Questions and a Journal from a perfume Noob

[DezireFrags]

I wanted to ask a few things, I know it’s tricky asking perfumers their bewitching secrets 🧙‍♀️.

Do you believe in the masceration process? I do try to beleive it, the aging or dissolving oils to be more uniform amongst one another molecule wise. My question is do they still mascerate in alcohol? Like is it bettter to mascerate before you drown them in alcohol? Is using light heat a good way to mascerate them?

Maybe it’s a different magic , the two molecules interact and say hello to one another then date and have kids or something which radically changes a perfume who knows! Nature is magical 🧙‍♀️

Next I wanted to ask, even if the oils are dissolved in alcohol does it form some sort of barrier between the skin? Or is it because they’re less concentrated. I’m trying to understand why the IFRA limits ingredients when heavy synthetics to at have “altering” effects on the human body are still allowed.

I know perfume houses just love oak moss, but we’re told it can’t be a certain amount because it’s skin sensitizing. Even still most houses will ignore that fact lol.

Do you guys wear protective gear and all that while doing perfume work? If I got some on me I just wash my hands really good.

I made something that smells good!
it has pine, lime, neroli, bergamot, blood orange, patchouli, labdanum, amber, benzoin, ylang ylang, cedar wood, fir balsam absolute and a small amount of agarwood.

I enjoyed the transformation from high citrus, to that sweet nasty ylang ylang, then gave it some labdanum, woods, benzoin, and fir balsam to really round out the bottom. I used fir balsam absolute and that stuff is powerful! It smells great! It’s used in Lvnea ghost pine. I would call this creation Dryad. It’s so alluring with the godly sweetness from the fruits, followed by that musky botanicals. I really had fun with this one.

I’ve sourced them from lvnea, edenbotanicals and aftelier by Mandy aftel. I bought her perfume book and it’s very helpful for beginners personally.

I’m using small drops for all these tests lol. I saw a method where they separate the top, heart, and base notes. Basically so that you could combine them and not waste product if it doesn’t smell well, but I just drop stuff in the same dish as my first experiment.

This post may feel like a trail of thoughts, but some of them are questions lol. I purchased some Siberian deer musk, castoreum and sandalwood, I’m hooping to get some real ambergris and civet soon. I know Civet would definitely wield itself well in my amateur creation. I might experiment with synthetics someday but for now I’ll use naturals and natural isolates. Synthetics just make me gag and my friends would too.

Perfume holy handbook
1.) Thou shallt knoweth skin safety
2.) Thou shallt store oils properly
3.) Thou shallt weareth proper PPE
4.) Know thy milligrams and dilutions
5.) Thou shallt not crosseth contaminate

 

[pkiler]

Since you are questioning, that's great... I wish I had more time for your quest of knowledge tonight. (sorry, I have way too much work to write out the many answers to you...)
You seem somewhat open to ideas though, so I wanted to say, with no mean intention, that several, many of your impressions and attitudes need some change or enlightenment. Maybe I can c0ome back to your questions later... or someone else can help answer too.

With the exception that you need to work in weight, not drops.

 

[Quay Limey]

I can take a few of these.

Do you believe in the masceration process? I do try to beleive it, the aging or dissolving oils to be more uniform amongst one another molecule wise. My question is do they still mascerate in alcohol? Like is it bettter to mascerate before you drown them in alcohol?

Yes, maceration is a thing, but maceration happens in the ethanol. Maturation of composition happens in undiluted form. The best way to determine if there is any substance to the theory is to test a blend you’ve assembled yourself. How does the aroma alter after a week, a month, three months.

Is using light heat a good way to mascerate them?

I’ve read a few ‘cult’ perfumers claiming they use heat to “alter” the composition in ways they don’t really explain in any detail. I think it’s more of a marketing tool than anything else. Having written that, using heat will alter your composition, but more than likely in uncontrolled and undesirable ways. Again, experiment and you’ll know firsthand. But in general, no, don’t heat your fragrance concentrate unless you need to dissolve a stubborn solid that requires gentle heat to go into solution. Let it sit in a dark and cool location to mature for as long as you choose, swirling occasionally for the first week or so. Then, after a period of time, add alcohol to the concentrate and let it macerate for your chosen period of time. I send out samples after a few days of macerating and I rarely get complaints of ethanol openings. It will all depend on your formula.


Maybe it’s a different magic , the two molecules interact and say hello to one another then date and have kids or something which radically changes a perfume who knows! Nature is magical

No, what you suggest is just witchy crap. Leave it at the door, sister. ; )

Having written that, vanillin is known to reproduce!

Next I wanted to ask, even if the oils are dissolved in alcohol does it form some sort of barrier between the skin? Or is it because they’re less concentrated. I’m trying to understand why the IFRA limits ingredients when heavy synthetics to at have “altering” effects on the human body are still allowed.

The IFRA restrictions are based on empirical studies of materials. They are reasonably transparent about how and why. If you have issues with certain chemicals being allowed for use even though they have potential hormone disruption properties etc. then perfumery probably isn’t for you. As you go on you find it’s a very un-eco thing to pursue.

Embrace the dark side; it's fun.

I know perfume houses just love oak moss, but we’re told it can’t be a certain amount because it’s skin sensitizing. Even still most houses will ignore that fact lol.

If fragrance houses wish to sell in the EU and UK then they will compose accordingly. You might find a different formula for different countries but I can’t really speak from any firsthand knowledge on that.

Many perfumers create accords to replicate oakmoss and with the right marketing they can convince a large number of consumers they're smelling the real thing, though old hands know better and can invariably tell the difference.

Interestingly, some consumers only buy into a brand if they feel they aren’t IFRA compliant. Rebels, everywhere…

Do you guys wear protective gear and all that while doing perfume work? If I got some on me I just wash my hands really good.

I wear nitrile gloves when blending or diluting. I can detect the faintest of smells and dislike the aroma wafting up if I want to eat. I don’t find soap, cleaning gel or alcohol is sufficient to remove even the most subtle of materials. Each to their own, but I prefer not to taste sandalwood when eating a beef and dripping sandwich.*

*Edit : I lied. I can never draw the line at one.

 

[DezireFrags]

@Quay Limey @pkiler

Thanks for the insight!
They only in alcohol but anything could happen right, wear nitrile gloves, and research skin safety. I purchased a scale that will hopefully be sensitive for grams. I bought some lab equipment off Amazon too!

 

[ourmess]

I purchased a scale that will hopefully be sensitive for grams.

You will want a scale that goes to milligrams, not grams. Something like this, for example.

 

[DezireFrags]

I wanted to ask and it may sound dumb, but essential oils comprise many perfumes right?

We have synthetic compounds, isolates natural or synthetic, essential oil, absolutes, concrete.

Am I missing anything? Is there a reason many house don’t prefer to use naturals? I put together oils and they smell wonderful! But I’m like this is very different compare me to what other perfume houses create, maybe it’s because you start getting into accords and using isolates to make new scents. Then prompting them with synthetics to reduce cost.

Skin safety is perhaps the biggest reason maybe. Is alcohol a suitable enough barrier? I know it’s used to basically solubilize the oils so they’re not all compacted in one area this allowing your skin to not have a big reaction to it.

Are attars just 100% perfume oil or essentials oils just with a light amount of carrier oil?

I wore what I created earlier and it smells very nice! I made sure to wash a bit of it off since I’m still paranoid of reactions

 

[ourmess]

Is there a reason many house don’t prefer to use naturals?

Because broadly speaking, synthetics tend to be cheaper than naturals, safer than naturals, more consistent than naturals, and give a broad range of scents that simply don't exist within naturals.

 

[David Ruskin]

All houses, and all perfumers use naturals, especially when naturals provide an effect that nothing else can achieve. Use what you want to get the result that you want.

 

[LaFou]

I’m almost sure that Dior sauvauge has ultrazur (Givaudan) in it!
and yes what ourmess and David said is true!

i just didn’t want to start a new thread for my ultrazur thing 😅

#TheThreadCrasher

 

[DezireFrags]

Do you guys have any suggestions for putting tests for storage? I thought maybe using 2ml decant bottles would be suitable or perhaps 5ML, I’m starting small so think it’s the right call. However they’re not wide enough for a routine magnet pill to stir them up. I did find 30ml perfume bottles.

I used wide mouth facial cream cups to better test the aroma when testing perfume as it gives a wider spread of scent, however they store like crap because the lids will seep oil if it falls over once lol.

I tried looking for decent glass jars but they’re really expensive but I’m guessing because they’re stronger? I’ll buy a 100ml or 500ml soon enough haha

 

[pkiler]

I’m almost sure that Dior sauvauge has ultrazur

I'm not saying that it doesn't contain Ultrazur, but if it does it would like be in the 0.05% or less range.
It does not show up on my PA rather insensitive GCMS report.

 

[pkiler]

Do you guys have any suggestions for putting tests for storage?

All of my tests are in 15ml bottles with black phenolic caps and polycone liner.

 

[LaFou]

I'm not saying that it doesn't contain Ultrazur, but if it does it would like be in the 0.05% or less range.
It does not show up on my PA rather insensitive GCMS report.

If it does, that means Im actually doing something right and getting better!
please if doesn’t, lie to me and say it does and let me have this 🤣😅

Why I said that it might have it, because I was having my daily sniff exercise and when I reached to ultrazur it almost instantly hit me hmmmm Dior sauvage trace or scent or something familiar in it..

anyway, if it doesn’t I stand by my fake request of false hope ✊😂 #dontKillTheHope

as always thank you Paul 🙏

 

[LaFou]

All of my tests are in 15ml bottles with black phenolic caps and polycone liner.

I have a recommendation to ask please,
I found a supplier who provides by carton of 1365 bottle of 30ml amber or clear with airtight cap for a very cheap price (110$)

only thing it’s plastic PET

he said all pharmaceuticals and essential oils company’s use it!

is it true! Can I use it and dilute my materials in it? The chemicals won’t be affected with the plastic? PET stuff

kindly advise

 

[pkiler]

I would not recommend anything but Glass, if you can help it.
Not everything is reactive with Plastic... but I have marked on my Benzaldehyde bottle, DO NOT SPILL ON PL:ASTIC.
Benzaldehyde will melt my vinyl plank flooring, for instance. We tested the flooring with acetone, alcohol, wine, and a few other things, but Benzaldehyde eats my flooring... But I love the flooring, because I can drop glass bottles on the floor all day long, and not break anything...

 

[Septime]

Skin safety is perhaps the biggest reason maybe. Is alcohol a suitable enough barrier? I know it’s used to basically solubilize the oils so they’re not all compacted in one area this allowing your skin to not have a big reaction to it.

Are attars just 100% perfume oil or essentials oils just with a light amount of carrier oil?

I wore what I created earlier and it smells very nice! I made sure to wash a bit of it off since I’m still paranoid of reactions

This article in Perfumer & Flavourist Magazine suggests that a good safety standard for attars is to adhere to the ingredient limits in IFRA category 9 (which is otherwise soap, shampoo and shaving cream). For ordinary alcohol-based fragrances and solid fragrances you'd be looking at category 4. (And here is an updated 2019 version of the categories vs the 2015 one from the article.)

 

[LaFou]

I would not recommend anything but Glass, if you can help it.
Not everything is reactive with Plastic... but I have marked on my Benzaldehyde bottle, DO NOT SPILL ON PL:ASTIC.
Benzaldehyde will melt my vinyl plank flooring, for instance. We tested the flooring with acetone, alcohol, wine, and a few other things, but Benzaldehyde eats my flooring... But I love the flooring, because I can drop glass bottles on the floor all day long, and not break anything...

I follow your advice Paul, glass it is!
I paid all that money to come now and possibly ruin the materials with plastic! that would be the height of 🤦‍♂️
thank you 🙏

 

[DezireFrags]

Wanted to ask, since information is so hard to find. Does the alcohol smell dissipate over time while it macerates in the oils? Or perhaps is it because the alcohol evaporates regardlesss so there always will be an alcohol smell. I’m using vetiver perfumers alcohol!
I’m still waiting for those 15ml bottles that was recommended to come in, a smaller spout!

 

[pkiler]

I follow your advice Paul, glass it is!
I paid all that money to come now and possibly ruin the materials with plastic! that would be the height of 🤦‍♂️
thank you 🙏

Early on, I bought some materials from Ebay from WF Medical, and they came in blue plastic bottles. The fluids ended up being blue in color, after awhile. Had to toss those items.

 

[LaFou]

Early on, I bought some materials from Ebay from WF Medical, and they came in blue plastic bottles. The fluids ended up being blue in color, after awhile. Had to toss those items.

😬😬😬 that’s not good! Im glad I asked You then! If I only learn from my mistakes it will be a loooooong trip, that’s why is good to ask

 

[DezireFrags]

Big lesson learn today is never go cheap when buying lab equipment. Purchased a $30 stirrer and the day after doesn’t turn on lol. Can’t handle Dominion energy I guess 😂.
Perfect coincidence to buy a hot plate by onilab, their stirrer has worked well for me in the past but their $100 was a cheap plastic one as well and it fell broke something inside wouldn’t stir.
I need the hot plate for the pine absolute by Lvnea that was so viscuous. I double boiled it and with the help of a chopstick got most of it out. Wasted 1-2g always feels bad..
diluted 15g of pine absolute in 50g of 200 proof to make a 20% solution. Very strong stuff! Might dilute it further to 10%.
Ordered the .001g to the recommendation earlier can’t wait! I only had a 0.01 which sucked lol.
Ordered 5g of civet paste. I’m considering doing the 5% civet 30% orris filtration method I saw but am considering getting Indian oud and doing a coabsolute it’s called? Maybe add frankincense as well if I can find a decent one with an orange aspect to it. Ensar talked about how civet goes really well with powdery or zesty orange notes!

Some of the thing I’ve learned the hard way for some essential oils

Nutmeg - very potent! I added 2 drops (no scale yet lol) and was very overpowering at first, but after a day it settled down quite nicely. So definitely would make me panic thinking oh shit I messed up.

Fir needle Siberian by lotus garden - They stopped selling this for some reason. They were a good source of Siberian fir which is really hard to find a good brand that doesn’t look like an MLM. Honestly one of my favorite pines, it has a great balsamic scent that feels like a tree underwater, it would definitely go well with a marine themed blend or any aquatic masterpiece. Areej le dore made baikal gris with fir!

Onycha- hard to find, got a tincture off aftelier perfumes. Strong sea note, but I can see how well this would pair with Ambergris of the white gold variety. Has an earthy powdery, slightly Smokey note to it and honestly I would just make this myself, but it’s ready made. Plus it comes with the shells so you can retincture them to capture a faint scent to your liking.

Ylang ylang - I didn’t realize how potent of a fixative this flower was. I only put 3 drops in a already 50-70 drops and can still see the notes throughout!

Ambergris - one of the hardest to find that is already tinctured and aged, bought a 10ml for $100 and now it’s $500 for 10ml lmao.. a sweet powdery note much like jasmine

So many great ingredients offered by nature!

Shipping list
- Tonka Bean
- Ambergris
- Maybe synthetic civet
- Some decent musk alternatives

Edit: pine absolute really needs to be diluted at 5-10% it’s so sticky and powerful lol. Another lesson learned to wear gloves while handling absolutes. This absolute got all over my freaking jars and had to be washed lol. Lvnea uses a 30% dilution so they must only use a couple drops lol

So I’ve learned it’s best to have multiple % of dilutions. 10% is good but it only adds subtlety while 20% is like I’m here and 30% is like sup mfer?😂 gotta wait to buy another pine absolute jar now

 

[DezireFrags]

What is the term that compounds the effects of other notes? Like amplifiers? Like musk ketone fixating a particular note so it lasts longer.

Also any recommendations for a perfume organ? I’m thinking of getting one that folds outwards like a fridge or double door fridge to say. Getting quite full on the table lol

 

[Thioacetone]

Big lesson learn today is never go cheap when buying lab equipment. Purchased a $30 stirrer and the day after doesn’t turn on lol. Can’t handle Dominion energy I guess 😂.
Perfect coincidence to buy a hot plate by onilab, their stirrer has worked well for me in the past but their $100 was a cheap plastic one as well and it fell broke something inside wouldn’t stir.

Make your own stirrer.
This is mine: computer fan (I used CPU fan), 2 neodymium magnets,, Arduino to power/control it
It only cost me $5 (for the magnets), as I already had the fan and Arduino.



My next step is to try building one with a stepper motor and implement some speed adjustment mechanism.

 

[DezireFrags]

I purchased some musk tinctures from ninja Robb! Can’t wait! I’m making my own home brew of Russian musk, so many interesting nuances. Yesterday I dissolved my first 2g of tonka bean into a 25% solution. Very beautiful scent!

I also dissolved some oakmoss after a bit of difficulty thankfully it’s nothing like pine absolute lol.. definitely a wonderful base note I love the subtle spicyness of it. I should look at getting some veramoss at a good dilution.

I’m thinking if I should add some rose to it to give a bit of water and maybe dew like aspect to it as the forest. Would be so cool to have a perfume that has a morning midday, noon afternoon and night aspect. That would probably be a banger scent for a forestry themed chypre

I might have to buy my own pod sooner or later depending if this ninjarobb one has the hair and skin piss aspects to it as I only want grains! A nice chocolate slightly furry metallic one hopefully. Maybe a bit of castoreum.

I can never buy oud as it is outrageously expensive because of the huge market for it and harder to find ouds that are cheap and have certain aspects to it, oh well. I don’t really care for expensive oud if you can synthetics it. Mandy aftel has a decent agarwood from Indonesia for $24 per 5ML. Has a bit of funk, very lite oud

 

[DezireFrags]

I’ve learned an important thing today when diluting absolutes, some absolutes like pine absolute are really sticky and tar like so 10% is great but I think with any absolute I’ll just dilute to 20% and work it down from there if needed be! Plus I have to track all alcohol dilutions by weight so when it comes to filling if I want a stronger 30% dilution then I can work it that way as well! 😇.

I’m sending a test sample of my ghetto musk to a friend and hope they will like it!

Labdanum lesson 20% dilution… I’ll have to start at 0.10 and go up, soon as .2g it changed the whole perfume direction lol..

One thing I’m regretting is trying to smell the perfume while it is in the alcohol solution because I’m also breathing in alcohol vapors like an idiot… my nose feels puffy inside now, very annoying…

I have a question, does perfume become safer as it Mascerates? I dilute by the rules mostly by weight. Especially for ingredients like oakmoss. I know alcohol will preserve the oils so that they don’t oxidize and become photosensitive for some.

Just to understand I refrigerate anything with citronella or limonene due to the breakdown properties it has? Any nice ideas for a smol fridge to store them in 😂

Just had a scary moment, so skin safety should be the number one rule for me. I put 0.05g of cinnamon which when I look it up you should have max 0.07% of cinnamon. So shit! I need to look up every ingredient before I give my friend a reaction. The solution is 30% with being 2g weight. So that means there was about 2.5% of cinnamon in it which is 35x the safe amount . did a patch test and of course my skin was irritated. Will not do this again with out look up every ingredient first. Luckily no burns just skin lookin a little pinkish. I’ll have to scrap this test and start over now that I have a scale that’s pretty solid. I’ll compose a list of maximum percentages an ingredient can have and post them here for ones relevant. I have the essential oil safety handbook as well.

One last thing, when they mean .07% of the solution does that mean before you dissolve it in alcohol? So 70g alcohol 30g oils you need for the cinnamon to be .021g per 30g of oil or .07g per 100g total solution?

 

[DezireFrags]

Feel free to call me out for being stupid with cinnamon 🥲

 

[Thioacetone]

Feel free to call me out for being stupid with cinnamon 🥲

hah. been there done that too.

I can't use any % of cinnamon or it will irritate my skin - even at levels way below IFRA limit.
My skin seems super sensitive to a lot of stuff
Which really sucks because there are lots of things I like the smell of that I can't use - cinnamon, liquidamber styraciflua, ?labdanum

I really like cinnamon. I need to find a cinnamon aroma chemical that won't irritate my skin.

How did you calculate the 0.07% limit?

 

[Thioacetone]

Oh I see.

https://www.freshskin.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Cinnamon-Bark-Essential-Oil-IFRA-Conformity-Certificate.pdf

 

[Thioacetone]

Ok, it means that cinnamon bark oil cannot exceed 0.07% of the final product mass - i.e. after adding alcohol

 

[Thioacetone]

I would avoid it altogether. At that concentration it will hardly be contributing anything to the scent, and it could still irritate your skin.

 

[DezireFrags]

I would avoid it altogether. At that concentration it will hardly be contributing anything to the scent, and it could still irritate your skin.

It’s sad, because cinnamon has that extra spicyness to it. I’ll have to see if there are any alternatives. Thankfully nutmeg and cardamom aren’t as badges

 

[Thioacetone]

My vape juice is cinnamon flavoured and doesn't irritate my throat.. hmm i wonder what they use in it

 

[Thioacetone]

It’s sad, because cinnamon has that extra spicyness to it. I’ll have to see if there are any alternatives. Thankfully nutmeg and cardamom aren’t as badges

do you have myrrh or patchouli?
I mean they are nothing like cinnamon, but they are a bit spicy

 

[Thioacetone]

I am browsing TGSC cinnamon listings
I found this http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/es1059391.html#tosafiu

 

[DezireFrags]

I am browsing TGSC cinnamon listings
I found this http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/es1059391.html#tosafiu

There is still hope!! 😍

 

[DezireFrags]

I’m reading Rodney young and Robert tissue and a book essential oil safety. Wonderful wealth of information! You learn neat things like how hexacholorphene was used in antiseptic for baby soaps which caused brain damage and death in some cases. Johnson and Johnson would have rolled that shit out for sure!

Ah yes, my favorite chapter the skin and cinnamaldehyde is one of the prevalent examples but there is a neat concept how aged cinnamaldehyde can form cinnamic acid.

Cinnamaldehyde is one of the few record instances of anaphylaxis wow… definitely not something you want to play with.. why would you even eat the bark lol.

Wanted to ask do you guys dilute your essential oils with alcohol as soon as you get them to preserve them or does that even matter?

 

[DezireFrags]

IFRA MAX Levels to avoid Phototoxic reactions to my blend. If UV light possibly strikes these for more than 12-18 hours it could cause an effect

Bergamot Oil- 0.4%
Lime oil expressed - 0.7%
Lemon oil - 2.0%
Grapefruit Expressed - 4.0%
Mandarin Leaf - 0.17%

Sensitization

High Risk
Cassia/Cinnamon Bark Oil 0.05%-0.07%
Oakmoss Absolute 0.1%

Moderate Risk
Clove bud - 0.5%
Opopanax - 0.6%
Styrax - 0.6%
Jasmine Absolute - 0.7%
Ylang Ylang oil/Absolute - 0.8%

Low Risk
Sandalwood Oil 2.0%
Tolu Balsam 2.0%
Benzoin resinous - 2.0%
Jasmine Absolute Sambac - 4.0%
Wild Bergamot - 5.7% (geraniol content)
Geranium - 17.5%
Citronella - 18.2%

This is why it’s so important to track weight! I’ll update this as time goes on

 

[Thioacetone]

I’m reading Rodney young and Robert tissue and a book essential oil safety. Wonderful wealth of information!

oh yeah i got that book on my computer but haven't really read it yet - ill get around to it soon - sounds interesting.

 

[DezireFrags]

Does anyone else get a stuffy nose when sampling their scent? I think it might be the alcohol, because I’m trying to smell it as it is drying off on my test strip lol.

Also do you dilute by weight or volume? Damn it is weight lord.. I sometimes forget these thjngs luckily my absolutes are by weight

 

[DezireFrags]

Today I learned you also have to refrigerate pine oils due to the oxidization potential. Well shit, my essential oils are about 1 and a half year old, I did keep my citruses in the fridge for that duration but now I have doubts. They still smell great but not being able tell really bothers me