too early?

AdamE

Well-known member
Jul 15, 2019
Is it too soon to ask for a new smelly game?

I missed this most recent one (wasnt inspired by it, despite my best efforts) and with the remaining judging still potentially weeks out, I'd like to get working on something else. I enjoy the focused challenge that these games provide.

If the general consensus is to wait (totally fine) Would anyone be willing to issue and review a one-off specific challenge?
 

Jolieo

Well-known member
Feb 18, 2018
I’m in too!
Xii I believe has something in the works
I have trouble with figurative challenges- my imagination is very concrete- so I have trouble reaching-
So an outer space “perfume”would have everything that poked and clashed
.
I would really love a basics challenge-
Or perhaps we could make it 2 fold -idk
 

Hazel_

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Feb 8, 2021
I would like to try to participate again (since I didn't follow through last game). Back to basics could be fun, what were you thinking Jolieo, something essentialist like everyone makes their version of a chypre?
 

Jolieo

Well-known member
Feb 18, 2018
Yes - maybe classics- I hadn’t thought it out - but the sandalwood perfume taught me a lot- so for me it could also be centered around materials
 

AdamE

Well-known member
Jul 15, 2019
I like the idea of either a specific style or built around a specific material. The open ended prompt just proved a little too open for me to come up with anything satisfactory.

A specific style featuring a specific material might be interesting too
 

Pinkster

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2010
I'd definitely be up for another game!

If we end up going for classics, I'm crossing my fingers for a chypre--I have a concept for a cold, green chypre I'd love to take another shot at. :)
 
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xii

Well-known member
Jun 9, 2015
I'm up for a new challenge, the sooner the better. The only idea I had so far is to let someone else have an idea.
Fougere sounds good chypre too. Whatever makes the participants list longer really.
 

perfumum

Well-known member
Jun 28, 2016
I would be happy to judge again but found that this most recent game didn't improve the scatteredness of the entry or judging process. Not sure if this was discussed, but a version where everyone sends to one person who then shares with the other judges might work better?

I suppose the only issue then would be that the judges would have to spend $$ on 2-3 international parcels. Perhaps there could be a 5$/£ entry fee if that is allowed on this platform which would cover that (and also make people more likely to follow through with their submissions ;) ) People would also save money: one package I received on this most recent game had been posted at a cost of 12.6 Euro for an envelope: multiply that by 3-4 and it actually gets quite pricy to send to multiple judges.

In terms of briefs, I wonder if something more specific would help focus people's output? Specific flowers like tuberose, or even full on co-authored briefs. So, we could do a google form where people can vote for the notes they want in the fragrance, and then everyone has to make that (+/- a few notes).
 

Pinkster

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2010
I would be happy to judge again but found that this most recent game didn't improve the scatteredness of the entry or judging process. Not sure if this was discussed, but a version where everyone sends to one person who then shares with the other judges might work better?

I suppose the only issue then would be that the judges would have to spend $$ on 2-3 international parcels. Perhaps there could be a 5$/£ entry fee if that is allowed on this platform which would cover that (and also make people more likely to follow through with their submissions ;) ) People would also save money: one package I received on this most recent game had been posted at a cost of 12.6 Euro for an envelope: multiply that by 3-4 and it actually gets quite pricy to send to multiple judges.

If it's feasible, I'd be more than happy to pay an entry fee in order to be able to send all my samples to a single judge! Especially since my local post office seems particularly militant about the contents of international packages--I hate not being able to send anything to our non-US judges just because of stringent shipping restrictions. :(
 

AdamE

Well-known member
Jul 15, 2019
I would be happy to judge again but found that this most recent game didn't improve the scatteredness of the entry or judging process. Not sure if this was discussed, but a version where everyone sends to one person who then shares with the other judges might work better?

I suppose the only issue then would be that the judges would have to spend $$ on 2-3 international parcels. Perhaps there could be a 5$/£ entry fee if that is allowed on this platform which would cover that (and also make people more likely to follow through with their submissions ;) ) People would also save money: one package I received on this most recent game had been posted at a cost of 12.6 Euro for an envelope: multiply that by 3-4 and it actually gets quite pricy to send to multiple judges.

In terms of briefs, I wonder if something more specific would help focus people's output? Specific flowers like tuberose, or even full on co-authored briefs. So, we could do a google form where people can vote for the notes they want in the fragrance, and then everyone has to make that (+/- a few notes).

this all sounds good to me.
 

Hazel_

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Feb 8, 2021
I would be happy to judge again but found that this most recent game didn't improve the scatteredness of the entry or judging process. Not sure if this was discussed, but a version where everyone sends to one person who then shares with the other judges might work better?

I suppose the only issue then would be that the judges would have to spend $$ on 2-3 international parcels. Perhaps there could be a 5$/£ entry fee if that is allowed on this platform which would cover that (and also make people more likely to follow through with their submissions ;) ) People would also save money: one package I received on this most recent game had been posted at a cost of 12.6 Euro for an envelope: multiply that by 3-4 and it actually gets quite pricy to send to multiple judges.

In terms of briefs, I wonder if something more specific would help focus people's output? Specific flowers like tuberose, or even full on co-authored briefs. So, we could do a google form where people can vote for the notes they want in the fragrance, and then everyone has to make that (+/- a few notes).

I'd happily pay an entry fee (you're right, it would probably help keep me in the game!) but I know with taking money like this there's always complication. Questions of who collects the fees, what account(s) they live in, all that fun stuff.

I'm 100% down if the community wants to do this and can organize it, but maybe — I realize I write this at my own peril — we could also just be stricter about deadlines? I'm sure that would make it easier for judges, to get all the submissions over a specific span of time.

Maybe to help with that, we could organize a thread (this one or a new one) where contestants update a single post with
1. their perfume brief (hidden as spoiler if desired)
2. the date they mailed their entry
3. any tracking info they have
4. any other pertinent info

That way there could be a central source of truth for judges to reference, to make their jobs easier. Just ideas for the community, I haven't been a judge of anything like this before, but I tend to like accessible, central reference materials so it came to mind :)
 

xii

Well-known member
Jun 9, 2015
The only scenario I'd like to avoid is the 2017 incense game. The thread was started in September and after two months of discussion died. Heirless.
Pretty much everything else is fine with me.
 

Jolieo

Well-known member
Feb 18, 2018
There is an issue: sending quantity of perfume through the mail. There are regulations, that might make it quite difficult for international post of perfume, no less national. The discussion in past(few years ago) games was lengthy on the subject. Discussions ranged from lying, hiding small amounts in packages, mailing the concentrate with dilution instructions. At best gets through, but at worst it is confiscation or fines- because enough for however amount of judges times however many participants is going to equal a good amount of perfume.
I believe in the US it would be possible to figure out the regulations but other countries require custom etc, which could delay or just be onerous
 

xii

Well-known member
Jun 9, 2015
I certainly wouldn't hesitate to pay 100 Euros for dealing with my samples. However, in case of EU every incoming shipment containing perfume, hazardous materials (like ethanol) in it or not, can be subject to REACH in which case it will be destroyed if scrutinised.
 

Hazel_

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Feb 8, 2021
I certainly wouldn't hesitate to pay 100 Euros for dealing with my samples. However, in case of EU every incoming shipment containing perfume, hazardous materials (like ethanol) in it or not, can be subject to REACH in which case it will be destroyed if scrutinised.

My understanding is that the EU shipping issues are due to the alcohol in the fragrance. What do people think about swapping out alcohol for a different solvent, like Isopropyl Myristate? It would make the perfumes a bit weird, performance-wise on skin (since it won't evaporate the same) but from what I've heard it can be shipped internationally and it will still allow for fragrance evaluation.
 

AdamE

Well-known member
Jul 15, 2019
My understanding is that the EU shipping issues are due to the alcohol in the fragrance. What do people think about swapping out alcohol for a different solvent, like Isopropyl Myristate? It would make the perfumes a bit weird, performance-wise on skin (since it won't evaporate the same) but from what I've heard it can be shipped internationally and it will still allow for fragrance evaluation.
Would sending it as a concentrate be a problem? The receiving judge could dilute it to the appropriate %
 

Jolieo

Well-known member
Feb 18, 2018
I think if there are issues with sending perfume in any real amount in the mail, then we might consider doing it as we have been because it’s been successful,
I don’t know about other solvents- enough trouble with ethanol
And this isn’t just about aroma but also performance-so other substrates won’t necessarily perform
Concentrates : we are asking the judges to dilute to the proper amount, then macerate? Do they only do a bit and send the concentrate on ? Because it’s possibly the same issue for them mailing perfume- plus they will have to purchase ethanol- seems crazy complicated
 

xii

Well-known member
Jun 9, 2015
My understanding is that the EU shipping issues are due to the alcohol in the fragrance.

No. EU doesn't bother about alcohol. Your parcel carrier does. EU wants to control imported chemicals. There's no lower limit for the amounts so every shipment containing perfume is subject to this control. No matter how ridiculous it sounds. Apparently 200 grams suffices to trigger the machinery, which I found out the hard way.
 

Hazel_

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Feb 8, 2021
No. EU doesn't bother about alcohol. Your parcel carrier does. EU wants to control imported chemicals. There's no lower limit for the amounts so every shipment containing perfume is subject to this control. No matter how ridiculous it sounds. Apparently 200 grams suffices to trigger the machinery, which I found out the hard way.

Thanks for the info, Xii, I didn't know that. I (incorrectly, clearly) assumed it was a mail carrier/safety issue.
 

AdamE

Well-known member
Jul 15, 2019
alrighty

So what if we did the following;

either a Fougere OR Chypre challenge

and either blended to a collective brief (we all work off the same brief) OR featuring a unique note that you dont often find in either a Fougere or Chypre?
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
alrighty

So what if we did the following;

either a Fougere OR Chypre challenge

and either blended to a collective brief (we all work off the same brief) OR featuring a unique note that you dont often find in either a Fougere or Chypre?

These are appealing to me & might get me to participate. I would vote for fougère (obvs!). I like the idea of working to the same brief, as I think this would make comparisons between the entries much more illuminating for everyone as a learning experience.
 

Jolieo

Well-known member
Feb 18, 2018
Please for people like me , describe both classic and modern fougere- I understand it’s supposed to smell of ferns ( which have no smell) - but I have never consciously smelled it- so even some people samples of available perfumes that are classic or modern, it would be really helpful!
 

pavomi

Well-known member
Sep 3, 2016
Please for people like me , describe both classic and modern fougere- I understand it’s supposed to smell of ferns ( which have no smell) - but I have never consciously smelled it- so even some people samples of available perfumes that are classic or modern, it would be really helpful!

i'm sure you are having bergamot, lavender and geranium at your lab. maybe some okamoss too. mix those with your knowledge of the ingredients and you will know what the core of fougere is. the range of different ratios of these four ingredients is quite wide, and will result in different aspects of the fougere type.
 

AdamE

Well-known member
Jul 15, 2019
I think classic barbershop when I think of Fougere. Ive heard people reference Sauvage as a "modern fougere" but idk about that. Im not sure what would really qualify as a modern or if Sauvage does?
 

pavomi

Well-known member
Sep 3, 2016
it would be great to open the brief from a mens barbershop fragrance to a gender free perfume. i'm avoiding the term 'unisex' in purpose.
 

xii

Well-known member
Jun 9, 2015
My understanding of the modern fougere is, that it reproduces certain features of GIT and therefore is built around DHM, Ambroxan and AAG or similar stuff. It's going to be messy to define.
 

Hazel_

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Feb 8, 2021
anyone want to volunteer to write the brief?

I don't necessarily want to volunteer to be the person in charge of the brief, but maybe I can help us get started?

PRELIM FOUGÈRE BRIEF
Create a perfume containing notes of coumarin, bergamot/citrus, lavender/geranium, vetiver, labdanum and oakmoss. The opening should be bright, fresh, and green (think: fern!). The drydown should be spicy and herbal, in addition to the coumarin.

I tried to be open-ended but still specific enough that everyone would have some essential basic elements to hit (bright/fresh opening + spicy/herbal drydown). If nobody likes this, I'm totally ok with it, but ime it's easier sometimes to edit than kick off, so I thought I'd kick off!
 

Geco

Well-known member
Jun 14, 2015
Please for people like me , describe both classic and modern fougere- I understand it’s supposed to smell of ferns ( which have no smell) - but I have never consciously smelled it- so even some people samples of available perfumes that are classic or modern, it would be really helpful!

First versions of :
Patou Homme, Gucci Nobile, Guerlain Heritage, Dolce & Gabbana pour Homme,my favourites.
But there are a dozens of fougere,classic or contemporary: Amouage Jubilation XXV, Paco Rabanne Homme, Azzaro Homme, Sartorial Penhaligon's,etc etc etc.
Danger of "barbershop" effect...;-)
 
Dec 13, 2019
Please for people like me , describe both classic and modern fougere- I understand it’s supposed to smell of ferns ( which have no smell) - but I have never consciously smelled it- so even some people samples of available perfumes that are classic or modern, it would be really helpful!

Typical classic fougere are Fougere Royal Houbigant and Jicky Guerlain (Jicky has oriental elements). Even though they are very old, you can smell them, because they are still produced today, and despite reformulation, they should still refer to the classic fougere. The first modern fougere are, for example, Azzaro pour Homme and Drakkar Noir Guy Laroche, and since then, virtually all of the fougere produced are modern compositions.
 

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