The Beautiful Stink - What Ugly Materials Do You Use?

[jfrater]

Roudnitska said that the key to a great perfume is the small amount of "ugly" that you add. In patchwork quilting this is also true - in the vast array of fabrics chosen for a quilt, the maker always picks a square she finds ugly to incorporate.

So my question is this: what are the really awful smelling materials you use and why?

I'll start wtih two:

Dimethyl sulfide: the foul stink of cabbage. This is indispensible in marine accords as the real small of the sea (as determined by headspace analysis) comprises large amounts of the stuff. It's also very naturalising in rose and fruit.

Skatole: if you need a stronger indole note, you can use a bit of skatole to boost the indole. It is an excellent naturaliser and rounder - but easily overwhelms and can flatten a fragrance. It synnergises with sandalwood so you can get unusual (but lovely) results using civet or a civet replacer with genuine sandalwood. This could also explain how Monsieur Coty got away with 1% pure civet absolute in Chypre!

 

[David Ruskin]

Tastes change. The "beautiful stink" is less popular than it used to be, resulting in the, mostly bland, fragrances on sale today. 1.0% Civet in anything sold today would, I'm sorry to say, not be acceptable. When Coty launched Chypre people stank. Even the richest did not wash that often. It was difficult to wash clothes properly. I am sure that if I were able to re-visit the 1960's I would be aware of a much stronger background of body odour than is noticeable today. Civet and Musk in modern perfumery is on the wain, but Oud and the many powerful animalic woody ambers are very popular. Without realising it, we enjoy a "beautiful stink". we have to be more subtle about it.

DMS, and Skatole, Civet, and Castoreum. Buchu and Bourgeons de Cassis, Grapelione and Corps 1490. Furfural mercaptan. Geosmin and the pyrazines. Proper Musk, and Costus All of these, in the right amounts are vital for a fragrance that goes "zing".

 

[jfrater]

Tastes change. The "beautiful stink" is less popular than it used to be, resulting in the, mostly bland, fragrances on sale today. 1.0% Civet in anything sold today would, I'm sorry to say, not be acceptable. When Coty launched Chypre people stank. Even the richest did not wash that often. It was difficult to wash clothes properly. I am sure that if I were able to re-visit the 1960's I would be aware of a much stronger background of body odour than is noticeable today. Civet and Musk in modern perfumery is on the wain, but Oud and the many powerful animalic woody ambers are very popular. Without realising it, we enjoy a "beautiful stink". we have to be more subtle about it.

DMS, and Skatole, Civet, and Castoreum. Buchu and Bourgeons de Cassis, Grapelione and Corps 1490. Furfural mercaptan. Geosmin and the pyrazines. Proper Musk, and Costus All of these, in the right amounts are vital for a fragrance that goes "zing".

I disagree that people stank - I think that is a myth inspired by the presumption that as people bathed less often they must have smelled bad. It often tags along with the myth that incense in Church was to hide the stench of people - yet we never did that in theatres or any other places involving large gatherings of people.

I do agree that tastes change though. Happily I see one of the most recent releases from Chanel (Le Lion) is heading back in the direction of bold '80s style perfumery so a reversion appears to be on the horizon at least.

David - have you smelled the original Chypre by coty? The huge dose of oakmoss + sandalwood and other rich materials really does balance with the civet and while it is obviously there, it is not there in a bad way. I have worn the original out and received compliments from strangers.

 

[pkiler]

Oh Yes, I've learned to use DMS from David Ruskin!

Sulfurics and Mercaptans for fruits.
Pyrazines and furans for some gourmands.

Ethyl Vinyl Ketone is really interesting,
plus Oxane for several things.

My inventory of these smelly things is over 50, so I won't list them all.

 

[Deleted member 26348570]

I hate to be the first amateur to reply to this thread, but stinky/zingy gets me excited. I need more of these materials!

 

[Casper_grassy]

Milk Lactone really grosses me out and still does. But I was making a caramel accord and the outcome was Flan/Creme Caramel (practically spot on) and for some reason I decided to actually try and use ML, it definitely is better in blends than individually.

Another which at first I was horrified by was Seaweed Abs but I can say it’s a favorite of mine, it can be used beyond marine and it has a way to add elegance and almost a “smell expensive” nuance, especially when creating the “for him/L’homme” realm.

I think it was either you Jamie or David who said to swap out Indole with Skatole in whatever blend, it’s a great exercise for anyone curious about skatole

 

[David Ruskin]

I disagree that people stank - I think that is a myth inspired by the presumption that as people bathed less often they must have smelled bad. It often tags along with the myth that incense in Church was to hide the stench of people - yet we never did that in theatres or any other places involving large gatherings of people.

I do agree that tastes change though. Happily I see one of the most recent releases from Chanel (Le Lion) is heading back in the direction of bold '80s style perfumery so a reversion appears to be on the horizon at least.

David - have you smelled the original Chypre by coty? The huge dose of oakmoss + sandalwood and other rich materials really does balance with the civet and while it is obviously there, it is not there in a bad way. I have worn the original out and received compliments from strangers.

Having smoked for many years, now given up for nearly 20years, I am disgusted by the smell of stale cigarette smoke. We used to smoke in pubs, in buses, on the tube, in cinemas and on planes; we never noticed the stench. In the 50s and 60s few men used deodorant, few people showered. I can remember, when I went to school, having a bath only once a week. I would have a sink wash every day but I don't think it can compare to today's level of hygiene.

I always thought that the early church regarded hygiene with suspicion. Surely incense is the original per fumum from which all of this derives.

I was allowed to smell the original Chypre at an ISIPCA meeting. One of the greatest fragrances ever, and totally unsuited to the contemporary market.

 

[pkiler]

I couldn't stand an old boss' vehicle, the whole car smelled like his sebum oil.
And that wasn't even any bacterial BO, just his head... LOL!

 

[Mando]

What era of Coty Chypre do you wear, Jamie? Or is it one you’ve reconstructed yourself?
I have a late 50s/early 60s Chypre parfum de toilette. It’s a very powdery version I have. I’m testing it out again now and it has a lot of bergamot over the sandalwood and oakmoss. I’m not getting a ton of civet sadly. I am noticing the musks.
I can completely see where Coty Chypre inspired the original Chanel for Men from the 50s.

I love civet. It’s one of my most fave animalics. I love how it was used in the original Shocking de Schiaparelli. It oozes of civet with honey.
I really want to try out skatole but I’m so afraid of dropping it anywhere if I had it cause of how powerful I’ve read that it is.
Skatole is very difficult to obtain here in the US in small quantities. None of the retailers here offer it that I’m aware of.

I had ordered it diluted from Pell Well but the bottle leaked and luckily it was in a sealed bag. I could smell it but I got afraid that it would reek out my lab area, thankfully not in my main house where I live. I ended up throwing it out LOL!!!!

 

[RomanB]

I disagree that people stank - I think that is a myth inspired by the presumption that as people bathed less often they must have smelled bad. It often tags along with the myth that incense in Church was to hide the stench of people - yet we never did that in theatres or any other places involving large gatherings of people.

I do agree that tastes change though. Happily I see one of the most recent releases from Chanel (Le Lion) is heading back in the direction of bold '80s style perfumery so a reversion appears to be on the horizon at least.

David - have you smelled the original Chypre by coty? The huge dose of oakmoss + sandalwood and other rich materials really does balance with the civet and while it is obviously there, it is not there in a bad way. I have worn the original out and received compliments from strangers.

Incense in Church was and is used to hide odor of deceased corpses located inside for rites. I used to live in an Orthodox village for a couple of years, people there died every several days and there was no embalmer there, so corpses were decomposing during three days before burial.

 

[pkiler]

I was able to purchase this bottle, mid 1920's era version, and was nearly full. Couldn't ever get the stopper off though. Ended up breaking the entire top of the bottle off at the corner seam line, but didn't even spill a drop. 😀

 

[jfrater]

Incense in Church was and is used to hide odor of deceased corpses located inside for rites. I used to live in an Orthodox village for a couple of years, people there died every several days and there was no embalmer there, so corpses were decomposing during three days before burial.

Incense is used to signify the passage of prayers to heaven - hiding the smell of dead bodies may have a secondary unintended consequence but it is entirely part of the ritual offering. Incense is used at every high Mass (traditionally) including those which are not funeral Masses.

The use of incense in Christendom comes from the Mass's symbolism having roots in the Jewish temple sacrifices and rituals which no longer exist (except amongst the Samaritans).

St Thomas Aquinas said: "Figures that signify what should always be done should not end, as is clear in the example of using incense, which signifies devotion.” and scripturally "Let my prayer, O Lord, be directed as incense in Thy sight." (Psalm 140[141]:2)

 

[jfrater]

I was able to purchase this bottle, mid 1920's era version, and was nearly full. Couldn't ever get the stopper off though. Ended up breaking the entire top of the bottle off at the corner seam line, but didn't even spill a drop. 😀

Luckily you didn't spill it! It is a treasure.

 

[pkiler]

Exodus chapter 30 has the formula for both the Holy Anointing perfume oil, and the Holy Incense.
Stated with the proviso not to make it for your own use.

 

[Eric Anthony]

My favorites are:

Isobutyric Acid (be cautious it is aggressive neat) but I love the zingy cherry smell atop the smell of children's feet (as in a toddlers).
Butyl Butyro Lactate, more stinky, feety, cheese smell.

Noted above by some I too have a strange smell attraction to some weird body smells.
The hair follicle smell, the earwax smell, and generally light BO.
Perhaps these all related to me being a father (children smells) or being intimate with woman (which HAVING children implies I've at least done so once). lol.

 

[Solua Botanica]

Civet, Skunk and Seaweed abs.
My collection of beautiful stink is very small I guess.
Also, adding a little 'beautiful stink' to a perfume is not something I'm used to doing.
I have a lot of experimenting to do in that regard...

 

[jfrater]

What era of Coty Chypre do you wear, Jamie? Or is it one you’ve reconstructed yourself?
I have a late 50s/early 60s Chypre parfum de toilette. It’s a very powdery version I have. I’m testing it out again now and it has a lot of bergamot over the sandalwood and oakmoss. I’m not getting a ton of civet sadly. I am noticing the musks.
I can completely see where Coty Chypre inspired the original Chanel for Men from the 50s.

I love civet. It’s one of my most fave animalics. I love how it was used in the original Shocking de Schiaparelli. It oozes of civet with honey.
I really want to try out skatole but I’m so afraid of dropping it anywhere if I had it cause of how powerful I’ve read that it is.
Skatole is very difficult to obtain here in the US in small quantities. None of the retailers here offer it that I’m aware of.

I had ordered it diluted from Pell Well but the bottle leaked and luckily it was in a sealed bag. I could smell it but I got afraid that it would reek out my lab area, thankfully not in my main house where I live. I ended up throwing it out LOL!!!!

I have the very first edition plus the later changed version made by Coty himself. The second version (under Coty's guidance) removed musk ambrette, increased musk ketone, and added Ambrarome. I also have a version from the mid century and another from the '70s which is already quite a different beast from Coty's original - no doubt due to cheapning. The oakmoss in the original was 8% of the total, and there was a lot of coumarin.

I also love Shocking - Jean Carles is my favourite perfumer - here's the bottle I have:



I use skatole a fair amount in very tiny amounts for naturalising. You should definitely give it another try with PellWall - get the 1% and then dilute it down to 0.1 and 0.01. Below that is not overly practical for my needs but you may find it helpful. It exists in a very big dose in Nuit de Chine and it is unbelievably magical. It may be part of a synthetic civet base but wow - with an overdose of Rose D'Orient and Mysore sandalwood it is out of this world.

I also have the original Chanel Pour Monsieur - it is amazing! So complex and interesting compared to the version they sell today. My bottle is crystal.

 

[jfrater]

Exodus chapter 30 has the formula for both the Holy Anointing perfume oil, and the Holy Incense.
Stated with the proviso not to make it for your own use.

Interesting! If I may quote it: "Take unto thee spices, stacte (styrax - LXX, or Myrrh), and onycha (possibly labdanum), galbanum of sweet savour, and the clearest frankincense, all shall be of equal weight."

 

[jfrater]

Civet, Skunk and Seaweed abs.
My collection of beautiful stink is very small I guess.
Also, adding a little 'beautiful stink' to a perfume is not something I'm used to doing.
I have a lot of experimenting to do in that regard...

I have yet to smell skunk - I nearly bought some musk once but for some reason I didn't. Seawood is really interesting and I believe some people use it to give the sense of oakmoss - though in my case I used it in a marine fragrance.

 

[RomanB]

I have the very first edition plus the later changed version made by Coty himself. The second version (under Coty's guidance) removed musk ambrette, increased musk ketone, and added Ambrarome. I also have a version from the mid century and another from the '70s which is already quite a different beast from Coty's original - no doubt due to cheapning. The oakmoss in the original was 8% of the total, and there was a lot of coumarin.

I also love Shocking - Jean Carles is my favourite perfumer - here's the bottle I have:

View attachment 314272

I use skatole a fair amount in very tiny amounts for naturalising. You should definitely give it another try with PellWall - get the 1% and then dilute it down to 0.1 and 0.01. Below that is not overly practical for my needs but you may find it helpful. It exists in a very big dose in Nuit de Chine and it is unbelievably magical. It may be part of a synthetic civet base but wow - with an overdose of Rose D'Orient and Mysore sandalwood it is out of this world.

I also have the original Chanel Pour Monsieur - it is amazing! So complex and interesting compared to the version they sell today. My bottle is crystal.

View attachment 314273

Why do you store all those riches without Parafilm and Glindemann rings?!

 

[ScentAle]

I vote civet for the ugliest but useful. All I smell is an old strong urinous note, but I find indispensable for make some type of narcotic flower compositions. In a complex fragrance can really be a game changer.
Corps guava too, that is extremely strong also in tiny dose, sulphurous fruit, weird beast, but can be nice for tropical fruits.

 

[pkiler]

I have yet to smell skunk - I nearly bought some musk once but for some reason I didn't.

If you go to a large coffee maker machine, such as one used to make many liters at once, and remove the spent coffee in the filter while still steaming, push your nose into it, the concentration of odor sort of approaches what a Skunk smells like, except about 10X-250X stronger, depending upon how close you are to where the skunk sprayed or was run over, in both space and time.

 

[tensor9]

I have yet to smell skunk - I nearly bought some musk once but for some reason I didn't. Seawood is really interesting and I believe some people use it to give the sense of oakmoss - though in my case I used it in a marine fragrance.

You’ve never smelled skunk? How have you avoided it?

It is a foul, foul stench. Skunk roadkill will stink up the area for miles around.

Oddly enough, there is a small percentage of people who like the smell.

 

[Eric Anthony]

You’ve never smelled skunk? How have you avoided it?

It is a foul, foul stench. Skunk roadkill will stink up the area for miles around.

Oddly enough, there is a small percentage of people who like the smell.

Agree, skunk smell, and stink bug never bothered me. I get a distinct green apple note from stinkbugs.
Marijuana has a bit of a skunk smell I do quite enjoy skunk smells.
Reminds me of the commission I had for a "cocaine" fragrance. That was difficult to research!

 

[jfrater]

Why do you store all those riches without Parafilm and Glindemann rings?!

I wear them all

 

[jfrater]

If you go to a large coffee maker machine, such as one used to make many liters at once, and remove the spent coffee in the filter while still steaming, push your nose into it, the concentration of odor sort of approaches what a Skunk smells like, except about 10X-250X stronger, depending upon how close you are to where the skunk sprayed or was run over, in both space and time.

That is really interesting - I wonder if that suggests a use for skunk in a coffee type fragrance. I'm not aware of anyone using skunk in a perfume but I don't see you shouldn't be able to potentially. Onion oil is awful but can work in a hyacinth base, so why not skunk if it has a commonality with coffee - albeit abstract.

 

[RomanB]

I wear them all

Glindemann rings allow to easily open and close bottles. However, they provide several orders of magnitude better protection against evaporation and contact with oxygen than just glass stoppers.

 

[Mr.P]

A skunk makes more than one smell I think. My expertise comes from having a family of skunks living under my house for some time.

One of their aromas is classic skunky almost like skunk weed for those of you who have smelled that type of cannabis. The other is like strong garlic, and to me at least becomes extremely nauseating.

Before we realized we had skunks, we had a strange experience one day. We were sitting at the breakfast table, I mentioned that in all of my dreams I dreamed I was smelling garlic. Sure enough my wife and daughter had both had dreams involving the smell of garlic. That particular morning there was no residual smell that we could detect so we were confused as to why we had the shared experience.

We saw the skunks in our yard not long after that.

it took us a while to get rid of them, but they didn’t cause too much stink, except for one other daytime, strong, garlic episode that was just awful.

 

[Mando]

YAY!!! Perfumers Apprentice now carries Skatole 1% in BB.
Must order!
I’m really interested in making a Nuit de Chine type of scent that Jamie has discussed here. I bought a small sample of it in Eau de Cologne earlier this year. Very faint smelling in that version 🙁
Ive been trying to find more info on it but info is scant sadly.
I really love to own the original bottle of it In the Chinese snuff bottle. Mighty expensive when you do find it.

 

[Mando]

I was able to purchase this bottle, mid 1920's era version, and was nearly full. Couldn't ever get the stopper off though. Ended up breaking the entire top of the bottle off at the corner seam line, but didn't even spill a drop. 😀

I have that bottle but it’s empty. A friend gave it to me long ago. I used to collect commercial perfume bottles.

I have a big display bottle of Shocking with many other Schiap items

 

[Solua Botanica]

A skunk makes more than one smell I think.

You are so right... I also got a chance to meet a defensive skunk way at the last minute.
I actually got to see the fumes coming out of its rear end ! For a long time, I thought it was a liquid spray, but after seeing it up close and almost throwing up, I can say that they send an atomized cloud of dense fumes...it is something else than the 'skunk' smell we all think of.
Definitely garlicky with a weird note of burnt rubber and overheating brakes. The cloud is heavy and tenacious and will contaminate whatever it touches for days or weeks. The potency of the skunk changes according to the seasons...when they just come out of hibernation is when it is most potent.
The bottle of pure juice I have is so stinky, there is not a lid in the world that can keep it in the bottle.
The best way to keep these excessively strong materials is to bury them in sand, in a closed bucket.
I have hardly used it out of fear...my experiments at 0.1 % were disastrous and I got everyone in the house mad at my hobby !
Just like that time when I prepared my civet paste tincture a little too close to dinner time !

 

[Kacper Kafel]

...

 

[pkiler]

You’ve never smelled skunk? How have you avoided it?

Skunks don't reside in New Zealand. Only in North America...
David Ruskin has never smelled a skunk, either...
Even IF you are in North America, visiting, just getting to smell a skunk is going to be pretty rare...

 

[Alex F.]

Speaking of skunks (https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg12717282-900-science-the-seven-deadly-smells-of-a-skunk/) and sulphur, I'd like to throw in asafoetida (Ferula assa-foetida). It smells strongly oniony-sulphurous, with fruity topnotes. Traces go well with fruity and floral notes. Dosed just right, it can add the impression of ripeness, but there's a fine line between that and rot.

 

[Darren Alan]

I was able to purchase this bottle, mid 1920's era version, and was nearly full. Couldn't ever get the stopper off though. Ended up breaking the entire top of the bottle off at the corner seam line, but didn't even spill a drop. 😀

😍

 

[Darren Alan]

Valerian root oil in EXTREME dilution gives me a costus root/civet absolute vibe. It does unspeakably beautiful things to patchouli IMO

 

[Thioacetone]

Agree, skunk smell, and stink bug never bothered me. I get a distinct green apple note from stinkbugs.
Marijuana has a bit of a skunk smell I do quite enjoy skunk smells.
Reminds me of the commission I had for a "cocaine" fragrance. That was difficult to research!

How did you research your cocaine fragrance

 

[Thioacetone]

I found that with skatole used at a low %, the fragrance will smell fine at first, but then as the other components evaporate, the fecal scent of skatole becomes obvious and overwhelming. Maybe I am using too much

 

[David Ruskin]

Speaking of skunks (https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg12717282-900-science-the-seven-deadly-smells-of-a-skunk/) and sulphur, I'd like to throw in asafoetida (Ferula assa-foetida). It smells strongly oniony-sulphurous, with fruity topnotes. Traces go well with fruity and floral notes. Dosed just right, it can add the impression of ripeness, but there's a fine line between that and rot.

Sorry I forgot about Asafoedita, very useful in tiny amounts. It was/is used to adulterate diluted Galbanum oil, to make it appear stronger.

All of the sulphur containing chemicals are useful, especially in fruity notes, giving a ripe quality.

 

[Thioacetone]

I'm in the process of making a fish sauce absolute. It will smell horrendous!