Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

[Yuri-G]

Hi

Just wanted some feedback on this idea for a fairly basic fougere. I haven't made it yet. It's just for me, so I'm not concerned with IFRA.

I've kept lavender geranium fairly low, as per my personal preference. Is leaving bergamot out too controversial?

What is a sensible amount of oakmoss? I'm talking purely from a scent point of view. Guidance online seems clouded by regulations. I'm using IFRA compliant oakmoss from Pell Wall, which reviewers say is less cloying than the non-compliant kind.

I know this is a lot of coumarin. Too much perhaps? And would you add more amyl salicylate?

Note Parts per 1000 % of Conc
Patchouli 61 _ 6.10%
Lavender 30 _ 3.05%
Clary Sage 30 _ 3.05%
Oakmoss 15 _ 1.52%
Habanolide 61 _ 6.10%
Coumarin 122 _ 12.20%
Vetiver 91 _ 9.15%
Lyral 91 _ 9.15%
Timbersilk 122 _ 12.20%
Dihydro Beta ionone 61 _ 6.10%
Pettitgrain 30 _ 3.05%
Geranium 30 _ 3.05%
Ethylene Brassylate 30 _ 3.05%
Sclareolate 91 _ 9.15%
Hedione 61 _ 6.10%
Ambroxan 9 _ 0.91%
Cedramber 30 _ 3.05%
Amyl Salycilate 30 _ 3.05%

Any advice gratefully received! Thanks.

 

[Bill Roberts]

Not at all controversial to leave out bergamot.

My idea of sensible Oak Moss is the John Steele at 80 parts per thousand, so I suppose no one should listen to me on Oak Moss.

Some geranyl acetate might help and it seems shy on lavender but you did say that's your preference. Do you have a good number of lavenders to choose from?

 

[pkiler]

uh, yeah, way too much coumarin, it will take over. you can cut down to 3% with ease.
The bergamot is there for diffusion, see if it is better with some...
Also, seems rather shy for the top end.

 

[mnitabach]

Depends obvs on your specific patchouli & geranium materials, but those are very large doses of what are arguably the two highest impact materials in your blend. In my experience exploring the fougère structure, closer to 1% for geranium eo & less than 1% for patchouli eo were plenty.

 

[Bill Roberts]

Gawrsh, I hope the 130 parts Geranium Terpeneless in something recent wasn't a disaster then!

(The Terpeneless is much "cleaner" though.)

 

[mnitabach]

Oh, and be careful with your amyl salicylate. Depending on dose & quality of your material, you can get a super screechy harsh facet that pops up as the stronger heart materials fade. Don't cheap out on crappy amyl salicylate is a lesson I learned the hard way.

ETA: Also, I think that is a lot of lyral. And this is coming from someone who loves lyral. In my fougère experiments, even just 1-2% lyral provided a very discernable muguet facet to the extended drydown. Looking at your formula, the longest lasting materials contributing to the extended drydown will be the lyral, musks, and ambroxan. But maybe that is what you are looking for!

 

[mnitabach]

Gawrsh, I hope the 130 parts Geranium Terpeneless in something recent wasn't a disaster then!

(The Terpeneless is much "cleaner" though.)

Interesting! The terpenes are the most volatile highest impact components, correct?

 

[Bill Roberts]

Which did you prefer and which not?

The three I see available retail in the US right now, if accompanying SDS's actually do match product, are the Givaudan, the Vigon Mixed Isomers, and the John D Walsh, manufacturer undisclosed. The Vigon indeed is cheap, dropping to as low as $8/kg in true bulk, but was it your culprit?

?

Thank you!

 

[mnitabach]

Which did you prefer and which not?

The three I see available retail in the US right now, if accompanying SDS's actually do match product, are the Givaudan, the Vigon Mixed Isomers, and the John D Walsh, manufacturer undisclosed. The Vigon indeed is cheap, dropping to as low as $8/kg in true bulk, but was it your culprit?

?

Thank you!

I think you are asking about amyl salicylate? I got one from PA that was more "screechy" like this, and one from PW that I liked. I don't know where they each source the material.

 

[mnitabach]

uh, yeah, way too much coumarin, it will take over. you can cut down to 3% with ease.
The bergamot is there for diffusion, see if it is better with some...
Also, seems rather shy for the top end.

In my experiments with the fougère structure a nice way to invigorate the top end is with a very low dose of methyl salicylate, just right at the threshold of individual discernability in the blend (like ~0.05%).

 

[Bill Roberts]

Interesting! The terpenes are the most volatile highest impact components, correct?

I would think so but the note or notes I'm glad are absent are I think not terpenes. Perhaps the product should be called fractionated geranium, but Terpeneless is what it's called.

The SDS gives an imprecise but useful analysis: https://perfumersupplyhouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/OIL-GERANIUM-TERPENELESS-EN.pdf

In contrast my most-preferred Geranium as the full oil is this: https://www.edenbotanicals.com/product_documents/COA/360_Geranium_Egypt_Organic_COA_15.pdf

The thing is, the eo doesn't have much percentage of terpenes at all.

It does have a whole host of things under 0.5% not seen in the Terpeneless even though that goes down to 0.1% and does not seem limited to mandatory-to-report items.

So I dunno. But, very different.

.

 

[Bill Roberts]

I think you are asking about amyl salicylate? I got one from PA that was more "screechy" like this, and one from PW that I liked. I don't know where they each source the material.

Thank you!

The PA purports to be the Givaudan. Whether it is or not is of course another matter entirely. That is what I have myself, and I have never liked it. It looks as if I need to try one or two others then.

 

[Yuri-G]

Thanks all. Ok, will take coumarin back down and add bergamot to boost the top. Need no further encouragement to reduce the geranium. I could add geranyl acetate, but I can't smell it, or it smells like PVA glue to me. I guess I'm anosmic to it.

I only have one type of lavender, but I have three patchoulis - standard eo, coeur and clearwood.

Ok, I will watch out for the amyl salicylate. It's on its way. I may have cheaped out. Hadn't occured to me that it might be different.

 

[Yuri-G]

I could add rosewood to the top. That might work.

 

[Bill Roberts]

It seems Linalool 50, meaning 5%, (or L-linalool 50) is quite commonly a good idea for a formula, and Rosewood does much the same.

 

[Bill Roberts]

Thanks all. Ok, will take coumarin back down and add bergamot to boost the top. Need no further encouragement to reduce the geranium. I could add geranyl acetate, but I can't smell it, or it smells like PVA glue to me. I guess I'm anosmic to it.

No reason to add then, too much guesswork, except maybe to make a version at the end if you have testers and can ask which formula they like better.

 

[mnitabach]

Sounds like time to make it! I have almost everything you include, so will give it a try as well.

 

[tobacco]

Some months ago I was happy to come up with this fougere type fragrance I would like to share with you. I have to say that I am still learning and training every day and I would not do it the same way now. Maybe I give it a rework at some point. And yes, it is heavy on the oakmoss which could possibly be reduced (a bit). Any critics is very welcome!


Bergamot EO bergapten free 15.7%
Hedione 15.1
Alpha Methyl Ionone 9.9
Kephalis 7.9
Neroli Commercial 5.8
Lavender Absolute (France) 5.4
Beta Caryophyllene 5.1
Iso E Super 4.2
Timbersilk 4.2
Oakmoss Abs. IFRA compliant 3.7
Ethylene Brassylate 3.7
Eugenol 3
Lavender 40/42 2.9
Rose 217 Givco 2.2
Hydroxicitronellal 1.7
Citronellol 1.7
Clearwood 1.5
Cedar Atlas EO 1.2
Jasmin Abs. Recr. 1.2
Coumarin 1.1
Vetiver Acetate 1.1
Mayol 1.1
Fixateur 505 E 0.6

 

[Yuri-G]

Sounds like time to make it! I have almost everything you include, so will give it a try as well.

Hopefully this weekend, if the amyl salicylate arrives.

Thanks for your help everyone. Here's the tweaked formula based on your advice.

Note Parts per 1000 % of Conc
Patchouli 33 3.32%
Lavender 33 3.32%
Clary Sage 33 3.32%
Oakmoss 17 1.66%
Habanolide 66 6.64%
Coumarin 33 3.32%
Vetiver 100 9.97%
Lyral 33 3.32%
Timbersilk 133 13.29%
Dihydro Beta ionone 66 6.64%
Pettitgrain 66 6.64%
Geranium 10 1.00%
Ethylene Brassylate 33 3.32%
Sclareolate 100 9.97%
Hedione 66 6.64%
Ambroxan 10 1.00%
Cedramber 33 3.32%
Amyl Salycilate 33 3.32%
Rosewood 33 3.32%
Bergamot 66 6.64%

 

[Yuri-G]

Some months ago I was happy to come up with this fougere type fragrance I would like to share with you. I have to say that I am still learning and training every day and I would not do it the same way now. Maybe I give it a rework at some point. And yes, it is heavy on the oakmoss which could possibly be reduced (a bit). Any critics is very welcome!


Bergamot EO bergapten free 15.7%
Hedione 15.1
Alpha Methyl Ionone 9.9
Kephalis 7.9
Neroli Commercial 5.8
Lavender Absolute (France) 5.4
Beta Caryophyllene 5.1
Iso E Super 4.2
Timbersilk 4.2
Oakmoss Abs. IFRA compliant 3.7
Ethylene Brassylate 3.7
Eugenol 3
Lavender 40/42 2.9
Rose 217 Givco 2.2
Hydroxicitronellal 1.7
Citronellol 1.7
Clearwood 1.5
Cedar Atlas EO 1.2
Jasmin Abs. Recr. 1.2
Coumarin 1.1
Vetiver Acetate 1.1
Mayol 1.1
Fixateur 505 E 0.6

Useful for comparison, thanks! You have a few more materials than I do. I'll leave it to the experts to assess!

I just googled lavender 40/42. How does that compare with a standard EO, which is what I'm using? It seems a bit harsh at the top, which is why I don't like using too much.

I tried a mini accord using habanolide and that worked well. I decided to add a warmer musk to compliment it and have opted for ethylene brassylate, as you have.

 

[Bill Roberts]

I don't consider it the smoothest or best but it is standardized and perhaps especially useful commercially for that reason.

I really don't think there's such a thing as a "standard" lavender, other than if calling 40/42 that. Lavenders vary a great deal, which is why I asked how many you had. It might be that with another lavender you'd enjoy having more of it.

 

[Yuri-G]

I don't consider it the smoothest or best but it is standardized and perhaps especially useful commercially for that reason.

I really don't think there's such a thing as a "standard" lavender, other than if calling 40/42 that. Lavenders vary a great deal, which is why I asked how many you had. It might be that with another lavender you'd enjoy having more of it.

I have lavindula augustifolium/officianalis eo. I should pick up some absolute at some point.

 

[tobacco]

Useful for comparison, thanks! You have a few more materials than I do. I'll leave it to the experts to assess!

I just googled lavender 40/42. How does that compare with a standard EO, which is what I'm using?

As Mr. Bill Roberts already said it is apparently (not that I would know from a professional point of view) used as a standard lavender in perfumery to give more consistent and constant or predictable results. I have read that the numbers relate to the ratio of linalool (40%) and linalyl acetate (42%), which would leave 18% of other non-standardized lavender constituents.

Personally I actually like the 40/42, e.g. compared to other purely natural/non-standardized lavender EOs. I think I currently have 5 different in my collection (France, Bulgaria,...) and they are really quite different. Some for the better, some for the worse.

 

[Yuri-G]

I have lavindula augustifolium/officianalis eo. I should pick up some absolute at some point.

Do you have any recommendations Bill?

 

[tobacco]

I have lavindula augustifolium/officianalis eo. I should pick up some absolute at some point.

Imho the absolute makes the real difference in the fougere. It is much more beautiful than the EO, but not so fresh of course. It is soft, floral, coumarinic lavender and has way more substantivity. A must have!

 

[mnitabach]

Lavender absolute is a wonderful material! It's super different from e.o. in ways mentioned above. In my experience, it's also very powerful, and can crush other heart notes if one isn't careful with dosing & what it is accompanying. Works gorgeously with geranium e.o.!

 

[Bill Roberts]

Do you have any recommendations Bill?

For a feminine I am particularly fond of Perfumer's Apprentice Lavender France Maillette (Vielle) and also their Lavender France Fleurs (Robertet), with their Fleurs being lighter and more coumarinic and their Maillette having a bit more depth. Top notch stuff to me.

Either absolutely can be used in a masculine as well without in any way going metro. It's just that it's going to be light and you're going to need your solid punch elsewhere. Which is of course very doable.

For a masculine I most prefer PSH Lavender Spanish Pure (Bontoux) and White Lotus Aromatics Lavender Absolute (of course no longer available, does any know who they sourced from? Paul?).

Btw my wife's view is this (she has smelled them all before but not for some time and forgot):

Bontoux: Immediately loved and said would wear alone. Said feminine when asked.

Maillette: Said green and fresh. Not much flower. Went back to Bontoux and decided Bontoux was masculine. Went back to Maillette and said now seemed weak.

Fleurs: Did not like as much as Maillette.

Absolute: Hated, with terms such as "cat's ass."

Bontoux together with Absolute: better than either alone.

Fleurs with Absolute: good

Maillette with Absolute: did not like.

Her favorite by far is the Lavender Spanish (Bontoux.)

She had more to say than this, particularly negative stuff with regard to the Absolute but that is what I recall.

Oh wait, she has used the word "skunk" for the Absolute again. And is going wild for the Bontoux, like a cat with catnip, and is asking me to make a cologne with it. Says it should be an essential oil for every woman, makes you feel loved. Says I need to go to a lavender field (has said this before.)

So I guess Lavender Oil Spanish Pure (Bontoux) is the winner for her? It is my overall favorite as well. But for a light lavender you can use more of, with other things supplying character, those PA French ones are good too.

Not passing the cut for this "review": LN 40/42, LN Lavender France, PA Lavender Diva, EB Lavender Maillette, and some others no longer in hand but not as good IMO.

EDIT: While "Bontoux" doesn't appear on the Perfumer Supply House webpage, the Lavender Oil Spanish 100% Pure is this same Lavender. Bontoux is the producer.

 

[mnitabach]

This is awesomely useful! Thanks, Bill!

 

[Yuri-G]

For a feminine I am particularly fond of Perfumer's Apprentice Lavender France Maillette (Vielle) and also their Lavender France Fleurs (Robertet), with their Fleurs being lighter and more coumarinic and their Maillette having a bit more depth. Top notch stuff to me.

Either absolutely can be used in a masculine as well without in any way going metro. It's just that it's going to be light and you're going to need your solid punch elsewhere. Which is of course very doable.

For a masculine I most prefer PSH Lavender Spanish (Bontoux) and White Lotus Aromatics Lavender Absolute (of course no longer available, does any know who they sourced from? Paul?).

Btw my wife's view is this (she has smelled them all before but not for some time and forgot):

Bontoux: Immediately loved and said would wear alone. Said feminine when asked.

Maillette: Said green and fresh. Not much flower. Went back to Bontoux and decided Bontoux was masculine. Went back to Maillette and said now seemed weak.

Fleurs: Did not like as much as Maillette.

Absolute: Hated, with terms such as "cat's ass."

Bontoux together with Absolute: better than either alone.

Fleurs with Absolute: good

Maillette with Absolute: did not like.

Her favorite by far is the Lavender Spanish (Bontoux.)

She had more to say than this, particularly negative stuff with regard to the Absolute but that is what I recall.

Oh wait, she has used the word "skunk" for the Absolute again. And is going wild for the Bontoux, like a cat with catnip, and is asking me to make a cologne with it. Says it should be an essential oil for every woman, makes you feel loved. Says I need to go to a lavender field (has said this before.)

So I guess Lavender Oil Spanish (Bontoux) is the winner for her? It is my overall favorite as well. i don't know if Christine can get more. But for a light lavender you can use more of, with other things supplying character, those PA French ones are good too.

Not passing the cut for this "review": LN 40/42, LN Lavender France, PA Lavender Diva, and some others no longer in hand but not as good IMO.

Thanks Bill, that's a very comprehensive answer!

 

[Bill Roberts]

I'm glad you asked Yuri, because your doing so made for some very good home entertainment!

Btw I have checked and my bottle on which Christine hand wrote Lavender Spanish Bontoux is the same material she offers as Lavender Oil Spanish 100% Pure.

 

[Bill Roberts]

On this same subject, have any tried the John Steeles and might provide a comparison?

I have never bought a John Steele lavender largely because there are rather many* and there isn't enough description for me to decide between them. Further they are very pricey, I am very happy with lavender I have already, and while ordinarily I very much like John Steeles it does seem to me he has a tendency to deeper notes and that might not suit me with lavender. The above-mentioned Spanish is just right to me in that regard.

* Extra Fine Organic Provence, "Mailette" France, "Mailette" Organic France, Organic Kashmir, Vintage Organic Tasmania, White Organic French Pyranees, Wild Bulgaria. ($205 total cost to buy the minimum quantity of each).

?

 

[tobacco]

...
Absolute: Hated, with terms such as "cat's ass."
...
She had more to say than this, particularly negative stuff with regard to the Absolute but that is what I recall.
...
Oh wait, she has used the word "skunk" for the Absolute again. And is going wild for the Bontoux, like a cat with catnip, and is asking me to make a cologne with it. Says it should be an essential oil for every woman, makes you feel loved. Says I need to go to a lavender field (has said this before.)

Hilarious and lovely! ) very informative and entertaining post!

 

[Bill Roberts]

I hope you enjoyed as much as I did! Thank you!

Now, surely, I ought to go make something for her with it. (Not the Absolute, the Bontoux.)

 

[Clare30]

I have been brought here with thoughts of buying large amounts of lavender hearing the news of the debacle in Brussels.

Lavender absolute - cat's ass- which one was it? I mean supplier WLA got it from? Was it off? I have problems with the sweetness and heaviness of some lavender absolutes, but never smell cat pee. I think that LA always benefits from being blended with a light version of the E/O to lift it.

I am a firm believer that lavender E/o improves with age - (softens and mellows and becomes more courmarinic- don't quote me on this) if it is kept cold and dark. No bottle has ever lasted me more than a few years, though.

The best lavender absolute I ever smelled was Bulgarian and was not the dark green of the French, but light amber coloured and clear. Eden botanicals used to stock it and then discontinued it and I have never found it anywhere since. Even Bulgarian LA I find now is dark green. It was amaaazing.

 

[Bill Roberts]

WLA has never (so far as I know) shared information on their suppliers, so there is no saying where it was from, unless someone happened themselves to acquire material from the same supplier and noticed the two products were identical.

I don't think it was "off," it was my wife's perception and almost for sure some percentage, whether very small or medium or large I cannot say, would think the same, but myself I thought it was fine and had no such perception.

In some cases she utterly despises materials that to me are fine, and in others she cannot detect aspects which are objectionable to me, or only does so after some time and then does realize it. Saying what is already well known, there can be considerable individual differences in perception.

In another Lavender case, it was quite interesting to me that a Liberty Natural Lavender Hydrosol that I quite liked, which smelled exactly like barbershop lavender they splash you with except better quality, was absolutely abhorrent to her. She wanted to flee the room. Then I realized she had never been in a men's barbershop and so it was totally unfamiliar. Many times these things are associative rather than inherent to a material.