Sweet Rose accord help

Logocracy

Super Member
Jan 11, 2021
I'm terrible with the complexity of rose. I'm on my 43rd trial and still don't like the accord I'm trying to create. I'm looking to replicate an overly sweet Rose accord.

After multiple experiments, here is what I've come up with, but it is still way off, in my opinion, from what I want.

Ingredients%
Geraniol 95150
Citronellol90
PEA300
Damascone Beta60
Damascone Delta30
Dorina SA E100
Peonile50
Coronal100
Iso Eugenol50
Dihydro Ionone Beta50
Guaicwood20
1000

Some thinking:
- I used Coranol instead of linalool.
- I like the vanilla ting to Iso Eugenol over Eugenol. I thought it'd be a bit sweeter.
- I thought about using a Rose base to help. Considered Rose Givco 217, but settled on Dorina because it's a little more powerful.
- I have some real Bulgarian Rose, but to me that's too honeyed. I'm wanting sweet, like an old rose.
- I was unsure of which ionone to use. I've seen Alpha and Beta used in other rose accords, but went with dihydro beta because it has a little more light dryness to it. Not sure if that was a good call.

Problems that persist:
- I want it to smell sweet and soft, but it still smells too harsh and acidic. I think the alcohol from the PEA could be too much?
- It's missing a third dimension. Missing depth. It still feels 'skeletal' and unfinished. Lacks smoothness.

Any thoughts to improve would be very helpful.
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
From a substantive standpoint, seems like you've got way too high doses of stuff other than the core rose accord components: geraniol, citronellol, PEA. As just one example, seems like enormously too much damascones. As far as substituting coranol for linalool, adding peonile, why? For your ionone, DIB is a very dry woody ionone, and typical rose accords use the more floral fruity ionones. Seems like a lot of guaiac, which can be very dry.

From a process standpoint, I suggest first stripping down to just geraniol, citronellol, PEA, and getting the balance between those three core components where you like it. Then add only damascone(s), starting with just beta, and a LOT less & study its effects, get it where you like it. Only then start studying the effects of the other materials, leaving out the Dorinia complete rose accord completely until you understand the workings of your own rose accord. The presence of a shitton of Dorinia (itself a complex complete accord) in your trials is probably making it impossible to figure out what is going on.

Other specific thoughts on your materials: (1) In addition to being subtly different scent than eugenol, isoeugenol is substantially more tenacious on skin. (2) Coranol is a substantially more tenacious than linalool on skin, and is much more complex scent profile. Stick with linalool until you understand what's going on & only then try subbing in coranol. (3) Peonile is mega-tenacious on skin AND much more powerful in blends than its own scent in isolation might suggest. Why is it even there & in such a high dose? (4) Guaiac is a very complex material & different sources can differ a lot, but it is also very powerful beyond what one might think just smelling it on its own AND too much can have a dry sharp harsh effect.
 

pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
I think your damascones are way too high.
Start by cutting them down by 2/3, at least. They can make rose screechy at this level. And maybe try increasing PEA by 5%. Start with that first...
Sweetness can come from more PEA. Also helpful is diluted beeswax absolute in tiny amount.
 

Logocracy

Super Member
Jan 11, 2021
From a substantive standpoint, seems like you've got way too high doses of stuff other than the core rose accord components: geraniol, citronellol, PEA. As just one example, seems like enormously too much damascones. As far as substituting coranol for linalool, adding peonile, why? For your ionone, DIB is a very dry woody ionone, and typical rose accords use the more floral fruity ionones. Seems like a lot of guaiac, which can be very dry.

From a process standpoint, I suggest first stripping down to just geraniol, citronellol, PEA, and getting the balance between those three core components where you like it. Then add only damascone(s), starting with just beta, and a LOT less & study its effects, get it where you like it. Only then start studying the effects of the other materials, leaving out the Dorinia complete rose accord completely until you understand the workings of your own rose accord. The presence of a shitton of Dorinia (itself a complex complete accord) in your trials is probably making it impossible to figure out what is going on.

Other specific thoughts on your materials: (1) In addition to being subtly different scent than eugenol, isoeugenol is substantially more tenacious on skin. (2) Coranol is a substantially more tenacious than linalool on skin, and is much more complex scent profile. Stick with linalool until you understand what's going on & only then try subbing in coranol. (3) Peonile is mega-tenacious on skin AND much more powerful in blends than its own scent in isolation might suggest. Why is it even there & in such a high dose? (4) Guaiac is a very complex material & different sources can differ a lot, but it is also very powerful beyond what one might think just smelling it on its own AND too much can have a dry sharp harsh effect.
This is the advice I needed! Thank you!

I think this is one of those 'wipe the board clean and start again' projects.
I had originally started with the PEA, Citronellol and Geraniol, but felt the balance needed to be complemented with other materials. Perhaps got to excited to add more things. I'll spend a day just on these three and find the balance I like.

Great point on the Dorina. I felt putting a finished accord in there would add the dimension I needed to make the accord feel complete, but you are right, it is probably complicating matters.

The peonile was there for volume and tenacity, which I think you confirmed can have that effect on skin. I had also seen in Perfumers Apprentice 'Rose Accord' that peonile was quite prevalent and I used it to give a 'sweet' boost at the top. It may not be the right material for the job.

Just to back up some of my thinking, before starting I had pulled out all the materials I have to make a basic rose accord and tried to categorise them by scent profile according to my experience and some descriptions I have researched. Photo may not be super clear, but enclosed is where my thinking was at. I had Peonile as 'sweet' along with Geraniol.

It's replies like yours which make me so grateful for this forum.
 

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Logocracy

Super Member
Jan 11, 2021
I think your damascones are way too high.
Start by cutting them down by 2/3, at least. They can make rose screechy at this level. And maybe try increasing PEA by 5%. Start with that first...
Sweetness can come from more PEA. Also helpful is diluted beeswax absolute in tiny amount.
That would explain why it seems so scratchy. I always thought Damascone Beta was the 'sweet' element in a rose accord, but I can sense that less is more here. Awesome advice, thank you.
 

Logocracy

Super Member
Jan 11, 2021
Depth and complexity comes from more molecules. Try layering both eugenol and isoeugenol. Also, geranyl acetate to compliment the alcohol. (Geraniol) etc...
I had the geranyl Acetate in the accord initially, but prefered the way Geraniol 95 worked better. I'll look at layering these.
 
D

Deleted member 26328009

Guest
Although I'm far away from being an expert in blending, rose is a bit of an exception for me and in this case I've indeed collected some own experience/observations. I'm a bit puzzled about that you aim for a decidedly sweet rose accord, but you don't think that honeyed notes (like your Bulgarian rose otto for example) could be useful. For me, honey is sweet - and could therefore be useful for sweet accords. However, saying this, I'd recommend some typical sweet rose materials, which mostly are part of either natural rose otto or absolute, like
Phenylethyl acetate - sweeter and a bit longer-lasting than PEA, for me quite essential
Nerol - next to Citronellol and Geraniol the 3rd important alcohol in rose
Neryl acetate - fruity-rosy, probably more useful than linalool/coranol in sweet rose
Geranyl acetate - dto.
Farnesol - for me an important base material for rose, natural rose otto contains up to 1.5-2% of it
PADMA (Phenylacetaldehyde dimethylacetal) - if used carefully, useful for ceating some natural flowery freshnes in the top; quite diffusive; I'm not sure, but to my nose, Dorinia has quite a bit of it

Looking at some headspace analysis of living rose flowers, by far the most important molecule (>60%) is PEA, followed by an array of acetates and finally alcohols.
 

Logocracy

Super Member
Jan 11, 2021
Although I'm far away from being an expert in blending, rose is a bit of an exception for me and in this case I've indeed collected some own experience/observations. I'm a bit puzzled about that you aim for a decidedly sweet rose accord, but you don't think that honeyed notes (like your Bulgarian rose otto for example) could be useful. For me, honey is sweet - and could therefore be useful for sweet accords. However, saying this, I'd recommend some typical sweet rose materials, which mostly are part of either natural rose otto or absolute, like
Phenylethyl acetate - sweeter and a bit longer-lasting than PEA, for me quite essential
Nerol - next to Citronellol and Geraniol the 3rd important alcohol in rose
Neryl acetate - fruity-rosy, probably more useful than linalool/coranol in sweet rose
Geranyl acetate - dto.
Farnesol - for me an important base material for rose, natural rose otto contains up to 1.5-2% of it
PADMA (Phenylacetaldehyde dimethylacetal) - if used carefully, useful for ceating some natural flowery freshnes in the top; quite diffusive; I'm not sure, but to my nose, Dorinia has quite a bit of it

Looking at some headspace analysis of living rose flowers, by far the most important molecule (>60%) is PEA, followed by an array of acetates and finally alcohols.
I have most of these materials and will explore more with them around your advice.

I see your point on Honey being sweet. My Bulgarian Rose smells like honey! But I think the sweetness I'm looking for is a little more of a fantasy, jammy, dark red, dying rose. Something similar to Byredo's 'Reine De Nuit' or Diptique's 'Eau Capitale'. I feel it's more Turkish rose than Bulgarian Rose. My plan is to use this accord in an incense and patchouli based perfume. So I wanted it to feel thick and 'liquid' sweet, if that makes sense?
 
D

Deleted member 26328009

Guest
I don't know these perfumes, but if you're looking after something dark-red and fruity-jammy, you might probably take in account some raspberry ketone. (Sparingly and careful dosage, it's powerful and can take over in the base.)
 

Casper_grassy

Basenotes Dependent
May 5, 2020
Maybe you should look into purchasing (If you can find) the main rose constituents’ butyrate and propionate counterparts, phenyl, geranyl, neryl, rhodinyl etc. They are much sweeter and fruitier and can lend to the jammy side.
Perfumersworld does carry a lot of them, and the quality isn’t horrendous as most expect.
The acetate variety are typically a hair sweeter.
You should also, as said above, either raise your pea, double it IMO, or try to put an equal amount of phenyl propyl alcohol, it is more honeyed than PEA, but can build an overall sweetness to the backbone.
Phenyl acetaldehyde would be good too.

I think the iso eugenol, guaiacwood and DIB are going more woody spicy rather than what you want.

Personally I would do as said about just using pea, geraniol and citronellol, but i’d add eugenol in that because it is very integral to rose.

Last thing, maybe look into buying a lot more rose materials, there’s a ton
 

pavomi

Super Member
Sep 3, 2016
great recommendations so far! i'd add cinnamic alcohol, Appel Rose 30 list's 12,5% of it, a poucher rose formula uses 5%.
i had very good results replacing guaiacwood with guaiyl acetate (from PSH). its way more floral. also, use ionone alpha instead of dihydro ionone beta. as mentioned above, beeswax is fantastic, you could also use phenyl acetic acid. methyl phenyl acetate is a good choice too for a sweet jammy rose. try adding rose crystals and phenyl hexanol for a long lasting basenote. maybe rose oxide for a top note.
and, the advice of our master David Ruskin, using a tiny touch of Chamomille EO, works wonders.

but in general, i second mnitabach's advice to start with the 3-part skeleton, and add every additional material separately to be sure about its effect in the blend.
 

Greenslug

Super Member
Feb 27, 2021
I'm terrible with the complexity of rose. I'm on my 43rd trial and still don't like the accord I'm trying to create. I'm looking to replicate an overly sweet Rose accord.

After multiple experiments, here is what I've come up with, but it is still way off, in my opinion, from what I want.

Ingredients%
Geraniol 95150
Citronellol90
PEA300
Damascone Beta60
Damascone Delta30
Dorina SA E100
Peonile50
Coronal100
Iso Eugenol50
Dihydro Ionone Beta50
Guaicwood20
1000

Some thinking:
- I used Coranol instead of linalool.
- I like the vanilla ting to Iso Eugenol over Eugenol. I thought it'd be a bit sweeter.
- I thought about using a Rose base to help. Considered Rose Givco 217, but settled on Dorina because it's a little more powerful.
- I have some real Bulgarian Rose, but to me that's too honeyed. I'm wanting sweet, like an old rose.
- I was unsure of which ionone to use. I've seen Alpha and Beta used in other rose accords, but went with dihydro beta because it has a little more light dryness to it. Not sure if that was a good call.

Problems that persist:
- I want it to smell sweet and soft, but it still smells too harsh and acidic. I think the alcohol from the PEA could be too much?
- It's missing a third dimension. Missing depth. It still feels 'skeletal' and unfinished. Lacks smoothness.

Any thoughts to improve would be very helpful.
 

Greenslug

Super Member
Feb 27, 2021
I feel the same in a-lot if ways. I had some success with adding Pk perfumes Lychee base just a little bit. My last batch came in just a bit too sweet but it was headed in the right direction in my opinion.
 

pavomi

Super Member
Sep 3, 2016
I feel the same in a-lot if ways. I had some success with adding Pk perfumes Lychee base just a little bit. My last batch came in just a bit too sweet but it was headed in the right direction in my opinion.
the lychee base utilises most likely quite a lot of dimethyl sulphide. DMS is in general a great addition for rose accords.
 

parker25mv

Basenotes Dependent
Oct 12, 2016
After multiple experiments, here is what I've come up with, but it is still way off, in my opinion, from what I want.
I think you will have to get a lot more detailed about how you perceive it to be off, for us to help you.
There are actually a huge number of different variations on rose.
Most of us are not going to remake your formula to smell it for ourselves to be able to give you advice. That's usually not very realistic to expect.
There are many different ways to make rose "sweeter" and not all in the same way. Check the odor listing for "honey" on good scents, things like butyl phenyl acetate, methyl phenyl acetate (these don't really smell too close to honey but will add the type of sweetness you want here). Or are you looking for a spicy sweet, like cloves, "myrrh"/anise? a hint of vanillin may even be able to help.

If you want dark smooth and oily/waxy, you can substitute out some phenoxanol for some of the citronellol.
(but note that coranol has some overlap in effect with phenoxanol, so that is something to consider)

I totally agree with Casper_grassy's suggestion about substituting some of the geraniol out with geranyl propionate/butyrate/or acetate. Maybe 30-50%. Acetate is usually the best and most simple but the other two can probably add a touch of fruitiness.

PEA of course adds "rose sweetness", but it is kind of a sharp sweetness with characteristic "punch" and can sometimes start making the rose feel too much like wilty rose if you go overboard.

Are you looking for more of an edible sweetness, or an almost totally non-edible floral sweetness?
 

parker25mv

Basenotes Dependent
Oct 12, 2016
Probably totally off topic to your question, but if you wanted a touch of "sandalwood" effect in your formula, Mysore acetate would probably work great in this situation. It is very smooth (some might say almost "creamy" even), and even has a little bit of ionone-like effect.
 

parker25mv

Basenotes Dependent
Oct 12, 2016
But I think the sweetness I'm looking for is a little more of a fantasy, jammy, dark red, dying rose.
This type of comment ("dying rose") leads me to think of increasing the PEA, or adding a little azarbre (smells sort of like dried chrysanthemum, dried leaves, honey, but has a greater radiance and olfactory effect than actual smell).

(one more to possibly mention here, Floramat, has a dried dessicated rose effect, slightly woody and spicy)

"Dark red" would be geraniol, geranyl acetate, but you might want to smell geranyl formate too. Phenoxanol can be great for a darker effect (though not "red") and can really give an impression like high quality rose enfleurage.

Beta-damascone is usually great for "jammy" in rose, but if you really wanted to emphasize that effect, some raspberry ketone and a little isoeugenol.
 
May 23, 2020
Roses aren't sweet; try adding Nerol and Citral as citrus modifiers as they are "sweet". But, if you want a "sweet" rose, blend a PEA heavy rose (Citronellol: Geraniol : PEA; 2:1:6) and pair it with any of the following: Raspberry Ketone, Ethyl maltol, vanillin, coumarin, a sweet Jasmine accord containing HCA and Benzyl acetate, anything else that's sweet and pairs with rose
 

parker25mv

Basenotes Dependent
Oct 12, 2016
I have some real Bulgarian Rose, but to me that's too honeyed. I'm wanting sweet, like an old rose.

Problems that persist:
- I want it to smell sweet and soft, but it still smells too harsh and acidic. I think the alcohol from the PEA could be too much?
Hmm, you may want to try dimethyl sulfide then. It's very tricky to work with for amateurs though.
In some ways its sweetness is similar to the type of sweetness of PEA but is pungent rather than sharp, harsh, or "acidic".

This forum has a whole thread about how to work with it here: Dimethyl Sulfide

I don't know exactly what you mean by "acidic". If you mean sort of lemony acidic, it might be the citronellol. Or you should use more acetate versions of things. (For example, maybe linalyl acetate instead of linalool, so you wouldn't have had to use as much coranol)
 

parker25mv

Basenotes Dependent
Oct 12, 2016
Roses aren't sweet; try adding Nerol and Citral as citrus modifiers as they are "sweet".
Citral would be sort of like lemon drop candies. Not very sweet but it does have a little more sweetness than what people normally think of when the word "lemon" comes to mind. (strangely it does seem to have some effect even a little reminiscent if linalool)

Ethyl maltol
Ethyl maltol is like cotton candy. A very small amount can be used to great effect to add sweetness, it is used in a huge number of different fragrances.
Some might say it is a very explicit obvious type of sweetness, almost "sugar".
 

parker25mv

Basenotes Dependent
Oct 12, 2016
This is a good tip. I think the Azabre might be a good addition help.
Okay, but I wouldn't use it just by itself. I think it might be a piece of what you are looking for, but I wouldn't rely on it for all of the sweetness here.
Like I stated before, it almost has more of a diffusive olfactory effect than actual smell.

I think you did say that you did not want all the sweetness to be in a honey sort of way.

One more thing to bring up, are you sure you want to use peonile? That can be tricky stuff, can often ruin a blend, even though many amateur perfumers want it work.

If you wanted to go in a fruity fresh sour green juicy direction, you could try substituting some of it with a little Doremox here. Just another alternative, because I suspect you might be unconsciously using peonile in this formula to substitute for the place that rose oxide normally fills (fresh, slightly metallic).
Cortex aldehyde is also one more to mention if you're looking for green stems and freshness.

Do you like peonile because of the grapefruit nuances in rose it contributes?
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
Agreed about peonile. As I stated much earlier in the thread, peonile is vastly more powerful than one might think & enormously tenacious. IME it is extremely difficult to use as a supporting material: the "therapeutic window" is extremely narrow.
 

Jolieo

Basenotes Dependent
Feb 18, 2018
So how is peonile used? As a star of the show?
i got a 4ml from pa because of their blurb about using it with javanol ( another extremely powerful ac) but I forgot and never did it- and it just keeps cropping up-
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
So how is peonile used? As a star of the show?
i got a 4ml from pa because of their blurb about using it with javanol ( another extremely powerful ac) but I forgot and never did it- and it just keeps cropping up-

IME using peonile in a supporting role requires testing extremely fine gradations of dose AND testing on skin & waiting for at least twelve hours to see what it's doing to your long extended drydown. It will persist with stuff like ethylene brassylate, evernyl, karanal, ambroxide, etc. I personally really like peonile itself, tho, and enjoy it as the star of the show. The amount of peonile in the OP's rose accord seems to me likely to be beyond absurd.
 

Greenslug

Super Member
Feb 27, 2021
IME using peonile in a supporting role requires testing extremely fine gradations of dose AND testing on skin & waiting for at least twelve hours to see what it's doing to your long extended drydown. It will persist with stuff like ethylene brassylate, evernyl, karanal, ambroxide, etc. I personally really like peonile itself, tho, and enjoy it as the star of the show. The amount of peonile in the OP's rose accord seems to me likely to be beyond
In perfumers apprentice rose accord formula which was included in the start up kit it was like one of the main ingredients.
 

Logocracy

Super Member
Jan 11, 2021
blend a PEA heavy rose (Citronellol: Geraniol : PEA; 2:1:6)

Playing around the Jean Carles way yesterday, I ended up with something simple like this below.

Geraniol 95447
Citronellol (Natural)281
PEA272
1000

Your formula above for PEA heavy rose is flipped to mine, with way more PEA and double the Citronellol to Geraniol.

I made both this morning and compared the two.

I actually think mine is sweeter, but yours is more waxy, fresh and more realistic. Both a good roses IMO, just different. It confuses me because I would have thought the amount of PEA in your formula would have made it sweeter than mine, which I did not sense. I might leave it for a few days and see if it matures. When I smell heavily dosed PEA formulas, I don't really get sweet but a more 'plastic/rubber' smell, something similar to Cistus Oil. I don't know if anyone else gets that impression?
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
Playing around the Jean Carles way yesterday, I ended up with something simple like this below.

Geraniol 95447
Citronellol (Natural)281
PEA272
1000

Your formula above for PEA heavy rose is flipped to mine, with way more PEA and double the Citronellol to Geraniol.

I made both this morning and compared the two.

I actually think mine is sweeter, but yours is more waxy, fresh and more realistic. Both a good roses IMO, just different. It confuses me because I would have thought the amount of PEA in your formula would have made it sweeter than mine, which I did not sense. I might leave it for a few days and see if it matures. When I smell heavily dosed PEA formulas, I don't really get sweet but a more 'plastic/rubber' smell, something similar to Cistus Oil. I don't know if anyone else gets that impression?

Note that there can be major differences in side- or off-notes of different PEA materials. For example, I have directly compared what Pell Wall sells as chemical synthetic PEA vs their biotechnology "natural" PEA & they are dramatically different. The latter is smooth radiant silky compared to the chemically somewhat harsh tone of the former. Now that I've worked with the latter, it's all I'll use. Of course, it is dramatically more expensive than chemical synthetic... 😹 😹 😹
 

Jolieo

Basenotes Dependent
Feb 18, 2018
Thank you Mike about peonile-that is helpful
Btw -is pellwell the place selling the pea made with biotech?
 

Greenslug

Super Member
Feb 27, 2021
Note that there can be major differences in side- or off-notes of different PEA materials. For example, I have directly compared what Pell Wall sells as chemical synthetic PEA vs their biotechnology "natural" PEA & they are dramatically different. The latter is smooth radiant silky compared to the chemically somewhat harsh tone of the former. Now that I've worked with the latter, it's all I'll use. Of course, it is dramatically more expensive than chemical synthetic... 😹 😹 😹
Is it worth it in your opinion to wait on getting the natural versions of these synthetics when starting out? I have Citronellol natural coming on my next order just to see the difference because sometimes i am a bit hesitant of using large amounts of the regular citronellol since it smells a bit rubbery imo
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
Is it worth it in your opinion to wait on getting the natural versions of these synthetics when starting out? I have Citronellol natural coming on my next order just to see the difference because sometimes i am a bit hesitant of using large amounts of the regular citronellol since it smells a bit rubbery imo

Allz I can say is I've observed a major difference in smoothness & elegance in blends using natural PEA, geraniol, geranyl acetate, benzyl acetate, citronellol, benzyl salicylate compared to the synthetics that I possess. This isn't to say that beautiful more-refined synthetics of these materials don't exist; I simply don't know. And to be clear, I'm not sure it matters a whole lot when you're at the "mud vs not mud" stage of learning perfumery.
 

Greenslug

Super Member
Feb 27, 2021
It’s pretty underwhelming, it does go nice for orris and pairs really well with velvetone.
Allz I can say is I've observed a major difference in smoothness & elegance in blends using natural PEA, geraniol, geranyl acetate, benzyl acetate, citronellol, benzyl salicylate compared to the synthetics that I possess. This isn't to say that beautiful more-refined synthetics of these materials don't exist; I simply don't know. And to be clear, I'm not sure it matters a whole lot when you're at the "mud vs not mud" stage of learning perfumery.
Good to know. Lol thank you
 
D

Deleted member 26328009

Guest
Regarding natural PEA: I have the natural version of PEA from PA and it's still available there. Although I don't have any synthetic PEA to compare with, I can say for sure that the natural PEA is to my nose quite a pleasant and lovely material resembling the typical scent profile of rose hydrosols.
 

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