too early?

Sniffita

Well-known member
Oct 20, 2020
I don't necessarily want to volunteer to be the person in charge of the brief, but maybe I can help us get started?

PRELIM FOUGÈRE BRIEF
Create a perfume containing notes of coumarin, bergamot/citrus, lavender/geranium, vetiver, labdanum and oakmoss. The opening should be bright, fresh, and green (think: fern!). The drydown should be spicy and herbal, in addition to the coumarin.

I tried to be open-ended but still specific enough that everyone would have some essential basic elements to hit (bright/fresh opening + spicy/herbal drydown). If nobody likes this, I'm totally ok with it, but ime it's easier sometimes to edit than kick off, so I thought I'd kick off!

I am not sure a brief has to be a list of ingredients, but maybe some can find it useful.
Anyway, I don't see any necessity for Labdanum in a fougère.
If you want to be schematic, you can say that Labdanum is typical in a classic chypre structure, but not in a fougère.
 
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Sniffita

Well-known member
Oct 20, 2020
Pino Silvestre Vidal
Gucci Nobile
Nino Cerruti 1881 Men
Dolce & Gabbana Pour Homme
Gianfranco Ferré Fougere Italiano
Lorenzo Villoresi Uomo
 

Bavard

Wearing Perfume Right Now
Moderator
Basenotes Plus
Jul 20, 2015
I'm still trying to get a feel for what a fougere is. Paco Rabanne Pour Homme fits my conception of a fougere. The key, to my mind, is to have a note or accord that comes across as soapy, where the soapy note makes it too different from a chypre to be called a chypre.
 

Contrapunctus

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2021
In my understanding a classic fougere in the strictest sense is built around lavender, coumarin and moss. I'm not sure if Fougère Royale in its current version could still be regarded as an appropriate example. Instead I'd suggest

Wild Fern (Geo F. Trumper) or
English Fern (Penhaligon's)

for archetypical (classic) fougeres. (Although not mentioned, it's almost obvious that besides lavender/coumarin/moss some salicylates (e.g. amylsalicylate) are important in this context, because a simple accord between coumarin and amylsalicylate already produces a basic soapy green fern.)
 

Jolieo

Well-known member
Feb 18, 2018
Ok(just spit balling) so this is a bigger fragrance ( not close to the skin) transparent, bright,that lingers
The dry down is to coumarin with a lingering lavender/citrus ghosting? Am I close?
 

Contrapunctus

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2021
Ok(just spit balling) so this is a bigger fragrance ( not close to the skin) transparent, bright,that lingers
The dry down is to coumarin with a lingering lavender/citrus ghosting? Am I close?

If you add some amylsalicylate to this, you're in the territory of the first (early) classic fougeres. As written before, I think that (for early fougere) the core is defined by amylsalicylate, coumarin, lavender, moss. I'm not sure, but I reckon that Wild Fern, English Fern or Crown Fougere and alike wouldn't be possible without coumarin and amylsalicylate.

I don't agree with pavomi's recommendation of mixing together bergamot, lavender, geranium and oakmoss for getting an idea of fougere. These materials maybe good for a basic chypre imo.
 

SubUmbra

Well-known member
Jul 9, 2018
I'm really pleased my suggestion of a Fougere challenge was adopted! Perhaps if it goes well, we can do Chypre after.

I'm seeing lots of uncertainty as to what defines a Fougere, so I thought I'd share some links for those who'd like to read up and perhaps smell a few examples.

Here's a written piece on Fougere history & structure.

Here are a few examples of "unisex" Fougeres.

Here's a discussion John Biebel and I had about Fougere structure & some perfumes which we feel should count as Fougeres, but are very nontraditional.

The TL,DR version of what makes a Fougere involves the following fragrant components:

Something herbal - this is most typically lavender or clary sage; a dry, herbaceous, sometimes medicinal quality.

Something coumarinic - coumarin itself, but also tonka beans or hay.

Something mossy - a green, earthy, minerally, or otherwise-mossy quality; sometimes boosted by geranium in the heart.

A musk complex - this part isn't often cited, but most fougeres have a musky element, whether that's a clean musk or something more animalic.

Something citric - bergamot is the traditional choice, but more and more modern Fougeres are skipping the traditional citrus for other sharp, bracing top notes.

Essentially, a Fougere is all about the interplay between mossy/green, herb/lavender/dry, and coumarin/sweet elements. I am hoping to be a participant in this challenge, but I am also willing to help judge if need be. In my opinion, the challenge is infinitely more interesting if we keep the guidelines fairly open to interpretation. After all, the hallmark Fougere fragrances already exist in abundance -- I'm personally more interested to see what you all want to create!

Hope this is helpful!
 

xii

Well-known member
Jun 9, 2015
I'm glad we seem to have a theme. To me Fougere is essentially an attempt to tame wild, torn, hysteric Chypre. I envision a Wagnerian protagonist clad in a tuxedo. So the classical Fougeres often reached into the ancient palette of warm spice. Also the ever increasing abstraction of the Chypre theme has been paralleled by the alike phenomenon in the Fougere.
 

Pinkster

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2010
It’s interesting to see how everyone has a slightly different take on what exactly makes a fougere—that alone will probably make it a great challenge! I’d personally be inclined to forgo an exacting brief and simply say we’re making fougeres. Everyone knows (or can read in this thread) roughly what that entails, and where there are differences of opinion it’s likely to only bring interest to the game. :)

That said, I may have to bow out personally—I’m no fougere expert and a few big time commitments have recently come up. Best of luck to everyone though!
 

Casper_grassy

Well-known member
May 5, 2020
I think to give a solid idea of a “classic barbershop fougere” that we’ve probably all have smelled at least once is brut

Also maybe Mikey has it on hand (sorry on vacay can’t look for it anywhere) the fougere sketch from “introduction to perfumery” that I believe he got from PK.

It demonstrates the major constituents of a fougere.

Last thing maybe a little hoo ha that should be taken into consideration is that the amounts of diff moss abs Nd coumarin were extremely high in comparison to current ifra limits for the classic fougeres. IDK how people feel about these things but just felt it should be mentioned.
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
This is the fougère structure that Paul posted in the past:

Lavender 14
Bergamot 8
Coumarin 12
Rose 5
Jasmin 4
Patchouli 2
Vetiver 10
Geranium 2
Iso-Amyl Salicylate 3
Oakmoss absolute 6

If we're going to require IFRA compliance, I will probably not participate. This is not out of any philosophical objection, but it will make it a practical pain in the ass for me & go from fun to work.
 

Sniffita

Well-known member
Oct 20, 2020
I'm glad we seem to have a theme. To me Fougere is essentially an attempt to tame wild, torn, hysteric Chypre. I envision a Wagnerian protagonist clad in a tuxedo. So the classical Fougeres often reached into the ancient palette of warm spice. Also the ever increasing abstraction of the Chypre theme has been paralleled by the alike phenomenon in the Fougere.

Hy Xii, how are you going?
Would a beautiful Brünhilde in a smoking suit and high heels ever wear a fougère? No, I don't think so.
She would definitely wear a green leathery chypre.
 

Jolieo

Well-known member
Feb 18, 2018
Mike - we have never required ifra compliance before-more because could I really be sure that I was making a compliant perfume?-
Instead we have asked the maker to state any materials that might be irritants
 

xii

Well-known member
Jun 9, 2015
Would a beautiful Brünhilde in a smoking suit and high heels ever wear a fougère? No, I don't think so.
She would definitely wear a green leathery chypre.

Exactly. Fougere is thought to be a masculine genre.
I‘m quite impartial to gender categorisation in perfumes, so I‘m going to do whatever the hell I want with mine.
 

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