Pure hedione as a fragrance?

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
It is up to you of course to experiment and find what you like, this is what it's all about. Still, I believe you might be surprised by how little can go a very long way. Calone and Bergamot, for example, are usually not dosed at the same order of magnitude. For Calone 1.5% is probably at least 10 times (and to be honest, more like 100 times) more than what you would usually want to use.

You can have a look here to find the common concentrations for many ingredients: https://www.unguentarius.com/ingredient-statistics

It is often beneficial to go very far up or down from these common "comfort zones". Nevertheless, doing it out of well-informed intention, rather than unknowingly, can prevent a lot of frustration.

I think it's fair to say that learning perfumery the hard way may actually be the only way. If I'm recalling correctly from an interview w Manny Cross, he said he got started because he wanted to make his own perfume & so just ordered some e.o.s from Eden Botanicals & tried to just mix them together AND IT DIDN'T WORK...AT ALL. I suspect those who continue to actually learn perfumery are motivated by wanting to understand WHY it didn't work & open the wonderful pandora's box of available information & advice (such as here); those who give up quickly think "I just wanted to do something very simple & these jerks won't just tell me how & keep giving me these bizarre explanations of complicated weird shit I can't even comprehend".
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
The first interesting thing that likely will be discovered about lovely citrus top accords constructed solely from citrus e.o.s & not backed up by anything else other than hedione is that they will only last a few minutes on skin & will be perceived as weak.
 

Big L

Super Member
Nov 23, 2019
The highest dosage I've seen for Calone is just short of 1%, but normally 0.25% is high.
Wow, the highest I have seen was 15 ppt. 1% would be something like 50-100, I assume.

"Rules" are made to be broken, but it's always good to be aware of them. I would love to see the formula, or if you are willing, to share some of the other parts there.
 

Roberto Schiller

Basenotes Member
Dec 12, 2021
I can't find a single person selling a pure hedione spray online. It's always mixed with Iso-E Super, ambroxan or something else. Is it really such a terrible idea, that not a single person has thought to do it? Have any of you tried it? There's some surprising uniqueness factor here, as pure hedione has seemingly never been commercialized like pure Iso-E or ambroxan.

As a fan of transparent fragrances, I'm thinking about buying some high-CIS hedione to wear on its own. I think I'll be able to smell it, because I very clearly smell and love the breezy jasmine aspect of BR540. It's like half paradisone. Do you guys have any tips for a non-perfumer on how to handle and wear high-CIS hedione? Or the best places of purchase for someone living in Finland? I think there's some unique minimalist "signature" potential here :)
Something like Molecule 1?
 

AJ Dave

Super Member
Aug 5, 2020
How did it go? I accidentally spilled some hedione in a different room from where I keep my ACs. Even though I thought I cleaned it up, I can still smell it just over two weeks later now from across the room. It smells like magnolia, honeysuckle, and warm celery seed. It also smells like fabric softener and "like perfume" It's nice, fresh, not cloying, but it's not like "what is that really nice smell?" I have also worn hedione by itself just to see what happens. On my skin a lactonic and cocoa butter-like smell also shows up in the dry down. It's nice, but not something I would personally wear just by itself as a fragrance.
 

pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
Wow, the highest I have seen was 15 ppt. 1% would be something like 50-100, I assume.

"Rules" are made to be broken, but it's always good to be aware of them. I would love to see the formula, or if you are willing, to share some of the other parts there.
Sorry, Big L, I missed your request. Original issue Calvin Klein Escape Parfum had the largest load of Calone I've seen. I still keep a bottle in the perfume file cabinet. Gosh, I used to follow women around the mall to be in their scent wake with that perfume.
 

santeripe

Basenotes Member
Nov 28, 2021
How did it go? I accidentally spilled some hedione in a different room from where I keep my ACs. Even though I thought I cleaned it up, I can still smell it just over two weeks later now from across the room. It smells like magnolia, honeysuckle, and warm celery seed. It also smells like fabric softener and "like perfume" It's nice, fresh, not cloying, but it's not like "what is that really nice smell?" I have also worn hedione by itself just to see what happens. On my skin a lactonic and cocoa butter-like smell also shows up in the dry down. It's nice, but not something I would personally wear just by itself as a fragrance.
I haven't gotten my order yet, it's coming probably Monday or Tuesday next week. I'll definitely post my impressions and blend findings here then! Smelling hedione in fragrances like CK One, I've gotten the impression that it's like the smell of getting out of the shower. When you have that radiating fresh clean bubble. That's one of the best scents ever to me, and I'm optimistic about loving pure hedione because of that.

Speaking of non-cloying, I ate jam on toast today and was reminded by how amazing the jammy smell of burnt sugar is. It's like the epitome of sweetness in smell form without any "body". It'll be interesting to see what mainly ethyl maltol with a little bit of hedione in the background will smell like! If hedione brings lift as a background player, that combination would be the least cloying and most transparent sweetness ever.
 

Big L

Super Member
Nov 23, 2019
Sorry, Big L, I missed your request. Original issue Calvin Klein Escape Parfum had the largest load of Calone I've seen. I still keep a bottle in the perfume file cabinet. Gosh, I used to follow women around the mall to be in their scent wake with that perfume.
Thank you!
 

santeripe

Basenotes Member
Nov 28, 2021
Waking up with a headache today, I think I haven't mentioned that migraines are a major reason as to why I want to experiment with perfumery. What differentiates me from the average "odor-sensitive" person is that I absolutely love smells and treat them as a challenge. Non-irritating amazing fragrances do exist for me. With the odd exception of PdM Layton (complex masculine-gourmand bomb), they're mostly transparent molecular simple fragrances. That's what I'm aiming to create for myself.

I've noticed that citrus EOs on their own are more migraine-inducing to me than most fresh fragrances. They smell beautiful, complex and natural, but they tickle my migraine nerve. It's ironic considering "synthetic is bad" and "natural is good" according to most odor-sensitive people! I'd much rather do aromatherapy with ambroxan than these oils. They're beautiful as an opening blast, but it's great that they vanish quickly.

My theory is that smells activate different parts of the brain, and some of those happen to overlap with migraine areas. In my brain, an ingredient/accord in lime EO happens to stimulate a migraine area. But Iso-E Super as a singular ingredient doesn't stimulate that area. My negative experience with every single musky complex fragrance I've tried is why I'm averse to experimenting with musky complexity.
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
Waking up with a headache today, I think I haven't mentioned that migraines are a major reason as to why I want to experiment with perfumery. What differentiates me from the average "odor-sensitive" person is that I absolutely love smells and treat them as a challenge. Non-irritating amazing fragrances do exist for me. With the odd exception of PdM Layton (complex masculine-gourmand bomb), they're mostly transparent molecular simple fragrances. That's what I'm aiming to create for myself.

I've noticed that citrus EOs on their own are more migraine-inducing to me than most fresh fragrances. They smell beautiful, complex and natural, but they tickle my migraine nerve. It's ironic considering "synthetic is bad" and "natural is good" according to most odor-sensitive people! I'd much rather do aromatherapy with ambroxan than these oils. They're beautiful as an opening blast, but it's great that they vanish quickly.

My theory is that smells activate different parts of the brain, and some of those happen to overlap with migraine areas. In my brain, an ingredient/accord in lime EO happens to stimulate a migraine area. But Iso-E Super as a singular ingredient doesn't stimulate that area. My negative experience with every single musky complex fragrance I've tried is why I'm averse to experimenting with musky complexity.

It will be great to hear your observations once you start experimenting! Two things to consider as you interpret your experiments & compare them to the commercial fragrances you do & don't like: (1) What smells like "molecular simplicity" may very well be implemented by quite complex combinations of aromamaterials. (2) When you react adversely to "musky complex fragrance", it could possibly be neither the muskiness nor complexity per se that are generating such reactions, but particular aromamaterials or accords associated with those features that are the triggers. Regardless, as a neuroscientist and physiologist myself, I am both optimistic about your journey & excited to hear what you learn!
 

santeripe

Basenotes Member
Nov 28, 2021
(1) What smells like "molecular simplicity" may very well be implemented by quite complex combinations of aromamaterials. (2) When you react adversely to "musky complex fragrance", it could possibly be neither the muskiness nor complexity per se that are generating such reactions, but particular aromamaterials or accords associated with those features that are the triggers.
Yeah, Layton being non-irritating shows that these things shouldn't be approached with pure logic and prejudice! By logic based on my other experiences, it should be pure headache juice. Even some "normal" people say it gives them a buzzing headache. But I can spray it so strongly that I taste it, without it irritating my migraine at all. Somehow all its ingredients and complexity forms an accord that's non-irritating. Or maybe by total chance it doesn't include some random triggering aromachemical that's present in most fragrances.

If none of the aromachemicals I get are irritating by themselves, yet I'm able to create something irritating with them, that shows it's about the accord rather than singular elements. This is all very complex stuff depending on the individual. AFAIK it's not fully known why scents even trigger migraines, and the triggers are totally different for different people. But you must be more up-to-date on this stuff as a neuroscientist lol
 

santeripe

Basenotes Member
Nov 28, 2021
Okay, time for the very first initial impressions on what I got!

Hedione: I think this will take time to "learn" like Iso-E Super did. When I first opened the can, I got nothing. I then put a drop on skin, and got the very opposite of floral-fresh. Like something extremely faint, oily and dank. Nothing even remotely floral. Sprayed Molecule 02 on top (Ambroxan), now I'm getting a familiar smell from BR540 on skin. I thought this sorta damp skin-scent came from Evernyl, but it's apparently the combination of Hedione and Ambroxan smelled up-close! In the air, I'm starting to randomly get really nice wafts of something fresh. But they're barely there and very fleeting. Will continue wearing and testing.

Ethyl Maltol: A strong waft of photorealistic cotton candy appeared the second I opened the jar of powder. Really nice, actually! I made a 10% solution in DPG and put a drop on skin. I instantly went nose-blind to the cotton candy and now smell bread. There's nothing but a faint "carb-y" skin scent reminiscent of the crispy crust of bread. Opening the powder jar, I now get an unpleasant harsh smell that's not present in the DPG solution. I got none of that when I wasn't nose-blind first opening the jar. Goes to show that I have a much larger aura of cotton candy right now than I think.

Sweet Orange EO: This is undeniably higher quality than the citrus EOs I bought here in Finland. It's still natural in a complex non-perfect way, but smells very streamlined and polished in comparison. As polished as something natural can be, that is.

Allyl amyl glycolate: Brash synthetic canned pineapple. That's about it. I feel like this would work great blended together with other materials in a small dose, or in a tiny dose to support something else. It adds a certain character, but certainly isn't ready to shine on its own. The brashness disappears when it's super duper faint. It would be interesting to put a micro-dose of this into something like Ambroxan and see how it changes. For some reason I get a strong "cologne" association from this.

Ethyl Butyrate: Absolutely horrible on its own! Bleach and unscented toilet cleaner are fine fragrance compared to this. I never even put a pipette in, but the action of unscrewing the lid was enough to expose a minute amount of this substance to the lid's surface. Now I can smell it every 30 seconds. I hate even the tiniest trace waft I get in the air. It's pungent, gross, synthetic, intrusive and strange. It's like a superhero villain decided to make poison pineapple in a chemical factory. I've never blended this to see how it smells together with other things. But its sheer terribleness makes me reluctant to do so.

I'll post more updates later, as I make blends and comparisons!
 

Big L

Super Member
Nov 23, 2019
Thank you for sharing your observations and best of luck on your journey.
Allyl amyl glycolate ... For some reason I get a strong "cologne" association from this.
Trust your nose, the reason is that it is in many of them.
Ethyl Butyrate: Absolutely horrible on its own!
You will need to dilute it quite a lot to be able to appreciate it, but as you are beginning to realize, it is not on its own enough for creating a pineapple scent, rather a single aspect of it.

Unguentarius.com - Ethyl Butyrate
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
Sounds like you are doing great! Keep experimenting & carefully documenting your observations. And wrt ethyl butyrate, while I have no experience at all with that molecule, some of the most useful, most powerful molecules are those that either smell faint & useless or extremely strong & horrible...
 

AJ Dave

Super Member
Aug 5, 2020
Hedione: I think this will take time to "learn" like Iso-E Super did. When I first opened the can, I got nothing. I then put a drop on skin, and got the very opposite of floral-fresh. Like something extremely faint, oily and dank. Nothing even remotely floral.
Hedione used to smell weak and like disappointing citrusy magnolia to me. Now I smell ot fairly well.
Allyl amyl glycolate: Brash synthetic canned pineapple. That's about it.
I also don't care for aag by itself. It's really strong, and it smells good and bad at the same time. It really needs to be used properly in a blend.
 
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santeripe

Basenotes Member
Nov 28, 2021
I can already smell Hedione a bit better, especially as wafts in the air. Very nice, but very elusive lol. And surprisingly, a new pleasant facet has appeared to AAG! When smelling it very diluted from a 5% solution, I get the pleasant smell of new electronics. Like a plastic factory/sticker smell. This pineapple chemical could be used at trace amounts in a "new electronics" accord.

The Helvetolide and Edenolide I ordered last weekend may be arriving tomorrow. I got them because fruity musk sounds interesting, and partly because of Gabe Oppeneim's book "Ghost Perfumer". It's about the real story behind Creed's perfume business. Jean-Christophe Herault (real creator of Aventus) reveals in the book that a combination of Helvetolide and Ambroxan was the genesis of Aventus. Olivier Creed had approached Herault with the musk, asking him to make a masculine from it. Herault agreed, but wanted to make the fragrance super heavy in Ambroxan. How amazing these two materials smelled together apparently shocked Herault. This simple combo became the backbone for the development of Aventus. The rest is history.

Roja also won't stop going on about Helvetolide and "top musk" when talking about Elysium. I think it's where the similarity to Aventus comes from, because otherwise Elysium is an ozonic dewy vetiver with zero smoke. I'm interested to see whether this musk layered with Molecule 02 creates something reminiscent of Aventus. If someone already has Helvetolide and Ambroxan, can you test what smelling them next to each other is like?
 

santeripe

Basenotes Member
Nov 28, 2021
Update time! Helvetolide smells kinda "cheap" to me on its own, and I immediately connected it to fabric softener. But Edenolide smells very premium, comforting and smooth. I did a blend of it with Molecule 01, it's amazing! As for the Aventus connection, I do get a distant vibe layering Helvetolide + Ambroxan + Iso-E. I think it could be pushed closer with oakmoss and citruses. But it wasn't a "holy crap" masterpiece genesis moment for me lol.

I've also been wearing Hedione a lot. The "crushing" effect people talked about in the beginning of this thread is very real. Neither Iso-E nor Ambroxan do this. When I have Hedione on my neck, it's like the smelling resolution of my nose drops. Smelling my hand for example, I can detect that I'm smelling something. But I can't quite make out what the smell is like. It's like someone with bad vision taking off their glasses. Smelling the atomizers of fragrances, their complexity vanishes and everything becomes very floral-smooth. Interesting effect.

As for the floral part's odor, it's eerily familiar for something I can't connect. When I first caught a whiff after a drop had dried on my hand for hours, I was surprised by how boring and non-exotic it was. It's like the most basic smell ever, that I'd never experienced in a pure form before. It leans feminine but isn't explicitly feminine. Kinda like an aldehydic soap not smelling weird on a guy, despite that type of scent being very feminine as a perfume. It's missing all the extra context that would push it to undeniably feminine territory.

I think I have an idea why my first sniff was so weird. Hedione isn't one molecule, but a mix of isomers. The different isomers have different odor thresholds. Because the transparent floral isomer is by far the strongest, I immediately went anosmic to it, only being able to smell the fatty-dank weaker isomers. These weird isomers are too weak to impact blends, only standing out on their own. But now that my nose is trained, I can detect the stronger floral isomer even in high concentration. This is very different from any of the Molecules and I do love it on its own!
 

chyprefresh

Basenotes Dependent
Jan 15, 2018
I personally find the only reason for perfumery to exist is to mix things together and create a new unique scent. But having a solid understanding of what you're working with is key, it doesn't require turning single ingredients into perfumes though. The power of chip clips and paper strips.
 

pavomi

Super Member
Sep 3, 2016
I personally find the only reason for perfumery to exist is to mix things together and create a new unique scent. But having a solid understanding of what you're working with is key, it doesn't require turning single ingredients into perfumes though. The power of chip clips and paper strips.
thanks for your opinion. i personally do perceive perfumery out of a more open perspective. which includes referential and relational approaches, intertextual, or lets say inter'olfactional' approaches. and please don't get me wrong, i do not vote for hedione as a single molecule 'perfume' per se, but it might work well in the right context given.
 

Suppressor

Basenotes Dependent
Dec 7, 2006
@Big L
@pkiler

Imagine you want to make a hedione bomb, how would you start?
Based on your experience?

I am of course not asking for a perfect formula, otherwise I could mail Ellena or Kurkdjian for a formula.
But you guys have more experience than me.

Imagine you want to make a hedione bomb, giving it strength, projection, with an uplifting, bright effect.
With which ingredients would you start experimenting? Based on your knowledge and intuition?
 

Big L

Super Member
Nov 23, 2019
I am flattered that you chose to mention me like that together with Paul, but don't be confused by my activity on this forum. Paul has many more years of experience and skill than I.

As for your question, I never tried to create something I would consider a hedione bomb. As I wrote earlier in this thread, I believe that too much hedione misses the point. Instead of the uplifting, brightness, and volume, it can bring to a formula – too high a ratio of hedione to the other components will, in my opinion, round everything too much. It will make the formula too sweet and sticky, bringing to mind an overripe fruit.

That being said, I encourage you to try and find out for yourself, I believe that with hard work you will find what you are looking for and the way there is going to be worth it all.

You would probably want to push the hedione more in the citrus direction, rather than the Jasmine one, to keep it bright and uplifting. The main suspects for me would be bergamot and petitgrain. Perhaps with some orange flower, neroli kind of thing to tie it together. And don't forget the iso e super.
 

Flavorsthenfrags

Basenotes Member
May 18, 2020
I can already smell Hedione a bit better, especially as wafts in the air. Very nice, but very elusive lol. And surprisingly, a new pleasant facet has appeared to AAG! When smelling it very diluted from a 5% solution, I get the pleasant smell of new electronics. Like a plastic factory/sticker smell. This pineapple chemical could be used at trace amounts in a "new electronics" accord.

The Helvetolide and Edenolide I ordered last weekend may be arriving tomorrow. I got them because fruity musk sounds interesting, and partly because of Gabe Oppeneim's book "Ghost Perfumer". It's about the real story behind Creed's perfume business. Jean-Christophe Herault (real creator of Aventus) reveals in the book that a combination of Helvetolide and Ambroxan was the genesis of Aventus. Olivier Creed had approached Herault with the musk, asking him to make a masculine from it. Herault agreed, but wanted to make the fragrance super heavy in Ambroxan. How amazing these two materials smelled together apparently shocked Herault. This simple combo became the backbone for the development of Aventus. The rest is history.

Roja also won't stop going on about Helvetolide and "top musk" when talking about Elysium. I think it's where the similarity to Aventus comes from, because otherwise Elysium is an ozonic dewy vetiver with zero smoke. I'm interested to see whether this musk layered with Molecule 02 creates something reminiscent of Aventus. If someone already has Helvetolide and Ambroxan, can you test what smelling them next to each other is like?

Do you have any knowledge about where to start in creating something similar to Elysium? I really like the profile of the fragrance, and the performance is fantastic for a fresher fragrance.
 

NarcisoM

Super Member
Nov 25, 2019
Interested on this Hedione perfume. If you decide to give an ozonic fresh twist, you could try helional and Precyclemone B for the heart, and a tiny bit of Myrac aldehyde. I think they will combine well with calone and the citrus top notes you wanted to use.
 

Irfan Patel

Basenotes Member
Nov 30, 2021
Waking up with a headache today, I think I haven't mentioned that migraines are a major reason as to why I want to experiment with perfumery. What differentiates me from the average "odor-sensitive" person is that I absolutely love smells and treat them as a challenge. Non-irritating amazing fragrances do exist for me. With the odd exception of PdM Layton (complex masculine-gourmand bomb), they're mostly transparent molecular simple fragrances. That's what I'm aiming to create for myself.

I've noticed that citrus EOs on their own are more migraine-inducing to me than most fresh fragrances. They smell beautiful, complex and natural, but they tickle my migraine nerve. It's ironic considering "synthetic is bad" and "natural is good" according to most odor-sensitive people! I'd much rather do aromatherapy with ambroxan than these oils. They're beautiful as an opening blast, but it's great that they vanish quickly.

My theory is that smells activate different parts of the brain, and some of those happen to overlap with migraine areas. In my brain, an ingredient/accord in lime EO happens to stimulate a migraine area. But Iso-E Super as a singular ingredient doesn't stimulate that area. My negative experience with every single musky complex fragrance I've tried is why I'm averse to experimenting with musky complexity.
Same here also... Headaches from Citruses although I love citrus very much 😔
 

pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
@Big L
@pkiler

Imagine you want to make a hedione bomb, how would you start?
Based on your experience?

I am of course not asking for a perfect formula, otherwise I could mail Ellena or Kurkdjian for a formula.
But you guys have more experience than me.

Imagine you want to make a hedione bomb, giving it strength, projection, with an uplifting, bright effect.
With which ingredients would you start experimenting? Based on your knowledge and intuition?
Hey, I am sorry that I didn't answer yet... been very busy with Clients, I suppose.
I will dwell on your question and come back to it with some assistance later.
PK
 

parker25mv

Basenotes Dependent
Oct 12, 2016
Hedione smells nice, though not very strong in any distinct discernable type of smell, but personally I cannot stand when too much Hedione is used in a fragrance. The effect just gets too stuffy and cloying some time after the initial sniff. So I cannot imagine a fragrance that was only Hedione by itself. But different people do have different preferences.

Hedione might be what some consider a different type of musk, that stimulates a special "musk"-type receptor different from the other musks. It is really in its own unique family. Hedione could certainly be considered a fixative.
 

pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
Imagine you want to make a hedione bomb, how would you start?
This is a complete shot in the dark: (Just a portion of a finished 90 line formula, pulled out and reproportioned).

INGREDIENTGramsPERCENT
Hedione HC0.95011.23%
Scentenal0.0450.53%
Helional0.0300.35%
Cascalone0.0650.77%
Floralozone0.1822.15%
Galaxolide neat1.54218.22%
Gamma Undecalactone0.1471.74%
Jasmal / Jasmonyl / Herbal Pyran0.2633.11%
Iso E Super1.55818.41%
Floralol0.4004.73%
Florosa0.6417.58%
Ocimene PQ0.0550.65%
Linalool0.3624.27%
Ethyl linalool0.2222.62%
Linalyl Acetate0.2500gr2.95%
Hedione0.6037.12%
Glycolierral0.3694.36%
Cis-3-hexenyl salicylate0.2282.69%
Alcohol C-10 / 1-Decanol0.22.36%
Alcohol C-12 Lauric / 1-Dodecanol0.354.14%
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
In addition to the formula Paul just posted, I think good inspiration can be gleaned from Firmenich Accord No 208096, available on the Good Scents database.
 

Suppressor

Basenotes Dependent
Dec 7, 2006
This is a complete shot in the dark: (Just a portion of a finished 90 line formula, pulled out and reproportioned).

INGREDIENTGramsPERCENT
Hedione HC0.95011.23%
Scentenal0.0450.53%
Helional0.0300.35%
Cascalone0.0650.77%
Floralozone0.1822.15%
Galaxolide neat1.54218.22%
Gamma Undecalactone0.1471.74%
Jasmal / Jasmonyl / Herbal Pyran0.2633.11%
Iso E Super1.55818.41%
Floralol0.4004.73%
Florosa0.6417.58%
Ocimene PQ0.0550.65%
Linalool0.3624.27%
Ethyl linalool0.2222.62%
Linalyl Acetate0.2500gr2.95%
Hedione0.6037.12%
Glycolierral0.3694.36%
Cis-3-hexenyl salicylate0.2282.69%
Alcohol C-10 / 1-Decanol0.22.36%
Alcohol C-12 Lauric / 1-Dodecanol0.354.14%

Wow that's a complex one for a simple, one-dimensional Hedione bomb.
 

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