Technical questions from the experienced perfumers!

[LaFou]

Hello everyone,
happy belated new year, I hope you are all starting and started the year with lots of health, happiness and prosperity

i am saddened that Im not coming here to BN as much as I want, which is daily! But life and work gets most of us!

I would like to ask some technical questions from experienced perfumers who launched their brand, I hope they can support me on it,

- If I create a perfume formula, how can I copy protect it if I want to send it for production

- if the above question is not feasible, do I have to create the formula concentrate and send it production? if this is the case, it won’t work on large scale and I would have to rent or create a lab? I ask if there’s a way to avoid creating a lab, which will be great help to Start with.

- if I commission a fragrance house example like Firmenich to create a perfume for me, will the formula be mine legally?

- whats the best way to guarantee that the production factory will not tamper with alcohol % and affect the final product?
With example for why I ask, I tried 3 factories here with same formula and I got 3 different results! But that was on a very small scale and without any papers!…
do I need to sign them an agreement in this case, which states that I will do testing for random bottles after production to ensure on quality?

- why did I get 3 results in 3 factories? Could it be more than just alcohol % ? Is there different reasons I should consider? they all use the same alcohol! Could it be that they are not honest about the quality of alcohol?

- do I need to sign with the factory an NDA and NUA agreements? to ensure not to copy or keep some of the concentrate, or replace it, or copy the bottle shape, all of these matters in general?

- is it better to invest and buy machines , and do the process myself?

- if I Invest in machines, do I need to create the place with the same medical lab requirements and quality process?

thank You in advance for your support, i hold a great value of the feedback I receive here, as it came always true and to the point and with most accurate results,

sincere regards

 

[jfrater]

Hello everyone,
happy belated new year, I hope you are all starting and started the year with lots of health, happiness and prosperity

i am saddened that Im not coming here to BN as much as I want, which is daily! But life and work gets most of us!

I would like to ask some technical questions from experienced perfumers who launched their brand, I hope they can support me on it,

- If I create a perfume formula, how can I copy protect it if I want to send it for production

- if the above question is not feasible, do I have to create the formula concentrate and send it production? if this is the case, it won’t work on large scale and I would have to rent or create a lab? I ask if there’s a way to avoid creating a lab, which will be great help to Start with.

- if I commission a fragrance house example like Firmenich to create a perfume for me, will the formula be mine legally?

- whats the best way to guarantee that the production factory will not tamper with alcohol % and affect the final product?
With example for why I ask, I tried 3 factories here with same formula and I got 3 different results! But that was on a very small scale and without any papers!…
do I need to sign them an agreement in this case, which states that I will do testing for random bottles after production to ensure on quality?

- why did I get 3 results in 3 factories? Could it be more than just alcohol % ? Is there different reasons I should consider? they all use the same alcohol! Could it be that they are not honest about the quality of alcohol?

- do I need to sign with the factory an NDA and NUA agreements? to ensure not to copy or keep some of the concentrate, or replace it, or copy the bottle shape, all of these matters in general?

- is it better to invest and buy machines , and do the process myself?

- if I Invest in machines, do I need to create the place with the same medical lab requirements and quality process?

thank You in advance for your support, i hold a great value of the feedback I receive here, as it came always true and to the point and with most accurate results,

sincere regards

1. You need an NDA (non-disclosure agreement) to protect your formula. You must simply rely on the law. Alternatively consider sending only a portion of the formul to be compounded - perhaps don't include any naturals or bases - or send half to one compounder, and half to another. I believe Coca Cola does that to ensure that their formula is never given entirely to one place.

2. The above IS feasible. Perfumers Apprentice can compound at 1kg minmum for you when you start, and Edmund Roudnitska's son runs a very successful company in France compounding from 5KG minimums. HOWEVER: blending that with alcohol and conditioning and resting and bottling is not done by compounding companys (oil houses) you would need to find another company for that or do it yourself.

3. No - they will not give you the formula (but they won't sell it to others). Part of how they make their money is to compound the perfume themselves and make a little more profit on the manufacture. This is true of independents often too though some may be willing to give you a formula instead at a higher cost for development of the formula itself.

4. Different prices are typically due to volume I would say - one company may be buying 100 tons of alcohol, the other only 10. The price difference will be reflected in that. Plus every company is different with different overheads. Do good due diligence and pick a company you really trust and you should be fine.

5. Yes, as mentioned in 1 - you need to protect your brand and you do this through legal means, NDAs, trademark laws, patents if possible, etc.

6. For a new brand no. Don't buy machinery to do it all yourself. HOWEVER you could consider going down that path later and even opening up your facilities to third parties via contracted services. In other words, you could plan your business as a compounding service also - not just a perfume house. Just as a man who owns 500 houses may create a subsidiary house cleaning company which he then also hires out to other property owners - making a secondary stream of income.

7. You would simply have to follow the regulations of your nation (or the nation in which you build your factory) as they apply to cosmetics manufacture.

 

[LaFou]

1. You need an NDA (non-disclosure agreement) to protect your formula. You must simply rely on the law. Alternatively consider sending only a portion of the formul to be compounded - perhaps don't include any naturals or bases - or send half to one compounder, and half to another. I believe Coca Cola does that to ensure that their formula is never given entirely to one place.

2. The above IS feasible. Perfumers Apprentice can compound at 1kg minmum for you when you start, and Edmund Roudnitska's son runs a very successful company in France compounding from 5KG minimums. HOWEVER: blending that with alcohol and conditioning and resting and bottling is not done by compounding companys (oil houses) you would need to find another company for that or do it yourself.

3. No - they will not give you the formula (but they won't sell it to others). Part of how they make their money is to compound the perfume themselves and make a little more profit on the manufacture. This is true of independents often too though some may be willing to give you a formula instead at a higher cost for development of the formula itself.

4. Different prices are typically due to volume I would say - one company may be buying 100 tons of alcohol, the other only 10. The price difference will be reflected in that. Plus every company is different with different overheads. Do good due diligence and pick a company you really trust and you should be fine.

5. Yes, as mentioned in 1 - you need to protect your brand and you do this through legal means, NDAs, trademark laws, patents if possible, etc.

6. For a new brand no. Don't buy machinery to do it all yourself. HOWEVER you could consider going down that path later and even opening up your facilities to third parties via contracted services. In other words, you could plan your business as a compounding service also - not just a perfume house. Just as a man who owns 500 houses may create a subsidiary house cleaning company which he then also hires out to other property owners - making a secondary stream of income.

7. You would simply have to follow the regulations of your nation (or the nation in which you build your factory) as they apply to cosmetics manufacture.

Amazing, thank you for the reply dear sir

btw, I was going to message you now for somethings I want. Your products are without a doubt suppppper top, I was surprised of how realistic your pineapple 🍍 pufff wonderful, just wonderful. Among all the other products you have all top! Really 👍👍
I would recommend anyone whos reading this to buy from your site 👌

 

[RomanB]

Formulas are your know-how to make something, so you have to protect them as trade secrets. Start learning about their protection here. Learn local laws too, many countries have their own rules and laws concerning trade secrets.

You'll have to sign an agreement between you and the factory. They could be very simple, just cover all the necessary points, there are samples in books for independent inventors.

If you will ask Firmenich to make you a formula, they will not provide it to you. Their business is to hook you to their service and then to press to reformulate your perfume every several years.

You can make a simple test for alcohol content at an independent lab, they won't risk cheating. Really, perfume concentration is a minor concern of what can go wrong.

Production lines could be small and inexpensive, check this variant, and this too. Both fit on a table, include bottle filling, screw capping capabilities and labelling. There are variants of such lines with crimpers. If you want fancy labelling, look for a manual pad printing machine - they could do wonders if used with several different plates and colours sequentially.

You should check local laws on manufacturing - very probably you'll have to be certified for manufacturing conditions, firefighting measures, waste treatment (your industrial waste will be toxic and should be utilised in barrels by a specialised company), alcohol in industrial quantities is usually monitored by the state. Each product should be tested for safety. Also you will have to deal with logistics since the main manufacturing difficulty in making of a perfume is to accumulate right quantities of several tens of substances from many suppliers at once, check their quality and then assemble. A single good perfume could be easily 40-60 ingredients at once and more. You probably want to make a dozen of different perfumes, so you'll end with need to stock industrial quantities of 150-200 ingredients and more, easily.

Your most serious concern will be not to manufacture it, but to sell. This is a business with oligopolies having most of the market in their hands. Yes, you could trade on etsy or amazon, or use another fulfilment options, but you will have to invest a lot of effort and money into marketing, absolutely with no guarantee of success. Major perfume houses with enormous resources frequently fail with their best brands. So to say, contemporary Chanel №5 is a pale copy of its original self and buyers feel it. Chanel failed to make a really good reformulation to preserve its glory.

 

[pkiler]

I don't expect that a compounder has the same materials that I use, nor have everything in my formula.
If you are getting different results from their samples sent back of your formula, they may be substituting materials for what they don't have, changing the formula used, and their naturals are different from yours.
I maintain a very tight control over the materials used in a compounded fragrance. And I maintain a good relationship with my compounders so that the results are as close as possible to my intent and need. Often, I let the compounder make the formula from what they do stock, get it sent back to me and finish it off with the missing materials, then send it on to the client as a finished product that I know meets my expectations, and what the client signed off on.

 

[mnitabach]

I don't expect that a compounder has the same materials that I use, nor have everything in my formula.
If you are getting different results from their samples sent back of your formula, they may be substituting materials for what they don't have, changing the formula used, and their naturals are different from yours.
I maintain a very tight control over the materials used in a compounded fragrance. And I maintain a good relationship with my compounders so that the results are as close as possible to my intent and need. Often, I let the compounder make the formula from what they do stock, get it sent back to me and finish it off with the missing materials, then send it on to the client as a finished product that I know meets my expectations, and what the client signed off on.

That sounds like such a labor- and resource-intensive pipeline & like your passion for the art is a huge incentive.

 

[LaFou]

Formulas are your know-how to make something, so you have to protect them as trade secrets. Start learning about their protection here. Learn local laws too, many countries have their own rules and laws concerning trade secrets.

You'll have to sign an agreement between you and the factory. They could be very simple, just cover all the necessary points, there are samples in books for independent inventors.

If you will ask Firmenich to make you a formula, they will not provide it to you. Their business is to hook you to their service and then to press to reformulate your perfume every several years.

You can make a simple test for alcohol content at an independent lab, they won't risk cheating. Really, perfume concentration is a minor concern of what can go wrong.

Production lines could be small and inexpensive, check this variant, and this too. Both fit on a table, include bottle filling, screw capping capabilities and labelling. There are variants of such lines with crimpers. If you want fancy labelling, look for a manual pad printing machine - they could do wonders if used with several different plates and colours sequentially.

You should check local laws on manufacturing - very probably you'll have to be certified for manufacturing conditions, firefighting measures, waste treatment (your industrial waste will be toxic and should be utilised in barrels by a specialised company), alcohol in industrial quantities is usually monitored by the state. Each product should be tested for safety. Also you will have to deal with logistics since the main manufacturing difficulty in making of a perfume is to accumulate right quantities of several tens of substances from many suppliers at once, check their quality and then assemble. A single good perfume could be easily 40-60 ingredients at once and more. You probably want to make a dozen of different perfumes, so you'll end with need to stock industrial quantities of 150-200 ingredients and more, easily.

Your most serious concern will be not to manufacture it, but to sell. This is a business with oligopolies having most of the market in their hands. Yes, you could trade on etsy or amazon, or use another fulfilment options, but you will have to invest a lot of effort and money into marketing, absolutely with no guarantee of success. Major perfume houses with enormous resources frequently fail with their best brands. So to say, contemporary Chanel №5 is a pale copy of its original self and buyers feel it. Chanel failed to make a really good reformulation to preserve its glory.

Oh brother, you went beyond and above, many thanks for your reply it’s really helpful, 🙏🙏 especially for the machinery advise! all is noted! Thanj you again

 

[LaFou]

I don't expect that a compounder has the same materials that I use, nor have everything in my formula.
If you are getting different results from their samples sent back of your formula, they may be substituting materials for what they don't have, changing the formula used, and their naturals are different from yours.
I maintain a very tight control over the materials used in a compounded fragrance. And I maintain a good relationship with my compounders so that the results are as close as possible to my intent and need. Often, I let the compounder make the formula from what they do stock, get it sent back to me and finish it off with the missing materials, then send it on to the client as a finished product that I know meets my expectations, and what the client signed off on.

Yes, it seems that there was alterations from factories, in both of good and bad intentions!
i see now is best to maintain full control over the composition process, I found alternative solutions where I am able to rent lab for few days and when needed! And I can set my own personal working space Instead!

Let’s see, as I’m still in practice research phase! A sort of actual rehearsal
Thank you Paul,

 

[synesthete]

I just want to take a moment to show some appreciation for the established perfumers that share their knowledge and answer questions to help us all out. Thank you.

 

[LaFou]

I just want to take a moment to show some appreciation for the established perfumers that share their knowledge and answer questions to help us all out. Thank you.

I second that, much respect and appreciation

 

[LaFou]

I don't expect that a compounder has the same materials that I use, nor have everything in my formula.
If you are getting different results from their samples sent back of your formula, they may be substituting materials for what they don't have, changing the formula used, and their naturals are different from yours.
I maintain a very tight control over the materials used in a compounded fragrance. And I maintain a good relationship with my compounders so that the results are as close as possible to my intent and need. Often, I let the compounder make the formula from what they do stock, get it sent back to me and finish it off with the missing materials, then send it on to the client as a finished product that I know meets my expectations, and what the client signed off on.

Paul I started recently following your advice, working in neat concentrations.. it has much more accurate advantage, like really much more, as it reduced drastically not only the inaccuracy, but, as well minimized the chemical alterations to the materials due to dilution!

still, the obvious disadvantage is the price of materials, and I encourage those who wants to work properly and accurately to take,

but another disadvantage, is the work with complicated materials like aldehydes! 🤦‍♂️
I still have no idea why those materials hates me! I factor in the 1/10 or 1/100 strength element when working with it, but I lost some batches due to it taking over with no chance of recovery 😅

Any advice on that? should I factor 1/1000 🤣

and what’s really making me beat my head to the wall, is how some famous formulas like channel no 5 were able to use extremely high number and percentage of aldehyde in the formula and worked perfectly! Im not sure, but was something around 40% of the formula!

Truly appreciate any additional tips on this, thanj you kindly

 

[David Ruskin]

and what’s really making me beat my head to the wall, is how some famous formulas like channel no 5 were able to use extremely high number and percentage of aldehyde in the formula and worked perfectly! Im not sure, but was something around 40% of the formula!

No idea where you heard that Chanel 5 contained 40.0% aldehydes, but it isn't true. Maybe, in total, 2.0%, and even that may be too high. No doubt someone will be able to supply the true figure.

As. always, the amount of an ingredient used depends on the rest of the formula, and its end product. When making a soap fragrance I would always use 1.0% aldehyde C10, 2.0% Aldehyde Cll undecylic, and 2.5% Aldehyde C12 Lauric. I created a fragrance for Joe Malone called Pine and eucalyptus which contained over 8.0% aldehydes ( a mixture of C10, C11, C12 Lauric, and C12 MNA). Don't think I've gone higher than that.

 

[LaFou]

No idea where you heard that Chanel 5 contained 40.0% aldehydes, but it isn't true. Maybe, in total, 2.0%, and even that may be too high. No doubt someone will be able to supply the true figure.

As. always, the amount of an ingredient used depends on the rest of the formula, and its end product. When making a soap fragrance I would always use 1.0% aldehyde C10, 2.0% Aldehyde Cll undecylic, and 2.5% Aldehyde C12 Lauric. I created a fragrance for Joe Malone called Pine and eucalyptus which contained over 8.0% aldehydes ( a mixture of C10, C11, C12 Lauric, and C12 MNA). Don't think I've gone higher than that.

That is wonderful, you are right I wasn’t sure where I heard this or read, perhaps and that’s most likely I misread or miss heard! ( Getting old my dear 😅)
thats what was making me soooo confused! thank you so much for this update! I’ll try to work within those margins and or less!

and btw, iv never went high with the percentages of any aldehydes when formulating, but I suspect, it’s due to the used materials that allowed it to take over!

correct me again if I’m wrong here, my personal experience with any formula that had aldehydes which worked in pleasant way, is that aldehydes are not particularly used for its scent, rather than a strong modifier that will open up and sort of blossom and sharpen the other dominant scents and materials!

am I wrong to assume that? speaking in general broad scale, not as per specified formula, which I know, we can’t approach in any specifics

I write this, due to a certain fact i experienced, when working with lets say easy and straight forward materials like floral, woody or fruity materials, I created many formulas which are really presentable and sometimes better than what you smell in commercial perfumes! But, nothing original about it, it’s when we start to understand complex materials, I find i am able to create more eccentric or exceptional formulas!

edit: exceptional said here in concept, not as I’m making 🤣😅 I want to be sure that no one miss understands this fact.. I’m still waaaaaay far and In learning to reach this maybe In 1 day..

 

[David Ruskin]

Aldehydes are modifiers but they are also used for their scent. As usual, the answer is "It depends". Aldehyde C8 contributes to citrus notes, especially Mandarin and, to a lesser extent, Lemon. C10 helps with Lemon, and, with a touch of ethyl butyrate, Orange notes. Aldehydes C11 undecylic, and undecylenic, help enhance floral notes especially Ylang and Jasmin. Aldehyde C12 MNA is definitely part of a clean Pine, C12 Lauric helps florals.

Also remember that as the chain length grows, so the volatility slows. Aldehyde C8 lasts for less time on a smelling strip than C12 MNA.

If you have not done so already please smell each individual aldehyde on a smelling strip. Use a 1.0% solution and, as usual, follow the progress over several hours.

Then take one of your formulae which you think is "nothing original" and try experimenting with the aldehyde solutions to see what effect, if any, they will have. From smelling the aldehydes by themselves try to pick the one or ones that you think will be most suitable, and see what happens.

I do agree that the long chain aldehydes are difficult to use as they do smell fairly unpleasant when you first come across them. So you need to take it slowly, get used to them and see what happens.

 

[LaFou]

Aldehydes are modifiers but they are also used for their scent. As usual, the answer is "It depends". Aldehyde C8 contributes to citrus notes, especially Mandarin and, to a lesser extent, Lemon. C10 helps with Lemon, and with a touch of ethyl butyrate Orange notes. Aldehydes C11 undecylic, and undecylenic, help enhance floral notes especially Ylang and Jasmin. Aldehyde C12 MNA is definitely part of a clean Pine, C12 Lauric helps florals.

Also remember that as the chain length grows, so the volatility slows. Aldehyde C8 lasts for less time on a smelling strip than C12 MNA.

If you have not done so already please smell each individual aldehyde on a smelling strip. Use a 1.0% solution and, as usual, follow the progress over several hours.

Then take one of your formulae which you think is "nothing original" and try experimenting with the aldehyde solutions to see what effect, if any, they will have. From smelling the aldehydes by themselves try to pick the one or ones that you think will be most suitable, and see what happens.

I do agree that the long chain aldehydes are difficult to use as they do smell fairly unpleasant when you first come across them. So you need to take it slowly, get used to them and see what happens.

See this is a good answer for me, especially the first 2 paragraphs, I will take it slowly, plus, I’m comparing some formulas which are made by perfumers to let’s say build a general reference of understanding about aldehydes!

honestly, I haven’t tried the 1% strips test, that’s a mistake from my side, I admit, I will do so as my next step now, ill prepare it and start taking notes accordingly!

I wish I could extend my appreciation in a different way, for your constant support, but, all I can say is thank you 🙏

in my previous days, I would have added a joke.. but these days I don’t want to take any risks 😅😅🤣🤣 weird times

cheers brother

 

[jfrater]

No idea where you heard that Chanel 5 contained 40.0% aldehydes, but it isn't true. Maybe, in total, 2.0%, and even that may be too high. No doubt someone will be able to supply the true figure.

As. always, the amount of an ingredient used depends on the rest of the formula, and its end product. When making a soap fragrance I would always use 1.0% aldehyde C10, 2.0% Aldehyde Cll undecylic, and 2.5% Aldehyde C12 Lauric. I created a fragrance for Joe Malone called Pine and eucalyptus which contained over 8.0% aldehydes ( a mixture of C10, C11, C12 Lauric, and C12 MNA). Don't think I've gone higher than that.

Indeed In the original formula equalling 1252 parts, the total aldehydes of Chanel No 5 are 4 parts each of Aldehyde C-10, Aldehyde c-11 Undecylenic, and Aldehyde C-12 MNA.

Attached are two formulas which are based heavily on No 5: Forbidden Secret (original No 5 - though simplified - original aldehyde amount but reduced to a formula totalling 1,000 parts) and Blend Five (based on the Christophe Laudamiel modern No 5 GCMS in which Aldehydes are reduced to a lower amount due to the other changes and different modern tastes).

David, may I ask why you always used the aldehyde blend you describe in that quantity? And wow on the Pine and Eucalptus! That is impressive.

 

[David Ruskin]

David, may I ask why you always used the aldehyde blend you describe in that quantity? And wow on the Pine and Eucalptus! That is impressive.

For the soaps, I used that amount because I found it usually worked. Of course the amounts were not written in stone; depending on the rest of the formula the amounts of aldehydes would be changed, but it was a good starting point. Soap fragrances usually need boosting, aldehydes boost. This is especially useful if the client wants the same fragrance over a range of end products.

 

[David Ruskin]

in my previous days, I would have added a joke.. but these days I don’t want to take any risks 😅😅🤣🤣 weird times

cheers brother

You can make a joke if you want, I won't be offended.

 

[jfrater]

For the soaps, I used that amount because I found it usually worked. Of course the amounts were not written in stone; depending on the rest of the formula the amounts of aldehydes would be changed, but it was a good starting point. Soap fragrances usually need boosting, aldehydes boost. This is especially useful if the client wants the same fragrance over a range of end products.

Ah I see. It's interesting how a fairly standard range can work across multiple scents (albeit with tweaks). It's almost likely priming a canvas.

 

[pkiler]

And just to remind, Aldehydes are a class of molecule. The C aldehydes are what you speak of now. But the actual aldehydes include vanillin, heliotropin, lilial, lyral, bourgenal, sinensal, alpha hexyl cinnamaldehyde, trans 2 hexenal, and many many, many others.

 

[LaFou]

And just to remind, Aldehydes are a class of molecule. The C aldehydes are what you speak of now. But the actual aldehydes include vanillin, heliotropin, lilial, lyral, bourgenal, sinensal, alpha hexyl cinnamaldehyde, trans 2 hexenal, and many many, many others.

So those are the ones which are constantly being referred to when speaking about in formulas, like the channel 5 example!
not the C aldehydes! Correct?
makes a huuuge difference if so!

Whats the construct of the C aldehydes then?

thank you

 

[David Ruskin]

The C aldehydes are the ones that Chanel 5 is famous for. As Paul rightly states, Aldehydes are a class of chemical compounds that all have something in common. The C aldehydes consist of a chain of carbon atoms in a line; C8 has 8 carbon atoms, and so on. The other aldehydes mentioned by Paul show different structures ( with the common grouping) and so have widely differing smells. I hope you see that the C aldehydes are similar in odour type.

 

[LaFou]

I understand, and I understand what you both mean now! It’s well noted
thank you 🙏

 

[David Ruskin]

Ah I see. It's interesting how a fairly standard range can work across multiple scents (albeit with tweaks). It's almost likely priming a canvas.

Forgive me if this is all basic stuff for you and you already know this; others may find it useful.

Let us use as an example, a client has accepted a fragrance you have created for shower gel, and now wants to know if the same fragrance can be used in shampoo, soap, candle, and reed diffusers. Obviously the answer is "No", but it should be possible to adapt the fragrance so that the same smell works in these end products.

Shampoo is the closest base to shower gel, so the same fragrance could be used. It must be tested in shampoo base, and used on hair to make sure it performs correctly.

Soap is a bit more tricky. The pH of soap is usually more alkaline than shower gel which may affect the stability of fragrance. Also performance in soap may suffer. The only way to find out is to try it and see. The fragrance in the client's soap base should be performance and stability tested, and modified accordingly. I found that the addition of the aldehydes previously mentioned helps performance.

Candle and reed diffuser both present much bigger problems. All the solvents used in the original fragrance will not be suitable for either of these end products and must be changed accordingly. Performance will be a problem and the fragrance will probably have to be modified greatly. Once again testing in end product must be carried out, and even more modifications made.

It is never straightforward.

 

[RomanB]

Forgive me if this is all basic stuff for you and you already know this; others may find it useful.

Let us use as an example, a client has accepted a fragrance you have created for shower gel, and now wants to know if the same fragrance can be used in shampoo, soap, candle, and reed diffusers. Obviously the answer is "No", but it should be possible to adapt the fragrance so that the same smell works in these end products.

Shampoo is the closest base to shower gel, so the same fragrance could be used. It must be tested in shampoo base, and used on hair to make sure it performs correctly.

Soap is a bit more tricky. The pH of soap is usually more alkaline than shower gel which may affect the stability of fragrance. Also performance in soap may suffer. The only way to find out is to try it and see. The fragrance in the client's soap base should be performance and stability tested, and modified accordingly. I found that the addition of the aldehydes previously mentioned helps performance.

Candle and reed diffuser both present much bigger problems. All the solvents used in the original fragrance will not be suitable for either of these end products and must be changed accordingly. Performance will be a problem and the fragrance will probably have to be modified greatly. Once again testing in end product must be carried out, and even more modifications made.

It is never straightforward.

Syndet soap like Cetaphil could be made with any desired pH.

 

[David Ruskin]

Syndet soap like Cetaphil could be made with any desired pH.

That is entirely and utterly beside the point.

RomanB, if you don't "get it", please ask and I will try to explain.

 

[LaFou]

I don't expect that a compounder has the same materials that I use, nor have everything in my formula.
If you are getting different results from their samples sent back of your formula, they may be substituting materials for what they don't have, changing the formula used, and their naturals are different from yours.
I maintain a very tight control over the materials used in a compounded fragrance. And I maintain a good relationship with my compounders so that the results are as close as possible to my intent and need. Often, I let the compounder make the formula from what they do stock, get it sent back to me and finish it off with the missing materials, then send it on to the client as a finished product that I know meets my expectations, and what the client signed off on.

Sorry, I want to re-address another question here!

so when you say compounder, do you actually send him the formula?
Isn’t that a risk factor? I understand you have a good relationship with them, but it’s still is? Correct!?

Perhaps your relationship with them goes a long way too! I don’t have that luxury unfortunately, Im 100% confident, if I have a successful formula and I send to compounder by factory, they will use it, and most likely their version will comes out before mine 🤣🤣🤣

what worries me in the future and in the coming year or so, is how will I manage to compound a formula on a big scale!
the ones from if commissioned a fragrance house is easy, but let’s say if I have one myself, I have to rent a lab! No other way!
but, I’m way ahead on that, I’ll find a solution when I reach this point.

when you make the juice, how do you store it!? For maturation? On large scale I mean? metal containers? Or something different!?

Is perfume like whiskey, perhaps? If I store in wooden barrel to mature, it will affect differently? Or destroy the large formula concentrate?

 

[LaFou]

You can make a joke if you want, I won't be offended.

No i know you won’t, it’s not you im worried about! 🤣 perhaps that’s the joke itself!
but in general I mean I’ll add a joke as a thank you! Perhaps if we meet someday at some exhibition or something I’ll tell you in person