powder, with the new perfumes trailing her wake, full of ambergris and outrageous naturals and the new synthetics and she was the totem of the age, and now we call it "old lady",

Is Angel already "old lady"? What about Coco Mademoiselle? Is it all a matter of time?

Coco Mademoiselle is old fashioned now - hence the new version they just released which, ironically, is a richer heavier version. Today's girls don't want to smell like old ladies (their mothers) by wearing the likes of Mademoiselle, Angel, Issey Miyake.

I suspect the '80s power-perfumes are on the come-back with the likes of Aura, Twilly, and Coco Mademoiselle Intense. Forget the wimpy watery scents of the '90s and '00s.

I am also aware of at least one men's fragrance that fairly recently came to market which uses musk ketone.

 

[Thea in Fl]

I never smelled any of those, I think my scent memories are full of Grampa's old spice, Grama's lavender powder, and irish spring soap which I will never tire of, English leather, and the villain of the group, Jovan Musk (do they still make that?) There was a girl that frequented our group of friends that really liked that perfume, really liked.
Ruined musk for me for many years, but maybe now that I am trying to make some things I will develop some kind of appreciation.

 

[mattmeleg]

There are outstanding modern perfumes
But many just smell "nice.""Nice" = watered down laundry detergent.
It could be the over use of synthetic musks?


I like thick, classic men`s colognes that don`t really too heavily on musks.
ex. Brut, or Fougere Royal. I`ve made up simple, thick fougere`s with materials John Steele and Eden Botanicals.
Presents for men in the family, they came out amazing.

On a side note,
Here`s my person cologne, I wear daily and love it.
This is modern perfume, but it does smell very thick, heavy classic, with middle eastern sensibilities.
https://www.fragrantica.com/perfume/Rania-J/Oud-Assam-18027.html

 

[mattmeleg]

I never smelled any of those, I think my scent memories are full of Grampa's old spice, Grama's lavender powder, and irish spring soap which I will never tire of, English leather, and the villain of the group, Jovan Musk (do they still make that?) There was a girl that frequented our group of friends that really liked that perfume, really liked. Ruined musk for me for many years, but maybe now that I am trying to make some things I will develop some kind of appreciation.

Jovan Musk is a masterpiece!
absolutely love it.

If anyone has a fair idea as to its formula....please share!
Matt

 

[Geco]

Me too j'adore Ebene Balmain , Heritage Guerlain,etc,etc., many old cologne. And Fendi Woman,Samsara,etc.
But new consumers...

 

[jfrater]

Me too j'adore Ebene Balmain , Heritage Guerlain,etc,etc., many old cologne. And Fendi Woman,Samsara,etc.
But new consumers...

Heritage by Guerlain is a wonderful perfume.

 

[Clare30]

Coco Mademoiselle is old fashioned now - hence the new version they just released which, ironically, is a richer heavier version. Today's girls don't want to smell like old ladies (their mothers) by wearing the likes of Mademoiselle, Angel, Issey Miyake.

I suspect the '80s power-perfumes are on the come-back with the likes of Aura, Twilly, and Coco Mademoiselle Intense. Forget the wimpy watery scents of the '90s and '00s.

I am also aware of at least one men's fragrance that fairly recently came to market which uses musk ketone.

Isn't a richer heavier, version of Coco Mademoiselle ...Coco? I must have a sniff next time I am doing a dash through the airport and find out how it compares.

I'm hoping you are not being ironic and in fact the trend for fragrance is going to be a bit more interesting for the future, and not past 20 years of mainly generic, bland, "offends no one" kind of scents, culminating with that damp squib that Chanel put out, Gabrielle ( I know that not everyone agrees with me, but i was horrified at the "Meh" of it). I wouldnt say Twilly or Aura are particularly "power perfumes", though? Not by a long shot, but maybe I have just spent too long smelling Tom Ford and vintage stuff ( although I could swear Black orchid has lightened up of late? I'm not enough of a fan to wear it and be sure, but it smelled much lighter to me last airport dash? ) , I dunno. But getting back to the subject matter ( sorry to steer it off course) I think as geco said, scents have generally become increasingly lighter, linear and more transparent, and i think that is simpy been driven by the aromachems that have been invented and the economising and IFRA conforming in commercial perfume which has steered them away from using denser more complex naturals. So i would say that "vintage" is more in the naturals used than the aromachems, particularly ambergris and civet and oakmoss. I'm not an expert on musks the way Jamie and PK are, but i would say musks are pretty much being replaced by other musks that whilst wont smell the same, i am not sure how they would be defined by a time, or definitive of a time. Might be wrong, but that would be my take.

Oh as an edit, I do think one particular base seems to turn a perfume vintage smelling to me: Orris Givco. Orris itself is of course very vintage smelling, but this has a vintage cosmetics smell to me.

 

[jfrater]

Isn't a richer heavier, version of Coco Mademoiselle ...Coco? I must have a sniff next time I am doing a dash through the airport and find out how it compares.

I'm hoping you are not being ironic and in fact the trend for fragrance is going to be a bit more interesting for the future, and not past 20 years of mainly generic, bland, "offends no one" kind of scents, culminating with that damp squib that Chanel put out, Gabrielle ( I know that not everyone agrees with me, but i was horrified at the "Meh" of it). I wouldnt say Twilly or Aura are particularly "power perfumes", though? Not by a long shot, but maybe I have just spent too long smelling Tom Ford and vintage stuff ( although I could swear Black orchid has lightened up of late? I'm not enough of a fan to wear it and be sure, but it smelled much lighter to me last airport dash? ) , I dunno. But getting back to the subject matter ( sorry to steer it off course) I think as geco said, scents have generally become increasingly lighter, linear and more transparent, and i think that is simpy been driven by the aromachems that have been invented and the economising and IFRA conforming in commercial perfume which has steered them away from using denser more complex naturals. So i would say that "vintage" is more in the naturals used than the aromachems, particularly ambergris and civet and oakmoss. I'm not an expert on musks the way Jamie and PK are, but i would say musks are pretty much being replaced by other musks that whilst wont smell the same, i am not sure how they would be defined by a time, or definitive of a time. Might be wrong, but that would be my take.

Oh as an edit, I do think one particular base seems to turn a perfume vintage smelling to me: Orris Givco. Orris itself is of course very vintage smelling, but this has a vintage cosmetics smell to me.

You are right about an intense mademoiselle being Coco - I said the same thing at the Chanel boutique until I smelt it. Coco is (was) rich in resins and balsams to give it that heavy dark quality with the beautiful mellis accord of patchouli, cloves, etc., while Mademoiselle Intense is rich in vanilla and fruit. Intense is more of a gourmand "rich" rather than an oriential "rich".

Mademoiselle Intense is actually very nice and makes a nice addition to the Coco family (the best segment of Chanel's offerings besides Coromandel).

As for irony - I wasn't being so I do think the new perfumes are getting heavier and more interesting. I stand by my belief that Twilly and Aura are heavy - but perhaps I should have added the caveat that they are heavy by today's standards. Certainly they don't compete at all with the likes of Georgio of Beverly Hills, Opium, Poison, etc.

I'm definitely not an expert in musk like PK and others here. I do tend to use a lot of white musks but I always include at least something of the animalic (usually synthetic such as muscone Laevo or muscenone). Muscenone, to my nose, is one of the most beautiful things to come from synthetics in perfumery. I do also use real civet and castoreum, and sometimes ambergris, though I have a base which is better than any tincture you can buy on the market today. And I use a few different deer musk bases which are likewise stunning and true to the original.

 

[jfrater]

There are outstanding modern perfumes
But many just smell "nice.""Nice" = watered down laundry detergent.
It could be the over use of synthetic musks?


I like thick, classic men`s colognes that don`t really too heavily on musks.
ex. Brut, or Fougere Royal. I`ve made up simple, thick fougere`s with materials John Steele and Eden Botanicals.
Presents for men in the family, they came out amazing.

On a side note,
Here`s my person cologne, I wear daily and love it.
This is modern perfume, but it does smell very thick, heavy classic, with middle eastern sensibilities.
https://www.fragrantica.com/perfume/Rania-J/Oud-Assam-18027.html

Erm... both Brut and Fougere Royale relied heavily on nitro musks. In fact, the very core ingredient contributing much of the characteristic odour of Brut was an overdose (more than 12% I believe) of Musk Ambrette. There is a formula online somewhere that does a reasonable job of replicating original Brut - I recommend making it for yourself - it's gorgeous. Get a good quality of Musk Ambrette for it - Christine at PerfumerSupplyHouse can help with that.

If you want something with no musk get Eau Sauvage (though Roudnitska made a perfected version of it for himself which included 10% musk ambrette) and for very little musk get an old bottle of L'Egoiste (just 0.5% ambrettolide - nothing more).

 

[Kacper Kafel]

1. Strong alcoholic top note over the chaotic cresylic flower in heart- lots of aldehyde-c11, dimethyl hydroquinone. Galbanum is quintessence of vintage hairspray top note, maybe stemone is similar vintage, hairspray opened.
2. Para-cresyl phenyl acetate- smell cresylic and sticky honey and good blended with aldehydes and galbanum. Very vintage like Anais Anais Cacharel.
3. High dose ionones- create a ,,woman powdered tights" impression. Especially blended with coumarinic, vanillic sweetness, steroidal sandalwood and musk and sometimes prominent rose. Quintessence of Chanel nr 5- very strong sillage of ionones, coumarin and ,,library type musk". Like soapier and more flowery-aldehydic ( ylang-rose-grandi jasmine and other) version of JPG Le Male.
4. Coumarin Overdose- Occur in both: Chanel nr5 and Opium YSL. Create characteric ,,woman tight" or ,,creamed wrinkled old woman face" or baby cream impression in sillage this perfume. Sometimes this aspect is enhanced by library ,,coumarinic" type musk- velvione, exaltone etc and steroidal sandalwood type javanol, polysantol.
5. Mixture of heliotropin and vetiveryl acetate: Characteric very vintage opaque combo.
6. Civet.

 

[pavomi]

great suggestions so far! i want to add phenyl acetic acid

 

[lauermar]

I am increasingy getting interested in this concept of "Old lady" perfume.

I mean, in 1929 all those silk stockinged flappers with their boy bob haircuts and shimmy skirts, wearing Shalimar and Mitsouko and My sin are now "old lady". They weren't old lady then! All that is happened is...they aged. We remember our grandmother smelling of those scents, and yet they were the orginal IT girls.

It's interestng how names cycle, and old fashioned names suddenly become modern names: Sophia, Olivia, Eva, Violet - the handle our new women will identify by - but perfume holds onto its vintage and defies a modern interpretation. . It just goes to show how scent is totally recall and association.

But there was a time when a girl was dancing the charlston, heady with smells of lipstick and Coty powder, with the new perfumes trailing her wake, full of ambergris and outrageous naturals and the new synthetics and she was the totem of the age, and now we call it "old lady",

Is Angel already "old lady"? What about Coco Mademoiselle? Is it all a matter of time?

Yes, Angel, Coco M. have long ago been deemed "old lady" in online reviews elsewhere. Some are labelled "old lady" even at launch, like La Vie Est Belle. I don't pay attention to that. I am an old lady of 63 without perfume on, and I can't change it so why worry. I just enjoy wearing whatever I want.