Spicy Incense Casbah Robert Piguet style

maxsyxx73

New member
Jan 5, 2020
Hi guys,

I am new to Besenote as a forum contributor, although I have often used the many precious advices from both novices and experienced perfumers.

I am not sure I am posting in the right forum, so please forgive me if I am doing this wrong. It would be good, in case, if you could point me in the right direction.

I am working on a fizzy spicy incensy composition, my point of reference is Casbah by Robert Piguet.

I have 2 questions:

- does anyone knows a bit more about the composition in terms of material beyond the notes in Fragrantica (e.g. I cannot detect any tobacco and I only imagine the note is mentioned as Casbah has a smokey quality without being openly smokey)? Would you mind sharing, anything would help, anything.

- I have been working with aldehydes to create the fizzy/sparkly feeling underpinning Casbah. I used C6, C8, C12, with a clear overdose of C12 (for those interested the following ration C6 @ 0.01% 2 : C8 @ 0.01% 4 : C12 @1% 10). The fizz is there but when it drys down the smell become quite a orangy in particular when I use incense notes (fumincence, opoponax resinoid, myrrh abs) or spicy notes (black pepper CO2, nutmeg abs) making dry down feel almost medicinal. Has anyone any advice in terms of aldehydes or combination of aldehydes and incenses/ spices?

I am desperate. I have been working at this for months with no success.

If anyone is developing a similar concept (spycy-incensy-church) and you want to chat about materials please message me privately. Sometimes 2 noses work better than 1. I made many mistakes so may be helpful to someone, even if I am quite lost.

Thank you to everyone for any kind of suggestion!

M
 

parker25mv

Basenotes Dependent
Oct 12, 2016
I have never smelled the fragrance but I would guess there might be some caryophyllene and guaiacol in there. You could experiment with tobacarol as well.

Maybe you should use more frankincense than myrrh if it is smelling too medicinal?
 

ScentAle

Basenotes Junkie
Oct 26, 2021
You are right. I think that most important ingredient of church incense composition, is Guaiacol. Because Guaiacol + incenses= that church smokiness base feel, longlasting.
 

ScentAle

Basenotes Junkie
Oct 26, 2021
Ciao!!!
Qualche progresso?
Credo che la qualità dell'incenso sia molto importante
Si. Sicuramente. Of course very important to have good incense. I have created a full churchy incense that I'm satisfied with, but it is in a darker Avignon style.

About Casbah, in other past samples I tried to adding some green notes, like angelica, pine, Juniper, Borneol and other, and also tried to add orris that seems to be present in Casbah, for see the result. Not too much trials with this, result was not bad but not like I imaginated, or better say that actually I don't remember anymore very well how precisely was the green note in Casbah, I didn't smelled anymore. Very curious to try again to smell and compare that with my green note.

(I totally delete my old thought that guaiacol is foundamental for churchy. Not and not)
 

parker25mv

Basenotes Dependent
Oct 12, 2016
I do have an unsure suspicion that the fragrance might be using the captive Belambre (Givaudan). The perfumer used to work for Givaudan, but now works for IFF. This fragrance was commissioned under IFF. So perhaps this is unlikely.

"Robert Piguet Parfums has been prolific in its expansion. With three of the perfume world's most worshipped fragrances to its name, (Bandit, Fracas and Visa) perfumer Aurelien Guichard, now at IFF, has stood at the helm of most every new creation since Baghari in 2006... The most recent offerings are Oud Devin and Oud Delice, new versions to the 2012 Oud de Robert Piguet..."

Perhaps you should explore other ACs that are said to have an "incense"-like effect.

Another captive AC is Mystikal (Givaudan), which is said to contribute a frankincense-like exalting effect. It doesn't specifically smell like frankincense, smells more soapy, but gives the same sort of exalting effect (which some describe as "incense-like"). Unfortunately these captives will be unavailable to you. C-12 aldehyde MNA is probably the closest non-captive AC that comes anywhere close to it, although that is of course an aldehyde so you will then not want to use other aldehydes.
(another discussion which might be of interest to some: Making Mystikal )

I have not smelled this particular fragrance, but a warm spicy peppery wood is caryophyllene. That does seem to have somewhat of an incense effect to me, although more of a very distinct Southeast Asian sort of teak or lakawood. It's like the wood smell within black pepper.
 

parker25mv

Basenotes Dependent
Oct 12, 2016
Here is a description for Casbah:
"black pepper and nutmeg introduce the delicate green melody of angelica root. The effervescent opening then softens into a heart of iris embraced by tobacco leaves. Cedarwood provides a polished backdrop for the intricate, smoky floral accord"

The mention of "tobacco leaves" suggests to me that there may be some Tabanon and perhaps even ketoisophorone (4-oxoisophorone, brewed black tea and rich quality of smell) in it. It is possible that Tabanon could be mistaken for an "incense", since to me it smells reminiscent of a varnished expensive furniture wood and has a lot of depth. That could be shaping the character of the incense wood smell. I do not know.

The iris note could be contributing to adding an effervescence, perhaps.
and I think the angelica might be helping to shape the incense smell, with its earthiness and pepperiness.
 

ScentAle

Basenotes Junkie
Oct 26, 2021
Interesting! Belambre is an ambrox material?
For me foundamental notes in Casbah are clearly C12 (King of every strong incense), cashmeran, nutmeg, and that particular green accord that is very piney, but it is not only that. The real game is played around this beautiful green note with also angelica.
C12 Firmenich seems a bit more refined than other, less soapy and more smooth incense.
Black pepper, eo and better the fresher co2, is really important to make a great lift.
Maybe they used also some touch of other aldehydes like C9, for make more vivid the "pine" note, not sure.
 

ScentAle

Basenotes Junkie
Oct 26, 2021
Here is a description for Casbah:
"black pepper and nutmeg introduce the delicate green melody of angelica root. The effervescent opening then softens into a heart of iris embraced by tobacco leaves. Cedarwood provides a polished backdrop for the intricate, smoky floral accord"

The mention of "tobacco leaves" suggests to me that there may be some Tabanon and perhaps even ketoisophorone (4-oxoisophorone, brewed black tea and rich quality of smell) in it. It is possible that Tabanon could be mistaken for an "incense", since to me it smells reminiscent of a varnished expensive furniture wood and has a lot of depth. That could be shaping the character of the incense wood smell. I do not know.

The iris note could be contributing to adding an effervescence, perhaps.
and I think the angelica might be helping to shape the incense smell, with its earthiness and pepperiness.
Yes I think they worked a lot in that perfectly dosed green "melody", made maybe with borneol, angelica and other, and used orris root (I think same that in the start give a sort of effervescence, and then you can clearly smell the drydown softness thanks to this and the musks).

I don't know if they used some other green notes, but I always thought that there is hexyl benzoate, a green piney-balsamic note that I like, nice with angelica, not in the full fresh direction like borneol materials.
 

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