Sample Pass: "Old ~vs~ New" Vertical Testings -- Join Us?

[IsoESuperman]

@LiveJazz, a nice write-up for Messe. I love the older Etro stuff (Sandalo, Vetiver, Palais Jamais, etc.), but Messe I admire more than love. I've got an EdC bottle of the same age, and the more I wear it (which isn't too often!) the more I get the feeling of patchouli playing a significant role in the whole "stone church basement" thing. It's an incense oddball but not nearly as difficult to wear as I imagined it might be, after reading some reviews. Its vibe feels right at home in the house, though.

I've been scouring the internets for a decant place with a newer Messe so we can all compare. The only place I found it so far does not ship to the US. If anyone finds it somewhere, please let me know! I'm more than happy to buy it and send it to whoever has the pass at the time.

I'm excited about the lineup. Despite over a decade of vintage hounding, I haven't smelled Cabochard or Vent Vert.

 

[Jean-Sté]

I'm following this thread with great interest. Thanks to all the people testing perfumes, and giving their impressions ! 🙏

 

[Varanis Ridari]

I got the package and will start looking them over soon. I might take a bit longer than some pass participants because there are things here I've never smelled and thus want to write full reviews for in the directory.

 

[CookBot]

I got the package and will start looking them over soon. I might take a bit longer than some pass participants because there are things here I've never smelled and thus want to write full reviews for in the directory.

We are prepared. 🐉

 

[CookBot]

Despite over a decade of vintage hounding, I haven't smelled Cabochard or Vent Vert.

Incroyable!

 

[Diddy]

Great reading everyone’s thoughts so far!

 

[IsoESuperman]

Great reading everyone’s thoughts so far!

Get in here sha we’d love to have ya.

Incroyable!

Es la verdad pero I’ve worn Ma Griffe PdT many a times and imagined it’s quite close to Vent Vert.

I guess I’ll eventually find out how wrong or right that is.

 

[Diddy]

Get in here sha we’d love to have ya.


Es la verdad pero I’ve worn Ma Griffe PdT many a times and imagined it’s quite close to Vent Vert.

I guess I’ll eventually find out how wrong or right that is.

Keep me in mind for towards the end. I have had some extremely generous BN members sending me samples lately and I’ve an appreciable amount of things to nose through. Some members are just so overwhelmingly generous, that I’ve no proper words to express my thanks. Literally today I received a package with about 30 items in it, mostly relatively expensive items to obtain, and I feel obliged to properly test. But this thread for sure interests me, and I am happy to participate. Whenever it’s the best time for me to jump in, feel free to message me (in case I miss it here) and I’ll get onboard. TYSVM.

 

[CookBot]

Whenever it’s the best time for me to jump in, feel free to message me (in case I miss it here) and I’ll get onboard. TYSVM.

Duly noted!

 

[Varanis Ridari]

Reviews are up for the 1947 and 1990 Vent Vert. I didn't see the 1999 one here among the samples, so I can't speak on that one yet,

I found the two remarkably close, although there's no doubting the depth of the 1947 original. The 1990 seems to be of the same spirit, using quality materials for the time as well, just skewing a bit more contemporary for the time with the way it dries down.

Once at the base, the two are much more alike than they are different. More to follow, food is here.

 

[Toxicon]

@LiveJazz, a nice write-up for Messe. I love the older Etro stuff (Sandalo, Vetiver, Palais Jamais, etc.), but Messe I admire more than love. I've got an EdC bottle of the same age, and the more I wear it (which isn't too often!) the more I get the feeling of patchouli playing a significant role in the whole "stone church basement" thing. It's an incense oddball but not nearly as difficult to wear as I imagined it might be, after reading some reviews. Its vibe feels right at home in the house, though.

I've been scouring the internets for a decant place with a newer Messe so we can all compare. The only place I found it so far does not ship to the US. If anyone finds it somewhere, please let me know! I'm more than happy to buy it and send it to whoever has the pass at the time.

I'm excited about the lineup. Despite over a decade of vintage hounding, I haven't smelled Cabochard or Vent Vert.

Fragrancenet has the current Messe... and a slew of the newer Etros. I was sorely tempted to jump on Palais Jamais a couple months back, but I snoozed and missed it.

https://www.fragrancenet.com/fragrances/etro/messe-de-minuit-etro/edt#266071

(P.S. - if you bite the bullet on anything from Fragrancenet, make sure to do the Google Shopping trick to get the best discount code. You go to google and search for something you know Fragrancenet has in stock; go to the Google Shopping tab and poke around until you find the fragrancenet link. Click through and it will automatically apply the best available coupon. For a while it was 40%, but it's been 37% for a few months now.)

 

[Diddy]

Fragrancenet has the current Messe... and a slew of the newer Etros. I was sorely tempted to jump on Palais Jamais a couple months back, but I snoozed and missed it.

https://www.fragrancenet.com/fragrances/etro/messe-de-minuit-etro/edt#266071

(P.S. - if you bite the bullet on anything from Fragrancenet, make sure to do the Google Shopping trick to get the best discount code. You go to google and search for something you know Fragrancenet has in stock; go to the Google Shopping tab and poke around until you find the fragrancenet link. Click through and it will automatically apply the best available coupon. For a while it was 40%, but it's been 37% for a few months now.)

Just recently did this for Vodka on the Rocks and 1872. Great advice!

 

[LiveJazz]

Reviews are up for the 1947 and 1990 Vent Vert. I didn't see the 1999 one here among the samples, so I can't speak on that one yet,

I found the two remarkably close, although there's no doubting the depth of the 1947 original. The 1990 seems to be of the same spirit, using quality materials for the time as well, just skewing a bit more contemporary for the time with the way it dries down.

Once at the base, the two are much more alike than they are different. More to follow, food is here.

Nice reviews, though our impressions seem to go in opposite directions: I found the original to be lighter and more delicate.

I looked around my scattering of samples and cannot find a stray 1999 Vent Vert that escaped shipping. I will say that some of the samples were not with their “families” as packed in the medicine bottles due to their mismatched heights, and also I think modern VV was one which had previously leaked and smeared. Are there any with inconclusive markings which may be it?

 

[Varanis Ridari]

Nice reviews, though our impressions seem to go in opposite directions: I found the original to be lighter and more delicate.

I looked around my scattering of samples and cannot find a stray 1999 Vent Vert that escaped shipping. I will say that some of the samples were not with their “families” as packed in the medicine bottles due to their mismatched heights, and also I think modern VV was one which had previously leaked and smeared. Are there any with inconclusive markings which may be it?

The base felt denser and heavier in the original, more powdery and solid, a bit more dank. The 1990 version had less of that, more sharpness of the greens further into the drydown, more florals.

Update: I found the 3rd version sample vial of Vent Vert. While I am not able to review it proper since it isn't in the directory (I just submitted it for that purpose, I can surmize that it is a lot more sheer and missing most of the powdery mossy bits from the previous two formulas, but the musks and woods are there.

The Feisthauer formula also seems to be abandoning some of that marigold-like pastiness up front for more hyacynth and what feels like fragipani, being a bit sweeter for it. 1999 Vent Vert still feels like the same fragrance, but filtered trough remix that seeks to tame and smooth.

It's my least favorite of the trio

 

[Brooks Otterlake]

This thread makes me smile. Such a lovely idea and such lovely contributions!

 

[CookBot]

This thread makes me smile. Such a lovely idea and such lovely contributions!

Could we entice you to join us, Brooks?

 

[CookBot]

Update: I found the 3rd version sample vial of Vent Vert. While I am not able to review it proper since it isn't in the directory (I just submitted it for that purpose, I can surmize that it is a lot more sheer and missing most of the powdery mossy bits from the previous two formulas, but the musks and woods are there.

It's here:

Pierre Balmain - Vent Vert (1999 Version) perfume

basenotes.com

 

[Brooks Otterlake]

Could we entice you to join us, Brooks?

I have a bit too much going on at the moment, but I'll happily watch from the sidelines.

 

[Couronne de Violette]

A woman after my own leathery heart! Bonus points for "OG hirsute patchouli." I am obsessed with Cabochard, although it repulses me sometimes. The vintage EDT is my go-to "bitchy" fragrance when I feel no-nonsense and focused.

Here is my little troop:


The far left is a bath oil that is pretty fantastic; none of the sharpness, but all of the fruitiness of patchouli/IBQ, subdued florals, and the tangy edge of leather, along with mellow sweetness. The parfum is a true blend, although I think the florals have lost something with time. One of the first perfumes I smelled was my mother's 60's Cabochard parfum, and I REALLY got a whiff of the beautiful flowers in that - I can say it was my first taste of what perfume could be.

The current Cabochard EDP is very good - a sort of mid-point between the old parfum and EDT. Not mind-blowing, but a decent interpretation. Doesn't last too long, and the drydown is sort of blah, imo.

 

[Varanis Ridari]

It's here:

Pierre Balmain - Vent Vert (1999 Version) perfume

basenotes.com

Yep, that's my directory submission, Grant must have literally saw it and approved it overnight.

I also reviewed it as well. Now you can read my extended thoughts on all 3 iterations in the pass, beyond the comments I have left here.
Onto the next set of fragrances!

 

[CookBot]

I also reviewed it as well. Now you can read my extended thoughts on all 3 iterations in the pass, beyond the comments I have left here.

"Of course, if the vintage enthusiasts weren't happy with Becker's respectful reconstruction, they would be in absolute hateful furor once they smelled the 1999 edition."

Yep, that's me alright.

Gosh, both you and LiveJazz were much kinder to the recent Vent Vert than I expected you to be. I really think it's unspeakably vile. Painful, even. I'd take Pine-Sol over it any day.

 

[Varanis Ridari]

"Of course, if the vintage enthusiasts weren't happy with Becker's respectful reconstruction, they would be in absolute hateful furor once they smelled the 1999 edition."

Yep, that's me alright.

Gosh, both you and LiveJazz were much kinder to the recent Vent Vert than I expected you to be. I really think it's unspeakably vile. Painful, even. I'd take Pine-Sol over it any day.

I didn't find it vile, just annoyingly over-simplified.

The missing components are not replaced, and everything remaining is turned up, with a new Cheez-Whiz base to smooth over hurt feelings.

I'm actually sad this ran for as long as it did, but not sad it is gone. Wearing it grated on me after the drydown hit.

 

[grayspoole]

A woman after my own leathery heart! Bonus points for "OG hirsute patchouli."

Glad you liked that! I enjoyed seeing your bottles of Cabochard, and your insightful comments.

The synthetic, fractionated, cleaned-up versions of “patchouli” typically found in modern feminine pink “chypres” just mystify me. Why call it patchouli at all if only to explain, in the next marketing burble, that this isn‘t hippie or funky or head-shop or skanky patchouli. Heaven forfend!

I think natural patchouli smells amazing, and I think it is infinitely preferable and more interesting than modern replacements such as, for example, Firmenich’s Clearwood—

“Soft, clean version of Patchouli without the earthy, leathery and rubbery notes found in the natural oil” (description from the Perfumer Supply House).

Or, in other words, why bother? Clearwood is yet another creamy, woody amber. Firmenich classifies Clearwood as a “natural” ingredient, developed using “white biotechnology” (the name for actual category of biotechnology, it seems, with rather unfortunate connotations) so it can be described as such by those who like to greenwash (or whitewash) their perfumery descriptions.

 

[PStoller]

The synthetic, fractionated, cleaned-up versions of “patchouli” typically found in modern feminine pink “chypres” just mystify me. Why call it patchouli at all if only to explain, in the next marketing burble, that this isn‘t hippie or funky or head-shop or skanky patchouli. Heaven forfend!

I think natural patchouli smells amazing, and I think it is infinitely preferable and more interesting than modern replacements such as, for example, Firmenich’s Clearwood—

“Soft, clean version of Patchouli without the earthy, leathery and rubbery notes found in the natural oil” (description from the Perfumer Supply House).

Or, in other words, why bother?

While I’m with you in preferring whole patchouli in its many complex variations, there are valid reasons perfumers would want to isolate aspects of patchouli, or any other natural: control and predictability. Patchouli isn’t going to be the entire or defining ingredient in most applications, but it can overwhelm whatever else the perfumer is trying to do.

The thing is, as you point out, many current fragrances, especially “feminines,” are “skank-free” when finished, a sort of olfactory airbrushing. In what I think of as perfumery’s Golden Age (from the synthesis of coumarin to the crackdowns of the SCCS), that was anything but the case. One could layer the sweet aspect of patchouli over earthy, leathery, and/or rubbery notes from other sources to create something three dimensional in the manner of a natural, but of a new character. Instead, we have a plethora of perfumes Barbie might wear.

What I’m getting at is, note isolation needn’t result in accord sanitization. It just enables it, and the questionable aesthetic that goes with it.

 

[grayspoole]

While I’m with you in preferring whole patchouli in its many complex variations, there are valid reasons perfumers would want to isolate aspects of patchouli, or any other natural: control and predictability. Patchouli isn’t going to be the entire or defining ingredient in most applications, but it can overwhelm whatever else the perfumer is trying to do.

The thing is, as you point out, many current fragrances, especially “feminines,” are “skank-free” when finished, a sort of olfactory airbrushing. In what I think of as perfumery’s Golden Age (from the synthesis of coumarin to the crackdowns of the SCCS), that was anything but the case. One could layer the sweet aspect of patchouli over earthy, leathery, and/or rubbery notes from other sources to create something three dimensional in the manner of a natural, but of a new character. Instead, we have a plethora of perfumes Barbie might wear.

What I’m getting at is, note isolation needn’t result in accord sanitization. It just enables, and the questionable aesthetic that goes with it.

I agree, if you don’t judge ingredients on whether or not they are more or less “natural” or “synthetic” or, to use the latest marketing buzzword, “clean” (and I don’t) it comes down to different aesthetic choices. Vintage perfumes are usually praised for their complex, smoothly blended accords, and long evolution. It is often not possible, nor was it a goal, to be able to “pick out the notes.” Using a larger percentage of natural and therefore more intrinsically complex ingredients, synthetics such as Guerlain’s famous unrefined and smoky vanillin, as well as the vintage perfume bases that were themselves compounded of dozens and dozens of ingredients shaped this aesthetic.

Flip this, and you can say that vintage perfumes smell murky, heavy, and…to use the most damning critique of all…”perfumey” ( ha!). In many modern perfumes, a different aesthetic is operating, focusing on simplified accords and distinctive notes. Molecule 01, marketed as a “pure scent,’ is a vivid example. Linearity is not a bad thing, and many modern perfumes seemed designed to have an immediate powerful impact when tested and to maintain a consistent smell for an extended period of wear (or disappear in a half hour).

Our vertical testing exercise offers us ample opportunities to reflect on these differences, and perhaps find some positive aspects about the modern reformulations. I don’t think anyone has quoted Turin & Sanchez’ account of Vent Vert yet. Here, the aesthetic valuations are obvious: complex = good and simple = bad.

Because Cellier used to fill in her stark accords using lots of bases (ready-made modular compositions), which were getting increasingly hard to source. When Becker was given the original formula, she unfolded it into its components by looking at the composition of each base (some of it re-entrant: base A used base B and vice versa). In the last analysis, she found that the original Vent Vert contained upward of eleven hundred components, which she reduced to thirty-odd. The 1991 Vent Vert, while less symphonic than the original, had some of the charm of familiar music played by a smaller ensemble: the newfound clarity made it possible to appreciate the tune to the fullest. Not the real thing, but a very good effort. In 1999, the formula was changed again by Nathalie Feisthauer and this time completely defaced. Instead of a three-course meal, you get an airplane tray. Everything comes at once, and all in miniature. Vent Vert (version three) has become a linear perfume, with little time evolution save a terrible cheapening of the formula as time goes on and the money runs out, a sort of dollar dance in reverse.

The funny thing is, 1947 Vent Vert smells pure and simple to me, despite its eleventy billion ingredients. I have put it on many times with the idea that, this time, I will really, really focus on the note breakdown. And I usually fail, because the whole composition is what beguiles me, not the parts, and I just want to enjoy it. The 1991 Becker smells good to me too, perhaps cleaner and sharper, somewhat sweeter and more floral, but enjoyable.. Haven’t tried the Feisthauer yet.

 

[CookBot]

Using a larger percentage of natural and therefore more intrinsically complex ingredients, synthetics such as Guerlain’s famous unrefined and smoky vanillin, as well as the vintage perfume bases that were themselves compounded of dozens and dozens of ingredients shaped this aesthetic.

Does anybody know exactly why the perfume industry stopped regularly using such prefabricated bases? It seems like it would be very cost-efficient, and lord knows the bean counters have ruled the day since the turn of the current century.

I realize the classic bases became untenable due to ingredient restriction, but it seems like they could have come up with law-abiding ones to take their places.

Haven’t tried the Feisthauer yet.

I am *so* looking forward to your appraisal of it.

 

[LiveJazz]

Does anybody know exactly why the perfume industry stopped regularly using such prefabricated bases? It seems like it would be very cost-efficient, and lord knows the bean counters have ruled the day since the turn of the current century.

I realize the classic bases became untenable due to ingredient restriction, but it seems like they could have come up with law-abiding ones to take their places.

I feel like the standard AC combinations we see now are de facto prefabricated bases. They're just the IP of the manufacturers as opposed to specific houses. The better to extract rent on their IP, I presume. Since the relevant aromachemicals are patented or otherwise locked up, I'm sure there are legal reasons houses can't truly "own" a prefabricated combination that is unique to them, or market an accord as "theirs".

Adding: I'm curious, though...do the likes of Firmenich create unique compounds specifically for houses, if requested and paid appropriately? If so, those compounds could be contractually linked to just that house. I wonder if that's part of their business model, or if it's more "here's this new scent we created, who wants to use it?"

 

[grayspoole]

I feel like the standard AC combinations we see now are de facto prefabricated bases. They're just the IP of the manufacturers as opposed to specific houses. The better to extract rent on their IP, I presume.

This is an interesting way to think of it. Some bases are still being produced using captive ingredients, in what seems to be more a way of marketing the captive ingredient by presenting it as part of a usable accord than an attempt to sell the base. And there are archival independent perfumers (such as Jamie Frater, Paul Kiler, active on our DIY Forum) who produce their own bases.

This Fragrantica article focuses on new “de Laire” bases offered by Symrise. I would love to know if and how often these are used, or if they are are just for demonstration at perfume expos:

New Face of the Legendary De Laire

I often imagine Cellier pouring in one vintage de Laire base after another into a beaker, cigarette in hand.

 

[IsoESuperman]

I often imagine Cellier pouring in one vintage de Laire base after another into a beaker, cigarette in hand.

...and then ashing into the beaker of Bandit and saying, "Parfait!"

 

[CookBot]

I feel like the standard AC combinations we see now are de facto prefabricated bases. They're just the IP of the manufacturers as opposed to specific houses. The better to extract rent on their IP, I presume.

Makes sense.

Adding: I'm curious, though...do the likes of Firmenich create unique compounds specifically for houses, if requested and paid appropriately?

I just assumed they were doing this, since quite often now you'll see "supplier" (IFF, Firmenich, etc.) listed below the name of the perfumer/nose.

 

[PStoller]

I just assumed they were doing this, since quite often now you'll see "supplier" (IFF, Firmenich, etc.) listed below the name of the perfumer/nose.

I think that means the company supplied the perfumer under contract, not just the materials.

 

[CookBot]

I think that means the company supplied the perfumer under contract, not just the materials.

Oh really! I had no idea. So like loaning out an actor to a different movie studio, eh? (If we were in the 1930s.)

 

[Couronne de Violette]

The synthetic, fractionated, cleaned-up versions of “patchouli” typically found in modern feminine pink “chypres” just mystify me. Why call it patchouli at all if only to explain, in the next marketing burble, that this isn‘t hippie or funky or head-shop or skanky patchouli. Heaven forfend!

Have you tried Ravel Faun? Nice combination of bergamot and patchouli, almost a date/prune aspect - dark brown depth, although no hippy girl funk. Stays close to the skin and is interesting despite its simplicity.

 

[PStoller]

So like loaning out an actor to a different movie studio, eh? (If we were in the 1930s.)

Not quite like that, because Firmenich, IFF, et al. don’t operate as retail perfumers. The arrangement (as I understand it, which could be inaccurate) is more vertical than lateral. Many houses who do not maintain an in-house roster of perfumers, or don’t rely exclusively on such a roster, may contract with the relative handful of big suppliers for perfumers and formulae. These companies and perfumers haven’t always been credited—and may still not be, depending on the terms of the contract.

Someone more knowledgeable about the business of perfumery can confirm or deny my notion of how it works.

 

[grayspoole]

Have you tried Ravel Faun? Nice combination of bergamot and patchouli, almost a date/prune aspect - dark brown depth, although no hippy girl funk. Stays close to the skin and is interesting despite its simplicity.

I have not. I should look into it, but “hippy girl funk” might be exactly what I am looking for. (For the record, I want to point out that punk rock girls, like I was, also wore patchouli with our Dr. Martens and motorcycle jackets. Can’t let the hippies have all of the patchouli…)

I‘ve been feeling lately that I should have a patchouli-focused scent, just for fun. Claire V recently did a “tournament of patchoulis” on her blog (she’s reposting many of the reviews here), and she gave high marks to Santa Maria Novella’s Patchouli, so that’s another one I want to try.

Claire V’s posts are always good reading…

Personal Pantheon of Patchouli Perfumes, Part I
Personal Pantheon of Patchouli Perfumes, Part II

 

[LiveJazz]

I have not. I should look into it, but “hippy girl funk” might be exactly what I am looking for. (For the record, I want to point out that punk rock girls, like I was, also wore patchouli with our Dr. Martens and motorcycle jackets. Can’t let the hippies have all of the patchouli…)

I‘ve been feeling lately that I should have a patchouli-focused scent, just for fun. Claire V recently did a “tournament of patchoulis” on her blog (she’s reposting many of the reviews here), and she gave high marks to Santa Maria Novella’s Patchouli, so that’s another one I want to try.

Claire V’s posts are always good reading…

Personal Pantheon of Patchouli Perfumes, Part I
Personal Pantheon of Patchouli Perfumes, Part II

SMN Patchouli definitely qualifies as "hippy girl funk", though I have to say it's very, very similar to a good patchouli oil. As Claire says, there are just a few other nuances, and so as good as it is, I have to wonder if it's worth the extra price when the overall effect is 95% "I am raw patchouli, hear me roar".

I have a decent amount and can send you some. Would be curious to read your thoughts. I really do like it (because I like the smell of raw patchouli), but I have mixed feelings on recommending it broadly as per above.

 

[grayspoole]

SMN Patchouli definitely qualifies as "hippy girl funk", though I have to say it's very, very similar to a good patchouli oil. As Claire says, there are just a few other nuances, and so as good as it is, I have to wonder if it's worth the extra price when the overall effect is 95% "I am raw patchouli, hear me roar".

I have a decent amount and can send you some. Would be curious to read your thoughts. I really do like it (because I like the smell of raw patchouli), but I have mixed feelings on recommending it broadly as per above.

Oh that is very kind of you! I would love to try a tiny bit. I was waiting to visit SMN on my next trip to NYC since they don’t do samples, as far as I can tell.

 

[Varanis Ridari]

I have had to pause the sampling after my Vent Vert trio due to work, lack of time after it, and a brief bit of sinus pain.

If my holding of the samples grows too long for the group, I'll cancel mid-way and ship off, denoting what I tried and what I didn't.

In fact, I can skip the Fahrenheit and Or Black comparisons because I already did them years back, if that helps expedite things.

 

[PStoller]

I have had to pause the sampling after my Vent Vert trio due to work, lack of time after it, and a brief bit of sinus pain.

If my holding of the samples grows too long for the group, I'll cancel mid-way and ship off, denoting what I tried and what I didn't.

In fact, I can skip the Fahrenheit and Or Black comparisons because I already did them years back, if that helps expedite things.

I’m not sure how the route is configured, but as a fellow west-coaster, I might be next, and I’m traveling next week, so I’m by no means in a rush to receive. My vote is you rest your sinuses and return to active duty when the pain subsides and work permits.

 

[CookBot]

I’m not sure how the route is configured, but as a fellow west-coaster, I might be next, and I’m traveling next week, so I’m by no means in a rush to receive. My vote is you rest your sinuses and return to active duty when the pain subsides and work permits.

Seconded.

and a brief bit of sinus pain.

I'm blaming that 1999 version of Vent Vert.

<Joking/Not joking>