Sweet Rose accord help

parker25mv

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2016
Note that there can be major differences in side- or off-notes of different PEA materials. For example, I have directly compared what Pell Wall sells as chemical synthetic PEA vs their biotechnology "natural" PEA & they are dramatically different. The latter is smooth radiant silky compared to the chemically somewhat harsh tone of the former. Now that I've worked with the latter, it's all I'll use. Of course, it is dramatically more expensive than chemical synthetic... 😹 😹 😹
Well that's unexpected. It must be tiny impurities in the synthetic I would guess. The molecules should be exactly the same. I wonder if the synthetic PEA they are selling is not a high enough quality and might not truly be perfumer grade. (Though I can't say for sure)

I do know that natural citronellol smells noticeably better than the synthetic.
 

Michael Andrews

Well-known member
May 23, 2020
Playing around the Jean Carles way yesterday, I ended up with something simple like this below.

Geraniol 95447
Citronellol (Natural)281
PEA272
1000

Your formula above for PEA heavy rose is flipped to mine, with way more PEA and double the Citronellol to Geraniol.

I made both this morning and compared the two.

I actually think mine is sweeter, but yours is more waxy, fresh and more realistic. Both a good roses IMO, just different. It confuses me because I would have thought the amount of PEA in your formula would have made it sweeter than mine, which I did not sense. I might leave it for a few days and see if it matures. When I smell heavily dosed PEA formulas, I don't really get sweet but a more 'plastic/rubber' smell, something similar to Cistus Oil. I don't know if anyone else gets that impression?

Yeah I don't think any combo of Geraniol:Citronellol: PEA will be sweet, because none of those materials are sweet :p
But having a really PEA heavy rose can allow you to give a "rose" effect to an overall perfume composition without adding too much Geraniol & citronellol. You could simply just use pure PEA for a rose note in a perfume if you really want, avoiding any citrus qualities. Vice Versa, you can make a rose accord for example with only citronellol and geranyl acetate, in say, a citrus fragrance. Rose is quite versatile, so having a PEA heavy rose, can allow you to add rose to the blend, without going to sharp.

Try something like this, in PPT, intended to go into a formula that will add to 1000

ROSE
30 Citronellol
15 Geraniol
8 Nerol
100 PEA
5 Linalool
8 Rose Crystals
10 Lyral
1.5 Beta Damascone



Paired with
Jasmine
80 Hedione
12 Benzyl Acetate
8 Hydroxycitronellal
10 Linalool
20 Alpha Hexyl Cinnamldehyde

Orris
30 Iralia

Raspberry
2.5 Raspberry Ketone

Spice
2 Eugenol

Woods
6 Guaiac Wood 50%


You can fill this out with some sweet base notes like benzoin, and vanillin, ethyl maltol. Lots of musk, and a woody accord.
 
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mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
Yeah I don't think any combo of Geraniol:Citronellol: PEA will be sweet, because none of those materials are sweet :p
But having a really PEA heavy rose can allow you to give a "rose" effect to an overall perfume composition without adding too much Geraniol & citronellol. You could simply just use pure PEA for a rose note in a perfume if you really want, avoiding any citrus qualities. Vice Versa, you can make a rose accord for example with only citronellol and geranyl acetate, in say, a citrus fragrance. Rose is quite versatile, so having a PEA heavy rose, can allow you to add rose to the blend, without going to sharp.

Try something like this, in PPT, intended to go into a formula that will add to 1000

ROSE
30 Citronellol
15 Geraniol
8 Nerol
100 PEA
5 Linalool
8 Rose Crystals
10 Lyral
1.5 Beta Damascone



Paired with
Jasmine
80 Hedione
12 Benzyl Acetate
8 Hydroxycitronellol
10 Linalool
20 Alpha Hexyl Cinnamldehyde

Orris
30 Iralia

Raspberry
2.5 Raspberry Ketone

Spice
2 Eugenol

Woods
6 Guaiac Wood 50%


You can fill this out with some sweet base notes like benzoin, and vanillin, ethyl maltol. Lots of musk, and a woody accord.

That's supposed to be "hydroxycitronellol" or "hydroxycitronellal"?
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
I could be wrong but that sounds like it might be an outdated formula. These days lyral or some other muguet AC would probably be used in its place.

In my experience blending with hydroxycitronellal (mostly the Firmenich cyclosia version), lyral, lilial, florol, lilytol, and lilyflore, these materials are not at all interchangeable. With regard to cyclosia specifically, my experience is that it confers a very powerful but transparent diffusive effect that none of the others do. This is not to say that you are wrong, and I do don't doubt that hydroxycitronellal isn't very widely used today, but at least in my hands, it has a non-interchangeable role. The marketing materials of aromachem manufacturers, including histories of muguet materials, obviously have a very strong incentive to paint a linear March of progress with their latest new material supplanting all the rest. I'm pretty sure this is in large part puffery, and depending on the purpose, even old stuff may be optimal.
 

Contrapunctus

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2021
(...) The marketing materials of aromachem manufacturers, including histories of muguet materials, obviously have a very strong incentive to paint a linear March of progress with their latest new material supplanting all the rest. I'm pretty sure this is in large part puffery, and depending on the purpose, even old stuff may be optimal.
Totally agreed! In my opinion & limited experience, Hydroxycitronellal is one of the very few muguet molecules without aldehydic-anisic-ozonic-plastic notes. And I also don't think that H. is outdated. Looking at recent INCI lists of commercial/mainstream perfumes, there's still H. and Farnesol (another old-fashioned one).
 

Michael Andrews

Well-known member
May 23, 2020
Hydroxycitronellal & Lyral mixed for me is good; more Hydroxy will go more natural/waxy, and more Lyral will go fresh/synthetic, Farnesol I like using in accords, and then theres a role for the more watermelon / cyclamen style notes found in others
 
I'm terrible with the complexity of rose. I'm on my 43rd trial and still don't like the accord I'm trying to create. I'm looking to replicate an overly sweet Rose accord.

After multiple experiments, here is what I've come up with, but it is still way off, in my opinion, from what I want.

Ingredients%
Geraniol 95150
Citronellol90
PEA300
Damascone Beta60
Damascone Delta30
Dorina SA E100
Peonile50
Coronal100
Iso Eugenol50
Dihydro Ionone Beta50
Guaicwood20
1000

Some thinking:
- I used Coranol instead of linalool.
- I like the vanilla ting to Iso Eugenol over Eugenol. I thought it'd be a bit sweeter.
- I thought about using a Rose base to help. Considered Rose Givco 217, but settled on Dorina because it's a little more powerful.
- I have some real Bulgarian Rose, but to me that's too honeyed. I'm wanting sweet, like an old rose.
- I was unsure of which ionone to use. I've seen Alpha and Beta used in other rose accords, but went with dihydro beta because it has a little more light dryness to it. Not sure if that was a good call.

Problems that persist:
- I want it to smell sweet and soft, but it still smells too harsh and acidic. I think the alcohol from the PEA could be too much?
- It's missing a third dimension. Missing depth. It still feels 'skeletal' and unfinished. Lacks smoothness.

Any thoughts to improve would be very helpful.
Phenethyl Benzoate is a beautiful, soft rose that has a drier, old-rose aspect to it. It's gentle and almost nostalgic.
 

Greenslug

Well-known member
Feb 27, 2021
I
Playing around the Jean Carles way yesterday, I ended up with something simple like this below.

Geraniol 95447
Citronellol (Natural)281
PEA272
1000

Your formula above for PEA heavy rose is flipped to mine, with way more PEA and double the Citronellol to Geraniol.

I made both this morning and compared the two.

I actually think mine is sweeter, but yours is more waxy, fresh and more realistic. Both a good roses IMO, just different. It confuses me because I would have thought the amount of PEA in your formula would have made it sweeter than mine, which I did not sense. I might leave it for a few days and see if it matures. When I smell heavily dosed PEA formulas, I don't really get sweet but a more 'plastic/rubber' smell, something similar to Cistus Oil. I don't know if anyone else gets that impression?
I just made this same ratio, with the same materials, i am assuming. (Mine are from perfumers apprentice) To me it smells like a very soft delicate well balanced rose. So I also have a tester strip of real rose otto white diluted to 20% next to it. Now i know that it’s probably impossible to mimic the smell of a real rose oil especially for a noob and you need other ingredients to add to it but i cannot figure out where this kind of dried fruit jam note is coming from in the real rose oil. Its as if the rose was a fruit and it was dried. Its smells edible almost.
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
I

I just made this same ratio, with the same materials, i am assuming. (Mine are from perfumers apprentice) To me it smells like a very soft delicate well balanced rose. So I also have a tester strip of real rose otto white diluted to 20% next to it. Now i know that it’s probably impossible to mimic the smell of a real rose oil especially for a noob and you need other ingredients to add to it but i cannot figure out where this kind of dried fruit jam note is coming from in the real rose oil. Its as if the rose was a fruit and it was dried. Its smells edible almost.

Damasc(en)ones!
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
But they are so restricted, i am really trying to challenge myself and not use them. I definitely see some traces of Eugenol or dihydro eugenol in there but the fruit note is so strong.

The fact that they are restricted & you don't want to use them doesn't change the fact that they are what makes roses smell like that. I have no idea about whatever restrictions, but these are very very powerful materials & only necessary in very very small amounts.
 

Greenslug

Well-known member
Feb 27, 2021
The fact that they are restricted & you don't want to use them doesn't change the fact that they are what makes roses smell like that. I have no idea about whatever restrictions, but these are very very powerful materials & only necessary in very very small amounts.
I currently only have damascenone (firmenich) to play with. There are so many other ones. Are they all very different from each other would you say? Or minor differences?
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
I currently only have damascenone (firmenich) to play with. There are so many other ones. Are they all very different from each other would you say? Or minor differences?

This isn't gonna help much, but they smell related to one another, but also different. If you have damascenone, go ahead & add some to the accord you've made!
 

Greenslug

Well-known member
Feb 27, 2021
So
This isn't gonna help much, but they smell related to one another, but also different. If you have damascenone, go ahead & add some to the accord you've made!
i just added damascenone to that formula at about 1% it definitely added more realistic rose smell but not so much the dried fruit aspect.
 

Greenslug

Well-known member
Feb 27, 2021
Beta- & delta-damascones have that dried fruit facet.
Yeah i was just reading that in the descriptions. The white otto samples almost has a slight tobacco aspect to it which is whats in Delta. Also in the COA sheet there is 10% nerol. I am going to try adding a little bit at a time. I maybe wrong but I think there is some gourmand notes that may work also. But can’t figure out which ones i want to try. Possibly Beeswax abs
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
Yeah i was just reading that in the descriptions. The white otto samples almost has a slight tobacco aspect to it which is whats in Delta. Also in the COA sheet there is 10% nerol. I am going to try adding a little bit at a time. I maybe wrong but I think there is some gourmand notes that may work also. But can’t figure out which ones i want to try. Possibly Beeswax abs

I think phenylacetates play a role in the honeylike facet.
 

Greenslug

Well-known member
Feb 27, 2021
I think phenylacetates play a role in the honeylike facet.
I think i must have overdosed those and are now scared because on the tester strips and in some of the rose accords I made it starts moving in the plastic sour direction rather than honey. I always see it in rose accords but not yet understand the connection.
 

Casper_grassy

Well-known member
May 5, 2020
I think i must have overdosed those and are now scared because on the tester strips and in some of the rose accords I made it starts moving in the plastic sour direction rather than honey. I always see it in rose accords but not yet understand the connection.
Whether you did or not, try to use them and them in minute doses til they're barely perceptible and see how you like it.
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
Whether you did or not, try to use them and them in minute doses til they're barely perceptible and see how you like it.

Phenylacetates are, indeed, much much more powerful in blends than one would think just sniffing them on smelling strips. Yet ANOTHER example of how useless is Theoretical Perfumery & how the ONLY way to move forward in perfumery is by MAKING & TESTING GAZILLIONS OF BLENDS.
 

Casper_grassy

Well-known member
May 5, 2020
Phenylacetates are, indeed, much much more powerful in blends than one would think just sniffing them on smelling strips. Yet ANOTHER example of how useless is Theoretical Perfumery & how the ONLY way to move forward in perfumery is by MAKING & TESTING GAZILLIONS OF BLENDS.
Absolutely!
And on the gazillionth blend, you’ll realize you might have to do one more
 

Logocracy

Well-known member
Jan 11, 2021
Delta Damascone is drier than Beta Damascone, which is fruitier. A combination of both could work.
I remember someone also mentioning Azabre or Okmonal for a dried fruit aspect. I haven't tried it but that may also help.
Also thanks for trying out my accord. After leaving it for about a week, I found it to be quite pleasant, but still missing the (artificial?) sweetness I was seeking.
 

Greenslug

Well-known member
Feb 27, 2021
Delta Damascone is drier than Beta Damascone, which is fruitier. A combination of both could work.
I remember someone also mentioning Azabre or Okmonal for a dried fruit aspect. I haven't tried it but that may also help.
Also thanks for trying out my accord. After leaving it for about a week, I found it to be quite pleasant, but still missing the (artificial?) sweetness I was seeking.
I added a few other things a bit of phenethyl acetate, also a touch of ethyl maltol, immortelle abs, beeswax abs, and raspberry ketone all at around .5 to 2% curious to see after a few days.
 

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