Pine Note

[cwf623]

I would like to add a pine note (preferably as a middle note) to a fragrance I am working on, but I'm reading some conflicting information, which is confusing. I was hoping you all could help clarify it for me. The pine essential oils I have looked at range from a top note to a base note. The scotch pine on the Perfumer's Apprentice site is listed as a base note, but then the pine oil on Perfumers World says it lasts 30 minutes on a smelling strip. Any recommendations for a good pine essential oil or building a good pine note/accord would be greatly appreciated. Some aroma chemicals I am thinking about using in it are terpinolene, nopyl acetate, cyclacet, and alpha & beta pinene. Thanks!

 

[David Ruskin]

Pine Needle oil, Juniper Berry oil (may have solubility problems), Cedarleaf oil, Cypress oil, Fir Balsam, Aldehyde C12 MNA, iso Bornyl Acetate, Labdanum oil, Cistus Abs., Fenchyl Acetate, Borneol, Verdoracine, Coniferan and Boisiris.

 

[cwf623]

Thank you David! I'll look into these and see which ones I can get my hands on.

 

[PurePerfume350]

Look here:

http://www.edenbotanicals.com/fir-balsam-absolute-10.html

It is really beautiful and complex,this oil alone smells like Norne by Slumberhouse (if you know that fragrance),woody pine vibe and it is a middle note like you wanted.
Oh and they also have that same oil undiluted if you would like.

 

[rynegne]

Check out fir absolute...I've had the best luck w/ that in creating a smokey pine type accord. Pinon resin is soluble in alcohol and is nice, a little dirtier than you're probably expecting though both in having to filter and in smell as it comes off as lightly dusty. David's other suggestions are spot on as always.

 

[Serg Ixygon]

Fir and Pine are different. Fir absolute is not a pine at all, imho. Isobornyl acetat can be a brick in a wall but it's uncertain coniferan. Camfen and Pinen are not bad but last SECONDS even not minutes.
There is a Pino Sylvestre fragrance where this pine note is evident and long lasting. The question- how they did it sure with AC...

 

[David Ruskin]

I don't care if they are the same or different; I care if they smell good and if they can be used to create a "Pine note", as was asked. I have used all of the ingredients mentioned (and more) to make a really super (not my opinion, but the opinion of many others) Pine fragrance for Jo Malone, called "Pine and Eucalyptus". It was sold every Christmas as a limited edition of Candle, Reed Diffuser and Spray. It sold out every year.

It matters not what you use, so long as the end result is what you want. I would not recommend Pinene or Camphene, however I would recommend those oils which contain them.

Aldehyde C12 lauric, Oakmoss, Evernyl, Sinocitral and Frescile should also be looked at.

 

[leathermountain]

Fir and Pine are different.

Could you please describe the difference?

 

[pkiler]

David, What do you think of Pinoacetaldehyde?

PK

 

[David Ruskin]

David, What do you think of Pinoacetaldehyde?

PK

I have used it occasionally and found it pleasant, although nothing special, to be honest. I don't think it is terribly stable, but I may be wrong about this. As you can tell, I'm somewhat indifferent to it.

 

[rynegne]

I thought about this more last night, if you're looking for a lighter pine that's crisp/clean and lemony without getting too much like surface cleanser vibrance...you might want a very very small amount of C12 MNA coupled with Somalian Frankincense and a touch of fir absolute.

 

[Chris Smith]

Hi cwf623, I'd recommend Siberian Fir (Abies sibirica) essential oil. This material is a 'choice' oil to use in perfumery. Hope this helps Regards, Chris

 

[Serg Ixygon]

Could you please describe the difference?

English is not my mother tonque, so, our US and British members can explain better why they call FIR different trees- Pseudotsuga, Abies, Picea but not Pine.
In two words, for me Fir is sweet and balsamic, Pine is camfora and green.

 

[cwf623]

Thanks everyone for the helpful replies. I can assure you that I will look into each of these suggestions. Amazing to me how much you can learn on these forums.

 

[David Ruskin]

English is not my mother tonque, so, our US and British members can explain better why they call FIR different trees- Pseudotsuga, Abies, Picea but not Pine.
In two words, for me Fir is sweet and balsamic, Pine is camfora and green.

The two species are different, and the smells are different, but they can both be used to create a fragrance that would be described as "Pine".

 

[Chris Bartlett]

David, What do you think of Pinoacetaldehyde?

PK

Just adding to David’s conclusions, I spent some time with a senior perfumer from IFF who sang the praises of this material (among others, all predictably enough, of IFF manufacture) and I was getting quite interested in it until I discovered the price: it’s nice, but not that nice was my conclusion and I have yet to buy any... which isn’t to say I never will, but so far no compelling use for it has come up.

 

[leathermountain]

for me Fir is sweet and balsamic, Pine is camfora and green.

This is what I meant, the smell difference. Thanks.

 

[leathermountain]

The two species are different, and the smells are different, but they can both be used to create a fragrance that would be described as "Pine".

That makes sense. Thanks.

What do you and others think of these as possible constituents of a pine note?
Cistus EO (is this the same as what you call labdanum oil?)
Atlas Cedar EO (no mention of leaves)
Clary Sage EO
Olibanum serrata Absolute India (I'm not sure how the regional names map onto the species names, or if they do, so I can't tell if this should be similar to the frankincense that rynegne mentions)
Lavender EO (depending on how it smells -- I know there are a range of cultivars and crosses)

 

[pkiler]

Just adding to David’s conclusions, I spent some time with a senior perfumer from IFF who sang the praises of this material (among others, all predictably enough, of IFF manufacture) and I was getting quite interested in it until I discovered the price: it’s nice, but not that nice was my conclusion and I have yet to buy any... which isn’t to say I never will, but so far no compelling use for it has come up.

Yes, It is quite expensive indeed...

The best use I may have for it is a Schiff base.

PK

 

[David Ruskin]

This is what I meant, the smell difference. Thanks.

But both can be used to create a "Pine".

 

[David Ruskin]

That makes sense. Thanks.

What do you and others think of these as possible constituents of a pine note?
Cistus EO (is this the same as what you call labdanum oil?)
Atlas Cedar EO (no mention of leaves)
Clary Sage EO
Olibanum serrata Absolute India (I'm not sure how the regional names map onto the species names, or if they do, so I can't tell if this should be similar to the frankincense that rynegne mentions)
Lavender EO (depending on how it smells -- I know there are a range of cultivars and crosses)

If you just use these, I doubt if you will produce a very good Pine, although you may make a very good fragrance base.

 

[DrSmellThis]

I've also struggled with finding the best piney notes. I have a lot to learn still, as I feel like there is some material I haven't tried that will be my holy grail of pine. If anyone knows, please share, ha ha.

Having said that, I will mention that I think black spruce is an under appreciated material for perfumery. I think it has some "universal perfuming" characteristics, perhaps a bit "sexier" than some other piney notes, complex and balanced. It's not for every perfume. I have yet to smell anything that matches the pine needles I smell walking through the woods.

Juniper is also a special material, though I have had solubility problems with it, as David mentions. I haven't figured out the best solvent to use.

(Edit: The other suggestions here seem like good ones)

 

[David Ruskin]

Fresh Juniper Berry oil will dissolve in ethanol with no problems. As it ages it becomes less and less soluble. Try chilling and filtering as you go, it may help.

I don't think that there is one "holy grail" of Pine. It is a question of the right combination of things, each one of which, on its own, may not smell like Pine, but when put together, does. A mixture of Green, Aldehydic, Resinous and Woody. I have not mentioned the dry woody aspect of Pine; Norlimbanol, Vertenex, Cedramber; and so on.

 

[leathermountain]

But both can be used to create a "Pine".

I understand. The quotation marks help distinguish between two senses of the word pine: the constructed note versus the common name for a botanical grouping and its associated smells.

If you just use these, I doubt if you will produce a very good Pine, although you may make a very good fragrance base.

Hm, maybe I'll try to make said very good fragrance base instead. Searching under the lamppost...

 

[Dmitriy]

Here are mentioned the many different conifers materials .. Which ones have a more green, fresh scent without too many camphor ..? AC more and naturals too..

 

[cwf623]

Look here:

http://www.edenbotanicals.com/fir-balsam-absolute-10.html

It is really beautiful and complex,this oil alone smells like Norne by Slumberhouse (if you know that fragrance),woody pine vibe and it is a middle note like you wanted.
Oh and they also have that same oil undiluted if you would like.

I received the fir balsam absolute yesterday (thanks for the suggestion) and it is like sticking your head in a Christmas tree. Very beautiful smell that I think in a small amount will add a great facet to the pine note I'm building.

 

[cwf623]

Speaking of the fir balsam absolute, I just tried to dilute it and ran into a problem. I heated in a warm water bath for about 20 minutes, but when I tried to get it out of the bottle it was a very thick tar and impossible to transfer, much less dilute. I did unscrew the cap slightly when heating. Any ideas from anyone on how to fix this? I've tried to heat for a longer period of time and increased the temp, but it's not budging. Thinking I might have to chalk this one up to a rookie mistake of some sort on my part.

 

[I.D.Adam]

Which diluent are you using?

 

[cwf623]

Which diluent are you using?

Perfumers alcohol, but the absolute was so thick I couldn't get it out of the container to attempt to dilute it. It was the consistency of a thick tar.

 

[pkiler]

Warmer.... but it's still messy...

 

[Toujours Mink]

Perfumers alcohol, but the absolute was so thick I couldn't get it out of the container to attempt to dilute it. It was the consistency of a thick tar.

I used a small, clean, screwdriver to dig it out of the jar, and then stirred it into warmed alcohol until I had added the proper weight to the alcohol. It did take a while.

 

[I.D.Adam]

Yes, just use a small spatula-like tool (you can get them at a hobby store) and place it into the vial. You'll have to smear it into the side of the jar, then weigh, add the appropriate amount of alcohol and shake for all your worth for a little while and your good. You can warm the alcohol, very carefully, as Paul suggested to speed things up a bit if you like.

 

[jfrater]

Arcadi mentions these novel chemicals you may want to try: methyl cyclocitron- herbal, dry leaves, dry fallen pine needles.

Aranone-4 green natural pine notes

 

[cwf623]

Thanks for the suggestions...I'll give it another try using them.

I appreciate the info Jamie.

 

['Timon]

if you are looking for a lasting pine note: Verbenol Bedoukian and especially Cedanol Extra (Arbanol). Chemically this is "Bornyl ethylene glycol ether". Perhaps also Isobornyl isobutyrate (slightly longer lasting than the acetate)

 

['Timon]

and regarding Pinoacetaldehyde: An old but excellent material. It's good to see it being promoted in IFF formulas, so I guess it won't be discontinued. It's very powerful so why complain about the prize ?
But I don't consider it a pine note. The name stems from the chemistry only. There is also Pinoisobutyraldehyde, it's softer and longer lasting.

 

[cwf623]

Great info...thanks 'Timon.

 

[benjwi02]

Hey David, I know this is an old post but I have a question and would rather refer to this thread as it gives lots of information. After looking over the balance of ingredient (green, aldehydic, resinous, woody) I had a couple details in question--
1. Thoughts about using Bois Des Landes Robertet in a pine base accord?
2. You say green... are you referring to the freshness of something like pine needle EO or rather the mossy aspects of the wood(evernyl, oakmoss) or something else completely?
3. Would you recommend both C-12 MNA and Lauric for the accord?
Just a couple small detail clarifications, the rest seems pretty logical though. Thanks for all the help on the DIY

 

[pkiler]

Hey David, I know this is an old post but I have a question and would rather refer to this thread as it gives lots of information. After looking over the balance of ingredient (green, aldehydic, resinous, woody) I had a couple details in question--
1. Thoughts about using Bois Des Landes Robertet in a pine base accord?
2. You say green... are you referring to the freshness of something like pine needle EO or rather the mossy aspects of the wood(evernyl, oakmoss) or something else completely?
3. Would you recommend both C-12 MNA and Lauric for the accord?
Just a couple small detail clarifications, the rest seems pretty logical though. Thanks for all the help on the DIY

Will, David Ruskin doesn't reply here anymore.
If I may, i'll respond some thoughts.

"Pine" is often not so about the wood, but about the freshness of the needles, based on limonene.
"Pine EO" is not the wood, but the needles distilled.
It is poor practice for there not to be proper identification of the source material in essential oils sold to the masses.

Pine wood distillation is rare, and the only one is as you mentioned, the Bois de landes pine and cedar codistillation. It is quite smoky however.

So, to dig under your question, you must decide what aspects of "Pine" you wish to work out and highlight, as the "green" is not really from the wood, but the needles.

 

[benjwi02]

Will, David Ruskin doesn't reply here anymore.
If I may, i'll respond some thoughts.

"Pine" is often not so about the wood, but about the freshness of the needles, based on limonene.
"Pine EO" is not the wood, but the needles distilled.
It is poor practice for there not to be proper identification of the source material in essential oils sold to the masses.

Pine wood distillation is rare, and the only one is as you mentioned, the Bois de landes pine and cedar codistillation. It is quite smoky however.

So, to dig under your question, you must decide what aspects of "Pine" you wish to work out and highlight, as the "green" is not really from the wood, but the needles.

Yes yes I understand, makes sense.

I just wasn't sure what he meant by the green aspects-- that can refer to leaves, to stems, to herbaceous, etc. I assumed he meant the pine needles. I know that the pine EO Is from the needles, and as such it probably doesn't last very long.
Thanks for the assistance Paul. I am going for an overall blend of notes to make a pine/coniferous/woodsy vertical accord for a cologne type, which will have grapefruit in the top notes with an elegant Minnesota North Woods type of drydown. Pine has a deep meaning of home to me.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk