Pure hedione as a fragrance?

santeripe

Active member
Nov 28, 2021
I can't find a single person selling a pure hedione spray online. It's always mixed with Iso-E Super, ambroxan or something else. Is it really such a terrible idea, that not a single person has thought to do it? Have any of you tried it? There's some surprising uniqueness factor here, as pure hedione has seemingly never been commercialized like pure Iso-E or ambroxan.

As a fan of transparent fragrances, I'm thinking about buying some high-CIS hedione to wear on its own. I think I'll be able to smell it, because I very clearly smell and love the breezy jasmine aspect of BR540. It's like half paradisone. Do you guys have any tips for a non-perfumer on how to handle and wear high-CIS hedione? Or the best places of purchase for someone living in Finland? I think there's some unique minimalist "signature" potential here :)
 

Big L

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
I am pretty sure you will be able to smell it. Most people can even smell the standard version. With the high Cis, I believe no has any problems. Will you enjoy wearing it on its own? I have no idea, give it a try and come back to tell us.

There are many suppliers for small quantities, and I believe the easiest for you will be to source it from De Hekserij in the Netherlands: https://www.hekserij.nl/shop/parfum-geur/geurstoffen/hedione-hc-fir/

Good luck on your quest!
 

santeripe

Active member
Nov 28, 2021
I am pretty sure you will be able to smell it. Most people can even smell the standard version. With the high Cis, I believe no has any problems. Will you enjoy wearing it on its own? I have no idea, give it a try and come back to tell us.

There are many suppliers for small quantities, and I believe the easiest for you will be to source it from De Hekserij in the Netherlands: https://www.hekserij.nl/shop/parfum-geur/geurstoffen/hedione-hc-fir/

Good luck on your quest!
Thank you so much, those rates are way cheaper for Finland than Pellwall! No way I would've found that site without your link.

People say that high-CIS is more citric and regular is more floral fresh. So I think I'm gonna go for the regular kind. It's apparently also more stable. Strength isn't an issue, as I'm getting 250ml undiluted lol
 

FragOz

Active member
Jan 8, 2022
Hedione is used as a booster for fragrance mixtures. This effect is its real strength, not its own odor. I guess it is just to tempting to mix it rather than use it on its own. But if you feel comfortable with it, then just do it! (y)

In addition to what Big L said I am very enthusiastic about DirectPCW from Grasse, France. The Hekserij.nl is good and reasonable priced and indeed your first go to. But top fresh and top quality comes from DirectPCW, they sell Hedione High Cis under the name Kharismal. They are not cheap but for me the the absolute freshness of their products is unbeatable. Quality sells. You have to place quite an order however as their shipping costs (in EU) are fixed price EUR 24,-

They use commercial names, so you may have to read the TDS or technical data sheet to find out which isomers are present. For Kharismal the TDS shows on page 1: Cis isomer (57: 67) which means 57% to 67% of the cis isomer. This is Hedione High Cis. Regular Hedione goes under the name MDJ (from its technical name methyl dihydrojasmonate) and is cheaper. As no isomer ratios are given in the TDS its a racemic 50:50 mixture of both isomers.
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
I am pretty sure you will be able to smell it. Most people can even smell the standard version. With the high Cis, I believe no has any problems. Will you enjoy wearing it on its own? I have no idea, give it a try and come back to tell us.

There are many suppliers for small quantities, and I believe the easiest for you will be to source it from De Hekserij in the Netherlands: https://www.hekserij.nl/shop/parfum-geur/geurstoffen/hedione-hc-fir/

Good luck on your quest!

I can only just barely smell hedione, either regular or high-cis (altho the latter slightly better), on its own, but definitely perceive strongish effects in blends.
 

Big L

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
I can only just barely smell hedione, either regular or high-cis (altho the latter slightly better), on its own, but definitely perceive strongish effects in blends.
Sorry, I guess I went too far with that claim then. (I thought I remembered you too have mentioned that you can't smell hedione on its own, but have no problem with the high-cis.)
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
Sorry, I guess I went too far with that claim then. (I thought I remembered you too have mentioned that you can't smell hedione on its own, but have no problem with the high-cis.)

I mean I can smell high-cis without a problem, but it is very faint. If I'm not mistaken, Paul K reported that it took him years to learn to smell hedione on its own?
 

Contrapunctus

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2021
Welcome in the Hedione-Club, Santeripe! - Hedione or Hedione HC (Firmenich; "Kharismal" is IFF product, which may smell a bit differnt) is in my own experience a lovely molecule on its own (appropriately diluted in EtOH) for sure. But as already mentioned, it's important to be aware of the airy-transparent and somehow impalpable character of Hedione. I'm not going to try to describe the scent of Hedione, because it would be pointless for you. Be prepared - in terms of perceptibility that Hedione may appear to you even weaker than Iso-E or Ambroxan, on its own, it's more like a gentle breeze. And this is exactly what I really like. Over the decades I got a bit tired wearing 'true' or 'real' perfumes. So, Hedione is just perfect for me., if I want to perfume myself at all. Another positive aspect (for me): you're definitely never going to annoy somebody with your Hedione EdT!

I'd recommend to buy Hedione as well as Hedione HC, just to make your own experience. You can also combine both. - Good luck & enjoy!

(Please note that Hedione HC (and other high cis versions) should be kept cool (storage) and they are not as stable as the regular versions.)
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
Interesting that you compare scent intensity of hedione to IES, as I too perceive hedione less intensely than IES. Yet in my blending experiments, I find too much hedione has much more "crushing" effects on the rest of the fragrance than too much IES.
 

Big L

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
Interesting that you compare scent intensity of hedione to IES, as I too perceive hedione less intensely than IES. Yet in my blending experiments, I find too much hedione has much more "crushing" effects on the rest of the fragrance than too much IES.
Although being able to smell hedione very well on its own, I defiantly agree with this claim. Using too much Iso E super, for me, makes its own scent too noticeable (as is with many other ACs) but not "crushing" everything else down to into a too "lovely" soup, as too much hedione does.
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
Although being able to smell hedione very well on its own, I defiantly agree with this claim. Using too much Iso E super, for me, makes its own scent too noticeable (as is with many other ACs) but not "crushing" everything else down to into a too "lovely" soup, as too much hedione does.

In an experiment yesterday, I started with a good-performing formula with 75 IES & 50 hedione HC. Switching to 50 IES & 75 hedione HC pureed everything into, as you say, soup.
 

santeripe

Active member
Nov 28, 2021
Welcome in the Hedione-Club, Santeripe! - Hedione or Hedione HC (Firmenich; "Kharismal" is IFF product, which may smell a bit differnt) is in my own experience a lovely molecule on its own (appropriately diluted in EtOH) for sure. But as already mentioned, it's important to be aware of the airy-transparent and somehow impalpable character of Hedione. I'm not going to try to describe the scent of Hedione, because it would be pointless for you. Be prepared - in terms of perceptibility that Hedione may appear to you even weaker than Iso-E or Ambroxan, on its own, it's more like a gentle breeze. And this is exactly what I really like. Over the decades I got a bit tired wearing 'true' or 'real' perfumes. So, Hedione is just perfect for me., if I want to perfume myself at all. Another positive aspect (for me): you're definitely never going to annoy somebody with your Hedione EdT!
Thank you, that's exactly what I'm looking for! Iso-E is very perceptible for me. On some days I could go for something even lighter. I bought Firmenich hedione, two 50ml bottles, an atomizer, a cap, two droppers, and a funnel. Denatured alcohol isn't sold at Hekserij. But I can easily get 1000ml for a couple euros at a local store here in Finland.

And to fullfill another sick and twisted fantasy of mine, I also got 10 grams of ethyl maltol powder to experiment. I'm going to try spiking hedione with cotton candy. Like BR540, but even more minimalistic. Or just wear the jammy sweetness on its own. Geza Schöen is probably getting shivers without even reading this.
 

Big L

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
Ethyl maltol will not disappoint you, although it is quite the opposite of transparent. Just make sure not to use too much. Start maybe with something like 10mg to 100ml alcohol. I was quite obsessed with overdosing a combination of ethyl maltol and ambrox when I started playing around with ACs.
 

polysom

Well-known member
Apr 4, 2021
I don't see a reason why experimenting with a pure hedione spray would be a bad idea. You only can discover things by experimenting. For me, I don't smell hedione (HC) from the bottle or on paper, but I can smell it nicely if applied on skin. I've tried 5% on skin and it was very nice. But it does not last very long, just a few hours. But for Hedione (HC) its not so much about the "smell" as such, more interesting is the activation of the pheromone receptor VN1R1. Which already works in minimal concentrations.

 

santeripe

Active member
Nov 28, 2021
I updated my order to add allyl amyl glycolate (pineapple), ethyl butyrate (pineapple), sweet orange EO, DPG to pre-dilute ethyl maltol, and some small test bottles. Everything came out to less than an average fragrance. I know exactly what I like/dislike, so I think these are the ingredients for a signature! Airy, fruity, sweet, fresh. I'll update you guys when I get my materials and get to blending :)
 

Big L

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
There is a very long road between knowing what you like and knowing how to express that with pure aroma chemicals. Still, every journey begins with a single step, and you just made that step. Good luck! I am looking forward to your updates.
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
I updated my order to add allyl amyl glycolate (pineapple), ethyl butyrate (pineapple), sweet orange EO, DPG to pre-dilute ethyl maltol, and some small test bottles. Everything came out to less than an average fragrance. I know exactly what I like/dislike, so I think these are the ingredients for a signature! Airy, fruity, sweet, fresh. I'll update you guys when I get my materials and get to blending :)

This is a decent way to get started with perfumery! I think you are going to find very quickly that you will want to buy some additional materials to take your composition to a place where it smells like "real perfume". Right off the bat, I am sure you will want some musk. But starting with hedione, ethyl maltol, and some powerful top as you have will allow you to make some very interesting accords & start learning.

Definitely come back when you get blending & report your experimental observations!
 

santeripe

Active member
Nov 28, 2021
There is a very long road between knowing what you like and knowing how to express that with pure aroma chemicals. Still, every journey begins with a single step, and you just made that step. Good luck! I am looking forward to your updates.
I know, fragrances don't take a year to make for no reason haha. I'm starting the road to my ideal "signature" now and will slowly build up to it. I'll start with pure hedione and see what small I changes I can make to improve on it and make it my own.
This is a decent way to get started with perfumery! I think you are going to find very quickly that you will want to buy some additional materials to take your composition to a place where it smells like "real perfume". Right off the bat, I am sure you will want some musk. But starting with hedione, ethyl maltol, and some powerful top as you have will allow you to make some very interesting accords & start learning.

Definitely come back when you get blending & report your experimental observations!
Thank you! I'm probably in a minority for loving super simple and transparent musk-less scents like the Molecule 01+ series and BR540. BR540 Extrait adds musk, but I think that ruins the transparent magic the EDP has. It's possible to get a rough sketch of the EDP with like 4 ingredients. I'm looking to create a rough transparent sketch like that, but my own version. Maybe I'll find it lacking, but even orange EO + hedione sounds like an amazing scent :)
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
Dunno abt "molecule" series, but pretty sure all perfumes have musks. There are very transparent musks lacking strong affirmative scents that can be used for "muskless" frags, but that still confer desirable effects of smoothness, drydown longevity, exaltation, etc. There is a great thread here on BR540 drydown that expanded into a fuller discussion of the frag. There is pretty much zero doubt that original BR540 has musk molecules in it. (The presence or absence of "musk" as one of the notes listed in the fragrance marketing materials doesn't mean shit.)
 

santeripe

Active member
Nov 28, 2021
Dunno abt "molecule" series, but pretty sure all perfumes have musks. There are very transparent musks lacking strong affirmative scents that can be used for "muskless" frags, but that still confer desirable effects of smoothness, drydown longevity, exaltation, etc. There is a great thread here on BR540 drydown that expanded into a fuller discussion of the frag. There is pretty much zero doubt that original BR540 has musk molecules in it. (The presence or absence of "musk" as one of the notes listed in the fragrance marketing materials doesn't mean shit.)
1000x times less musk than DPG according to that thread, wouldn't imagine it making much of an impact ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
1000x times less musk than DPG according to that thread, wouldn't imagine it making much of an impact ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The ratio of musk to DPG is irrelevant. What matters is the ratio of musk to other aromachemicals. The amount of ambrettolide in that formula is absolutely plenty to have a substantial impact, which of course is why it's in there.

Everyone comes into perfumery (and this forum) with a lot of assumptions that seem obviously correct, yet turn out to be completely incorrect. Those who make progress have the ability to set aside their assumptions based on experience. Those who remain firmly attached to their faulty assumptions generally fail to make progress in perfumery and disappear from the forum.
 

Big L

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
Balancing hedione with other molecules to keep its individual character is a highly complex task. You would probably need molecules to complement its different notes, perhaps some citrusy molecules and other related jasmone molecules. Very different than the ones you bought. I suggest you experiment and familiarize yourself with the ones you ordered, then continue your research, get more ingredients and experiment further.

This is not said to discourage you, quite the opposite. I share your love for simplicity (check out my 8 line formulas project). The dislike for musk I personally don't have, but you are not alone there as well. The celebrated genius Jean-Claude Ellena, one of the world-leading perfumers, dislikes musks and often said he uses none of them in his perfumes. His alternative, to no surprise, is hedione which, according to him, he uses in all of his formulas.
 

santeripe

Active member
Nov 28, 2021
The ratio of musk to DPG is irrelevant. What matters is the ratio of musk to other aromachemicals. The amount of ambrettolide in that formula is absolutely plenty to have a substantial impact, which of course is why it's in there.

Everyone comes into perfumery (and this forum) with a lot of assumptions that seem obviously correct, yet turn out to be completely incorrect. Those who make progress have the ability to set aside their assumptions based on experience. Those who remain firmly attached to their faulty assumptions generally fail to make progress in perfumery and disappear from the forum.
Yeah absolutely, I haven't blended a single ingredient yet! My love for everything lacking muskiness and "substance" just implies that I would probably love a self-made simplistic formula that doesn't have a lot of muskiness and "substance". I highly doubt this preference will change with me making the scent. None of the +100 professionally composed fragrances I've tried have changed it. But requiring musk that only balances out things without adding "substance" is likely the case, and that's a technical thing I will need to learn. I especially love the Molecule 01+ series because it's so "non-perfumey".
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
Yeah absolutely, I haven't blended a single ingredient yet! My love for everything lacking muskiness and "substance" just implies that I would probably love a self-made simplistic formula that doesn't have a lot of muskiness and "substance". I highly doubt this preference will change with me making the scent. None of the +100 professionally composed fragrances I've tried have changed it. But requiring musk that only balances out things without adding "substance" is likely the case, and that's a technical thing I will need to learn. I especially love the Molecule 01+ series because it's so "non-perfumey".

Sounds like you have the right attitude to do well with perfumery! 😹 😹 😹 If you come here with detailed accounting of exactly what you did, exactly what happened, and what you want to happen that didn't happen, you will get tons of good advice.

(Sadly, we have ppl show up here with analogous "straightforward" goals as yours, yet become belligerent when told that the "simple" questions they demand answers to aren't actually simple, don't have answers, and regardless won't help them achieve their goals.)
 

santeripe

Active member
Nov 28, 2021
Sounds like you have the right attitude to do well with perfumery! 😹 😹 😹 If you come here with detailed accounting of exactly what you did, exactly what happened, and what you want to happen that didn't happen, you will get tons of good advice.

(Sadly, we have ppl show up here with analogous "straightforward" goals as yours, yet become belligerent when told that the "simple" questions they demand answers to aren't actually simple, don't have answers, and regardless won't help them achieve their goals.)
I think it's pretty rad to make a signature perfume for yourself. Time could be spent doing way more mundane and pointless things! :p Trouble and learning is a part of every hobby. Gaming or sports wouldn't be fun if everyone was automatically a master.

I don't have any practical experience, but I do know that I want to create a beautiful simple fresh-sweet scent that's transparent like a breeze of air. That automatically rules out tobacco, ambers and other heavy-hitters. The rest I'll have to figure out with experience. Now I'll stop talking and wait for the ingredients to arrive before I get ahead of myself haha
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
I think it's pretty rad to make a signature perfume for yourself. Time could be spent doing way more mundane and pointless things! :p Trouble and learning is a part of every hobby. Gaming or sports wouldn't be fun if everyone was automatically a master.

I don't have any practical experience, but I do know that I want to create a beautiful simple fresh-sweet scent that's transparent like a breeze of air. That automatically rules out tobacco, ambers and other heavy-hitters. The rest I'll have to figure out with experience. Now I'll stop talking and wait for the ingredients to arrive before I get ahead of myself haha

One thing that's pretty important if you want to design fragrances that you enjoy for yourself, is to let go of the "note" designations that commercial perfumes are marketed with. These are all just bullshit puffery & if you constrain your thinking by such ontology, you'll miss out on a lot of great possibilities. For example, IMO you absolutely could make a "simple fresh-sweet scent that's transparent like a breeze of air" that has aspects of "tobacco" & "amber".

Anyway, as you say, this is all just words & soon you'll start blending!
 

AoF

New member
Nov 18, 2021
Thank you, that's exactly what I'm looking for! Iso-E is very perceptible for me. On some days I could go for something even lighter. I bought Firmenich hedione, two 50ml bottles, an atomizer, a cap, two droppers, and a funnel. Denatured alcohol isn't sold at Hekserij. But I can easily get 1000ml for a couple euros at a local store here in Finland.

And to fullfill another sick and twisted fantasy of mine, I also got 10 grams of ethyl maltol powder to experiment. I'm going to try spiking hedione with cotton candy. Like BR540, but even more minimalistic. Or just wear the jammy sweetness on its own. Geza Schöen is probably getting shivers without even reading this.
Can you share where you’ve found the denatured alcohol? I’m also in Finland and having trouble with that, there’s very few choices of lightly denatured ethanol, and they’re expensive.

Also, if you need more materials in the future, check perfumiarz.com, the shipping is much more affordable (9€ I believe it was) than dehekserij’s.
 

santeripe

Active member
Nov 28, 2021
Can you share where you’ve found the denatured alcohol? I’m also in Finland and having trouble with that, there’s very few choices of lightly denatured ethanol, and they’re expensive.

Also, if you need more materials in the future, check perfumiarz.com, the shipping is much more affordable (9€ I believe it was) than dehekserij’s.
I hadn't looked into the different types of denaturants when I said that. It turns out there isn't any way for a regular person here to get lightly denatured alcohol. Freely available denatured ethanol blends have bitter odorants. I've resulted to diluting with DPG. And I'm probably not going to dilute much, as it's for my own use.

On a side note, I just bought essential oils of mandarin, lime, bergamot and grapefruit before my big order arrives! I have the idea of creating my own natural citrus accord from these, and slapping it with a huge dose of hedione to create a simple fresh transparent "natural" fragrance. Perhaps hedione at +50% will work as a fixative. Combined with only applying on clothes or hair, due to natural citrus being phototoxic. Fabric/fiber will slow evaporation. But it'll still project due to the massive dosage of essential oil. I'll have to see if this idea works in practice. Screw IFRA's 0,7% limits :p
 

Suppressor

Well-known member
Dec 7, 2006
I'm also thinking about mixing both types of Hedione just with alcohol...
But in which concentrations?
Or is that the thing about creating a perfume - finding that percentage which is the sweet spot?
 

Suppressor

Well-known member
Dec 7, 2006
But for Hedione (HC) its not so much about the "smell" as such, more interesting is the activation of the pheromone receptor VN1R1. Which already works in minimal concentrations.

That's what I love about this topic, it's so obvious.
It became really obvious when he added pineapple accords to his order. :D
 

Big L

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
You should try to find the concentration that works for you, but it is a good idea to have some ballpark or a starting point.

In a "normal" perfume, using hedione for its effect, it will be around 0.5% of the final product, sometimes it can get much higher, like 2.5%. I would imagine in a hedione only perfume, 1-2% in alcohol will be a good place to start.
 

santeripe

Active member
Nov 28, 2021
That's what I love about this topic, it's so obvious.
It became really obvious when he added pineapple accords to his order. :D
Pineapple is my favorite fruit, I mainly love super minimalist transparent scents, and I've never found a fragrance that's too minimalist for me. That's all lol. Just trying to gather together everything I personally love and create something from them. I most love wearing fragrance all by myself after a shower.

Instead of synthetic pineapple, I'm thinking of going for a natural citrus opening. I've already made an amazing blend from mandarin, grapefruit and lime EOs. Interested to see how this'll perform on clothes/hair mixed with hedione!
 

Suppressor

Well-known member
Dec 7, 2006
You should try to find the concentration that works for you, but it is a good idea to have some ballpark or a starting point.

In a "normal" perfume, using hedione for its effect, it will be around 0.5% of the final product, sometimes it can get much higher, like 2.5%. I would imagine in a hedione only perfume, 1-2% in alcohol will be a good place to start.
2% seems to be really low, no?
How much Iso E does Molecule 01 have?

I would probably try a fantasy creation, with a 15% EDT concentration.

4% Hedione
6% Hedione HC
--- 10% Hedione

1,5% Ambrofix
1,5% Calone or cascalone
2% Bergamot

=== 15% concentration

Don't ask me how I come up with this, it's purely fantasy.
But I would like to smell it.
 

Big L

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
It is up to you of course to experiment and find what you like, this is what it's all about. Still, I believe you might be surprised by how little can go a very long way. Calone and Bergamot, for example, are usually not dosed at the same order of magnitude. For Calone 1.5% is probably at least 10 times (and to be honest, more like 100 times) more than what you would usually want to use.

You can have a look here to find the common concentrations for many ingredients: https://www.unguentarius.com/ingredient-statistics

It is often beneficial to go very far up or down from these common "comfort zones". Nevertheless, doing it out of well-informed intention, rather than unknowingly, can prevent a lot of frustration.
 

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