Pierre Bourdon & Creed - any new information ?

CHSeifert

Basenotes Dependent
Sep 2, 2011
I just smelled a sample of Creeds Orange Spice, and this does it for me :shocked:

There definitely is something highly suspicious about the relationship between Creed and Pierre Bourdon - no way around this :vrolijk_1:

Either Bourdon is very good at copying Creed frags or Creed is not telling us the truth about who makes their frags.

Creed Orange Spice most definitely to my nose share a lot of the same notes with YSL Kouros, as many know Pierre Bourdon was the nose behind YSL Kouros.

Creed GIT most definitely to my nose share a lot of the same notes with Davidoff Cool Water, as many know Pierre Bourdon was the nose behind Cool Water.

Creed Original Santal most definitely share a lot of the same notes with Mont Blanc Individuel, as many know Pierre Bourdon was the nose behind Mont Blanc Individuel.

This is 3 frags that CLEARLY smell very similar to 3 Creed frags.

To my nose they are this close:
Original Santal is 95% close to Mont Blanc Individuel.
GIT is 90% close to Cool Water.
Orange Spice is 85% close to Kouros.

I believe the use of more natural ingredients in the 3 Creeds leads to the more natural less synthetic smell of them compared to the 3 cheaper designer frags, which all smell more synthetic to my nose.

But this does not change the fact, that it's really really weird that a master genus perfumer like Pierre Bourdon comes up with 3 designer frags, that all share a LOT of similarities with 3 Creed frags.

1 is a coincidence, 2 is a bit weird - 3 is just too evident.

This is NOT a coincidence - I believe Pierre Bourdon has worked for Creed, but contractual obligations means he can't reveal any facts about this relationship.
This is all speculation - but for Pierre Bourdon to make 3 frags that all are that close to 3 Creeds just tells me there is something rotten in the state of Denmark :wink:

What do you think :tekst-toppie:
 

Joe C

Basenotes Junkie
Dec 6, 2011
Guess we will never know. Anyway I also think Creed Vanisia bears a strong resemblance to Chanel Egoiste too.
 

CHSeifert

Basenotes Dependent
Sep 2, 2011
Guess we will never know. Anyway I also think Creed Vanisia bears a strong resemblance to Chanel Egoiste too.

I don't know this Creed, but Jacque Polge's Egoiste is my 3-rd fav Chanel frag after Platinum and Allure Homme :)

Always nice to speculate a little bit though :)
 

MonkeyBars

Basenotes Dependent
May 18, 2011
Pierre Bourdon was the nose behind Green Irish Tweed according to what I've read, so that cuts your theory's evidence by 33%...
 

Bigsly

Basenotes Institution
Feb 20, 2008
It's very common for the same perfumer to do very similar frags with different companies, apparently tweeking the formula, working with a different budget, or just following client wishes, I'd guess. That said, I don't remember GIT being particularly similar to CW, though I agree with the other two (and I haven't sampled GIT in a very long time).
 

Buzzlepuff

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 27, 2005
The only thing odd about it is that Mr. Bourdon has not said anything about it. Nor has anyone at Creed.

You would think he would have denied the speculations, or confirmed, maybe qualified the rumors, or made some comment about it. He is retired now. Somebody should contact him for an interview to find out the truth of these supposed commonalities. It would be good project for an enterprising perfume blogger, I would think.

I have always fantasized that it is probably a more complicated connection than what is apparent. This is pure speculation on my part, but . . . Both Orange Spice and Green Irish Tweed were supposedly old Creed formulas that were used in the perfuming of leather for gloves and leather apparel. It could be that Pierre Bourdon worked as an apprentice at Roure Bertrand and worked with a group of perfumers given the task of converting the Royal approved leather fragrance formulas into perfumes. This may have been done with the complete agreement that Creed would retain the ownership of the formula and have it protected by contracts that would prevent any mention of work he did. After being confronted with just how wonderful the perfumes were, he went on to do very similar, and even slightly improved versions of this work for another fragrance firm that created Cool Water and Kouros. These corporate entities might have denied and hushed up any connection for fear of lawsuit by Creed for violation of their ownership of a particular formula. The success of Davidoff and YSL would be a juicy lawsuit if a violation of design patent occurred. The formulas are probably different enough to claim they are new creations. It is probably a fine line to cross and there is possibly some resentment still there. But, it is still quite strange that not even other knowledgeable perfumers who work for these firms have not spilled the beans so to speak.
 

Bigsly

Basenotes Institution
Feb 20, 2008
Buzzlepuff: I don't think it's strange by perfume industry standards, from what I can tell, just by the standards of all other industries! LOL.
 

CHSeifert

Basenotes Dependent
Sep 2, 2011
Pierre Bourdon was the nose behind Green Irish Tweed according to what I've read, so that cuts your theory's evidence by 33%...

According to what you've read.....ha...ha...ha - nice source you got there :)

I've also read that the world will go under in 7 days - so you also think it will do that now ?

Of course I've also read that Bourdon made GIT for Creed, but according to Creed he didn't - they make all their frags themselves !
This is the whole point of this thread for goodness sake !
 

MonkeyBars

Basenotes Dependent
May 18, 2011
According to what you've read.....ha...ha...ha - nice source you got there :)

My source: Perfumes: The A-Z Guide review of Green Irish Tweed on pp. 289-290. Luca Turin, a well-established and successful perfume writer and critic, states unequivocally that it was composed by Pierre Bourdon in 1985.
 

CHSeifert

Basenotes Dependent
Sep 2, 2011
My source: Perfumes: The A-Z Guide review of Green Irish Tweed on pp. 289-290. Luca Turin, a well-established and successful perfume writer and critic, states unequivocally that it was composed by Pierre Bourdon in 1985.

Luca Turin has no evidence of this claim at all.
Bourdon and Oliver Creed are friends. So friends talk and exchange ideas.

Oliver Creed claims he 120% made GIT on his own.
I doubt it; you doubt it; Turin doubts it - my whole point of this thread is that Bourdon may have had a good deal to do with creating these 3 Creed frags, but no where and no one can prove this. Luca Turin writing in a book, that Bourdon made GIT still does not make it a fact :)

As long as Creed claim they made it, Bourdon will never get credit where credit is due, which is a shame in my opinion :(
 

derekp

Super Member
Dec 7, 2007
It occurred to me that there may be a confidentiality agreement or something of that nature in place. Bourdon already gets a ton of well-deserved acclaim without the credit for these....doubt he is concerned.
 

CHSeifert

Basenotes Dependent
Sep 2, 2011
I'll agree on Orange Spice and Kouros, and OS and Individuel, but I really don't think GIT and CW are that close.

To my nose the topnotes and opening of GIT and Cool Water are 95% a like. Heart notes and dry down of GIT is quite a bit different compared to Cool Water, that I agree to :)
 

Jabel

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 22, 2009
My source: Perfumes: The A-Z Guide review of Green Irish Tweed on pp. 289-290. Luca Turin, a well-established and successful perfume writer and critic, states unequivocally that it was composed by Pierre Bourdon in 1985.

Luca Turin also has gone on record as saying he dislikes CREED for their "lack of originality". From what I've been told from corporate is that when Oliver made GIT he consulted Bourdon for his opinion on the fragrance as a friend and that Bourdon had no actual involvement on the fragrance.
 

KMF

Basenotes Dependent
Aug 25, 2007
Didn't Bourdon also suggest the gunpowder note in Himalaya to Oliver Creed (or so the story goes)? When you consider that the scents mentioned are at least somewhat similar, along with the fact that (to my knowledge) Bourdon or Creed never spoke about these similarities (I find it hard to believe that Basenoters are the only ones that are curious about these things), my hypothesis is that Bourdon did in fact at the very least co-create these scents. In exchange for his work, he got paid handsomely, but had to sign a confidentiality agreement and could not take any credit for their creation. In exchange for signing the confidentiality agreement, he was allowed to create similar, but not not exact copies of these scents, but only after the originals were on the market for a certain number of years.
 

Surfacing

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 6, 2002
Didn't Bourdon also suggest the gunpowder note in Himalaya to Oliver Creed (or so the story goes)? When you consider that the scents mentioned are at least somewhat similar, along with the fact that (to my knowledge) Bourdon or Creed never spoke about these similarities (I find it hard to believe that Basenoters are the only ones that are curious about these things), my hypothesis is that Bourdon did in fact at the very least co-create these scents. In exchange for his work, he got paid handsomely, but had to sign a confidentiality agreement and could not take any credit for their creation. In exchange for signing the confidentiality agreement, he was allowed to create similar, but not not exact copies of these scents, but only after the originals were on the market for a certain number of years.

Good post KMF and I would have to agree.

Saying Bourdon had a hand in creating those fragrances for Creed doesn't make a Creed a bad company for goodness sakes people !
 

the_good_life

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Jun 2, 2006
Creed has admitted that Bourdon contributed to the creation of GIT: "GIT was wholly composed by Olivier Creed but there were discussions with Bourdon on certain elements like as in Himalaya for example. "
http://www.basenotes.net/threads/210894-Erwin-Creed-on-phone

I assume this is their way of saying Bourdon more or less engineered GIT upon Creed's brief :D. It is hard to imagine that a perfumer of Bourdon's stature would "steal" Creed's GIT formula to do CW. I would imagine that someone well acquainted with Bourdon's work could easily tell whether his handwriting is on the GIT formula? I think the OS - Kouros - Bourdon connection is likely. I also give more creedence to the data of Edwards and Osmotheque than to company PR. When Edwards says Bourdon he has the facts to back that claim up. when Osmothèque dates RSL 1975 they will have good reason to do so. The evidence suggests that's the year Creed became a perfume house.

Luca Turin has no evidence of this claim at all.
Bourdon and Oliver Creed are friends. So friends talk and exchange ideas.

Oliver Creed claims he 120% made GIT on his own.
I doubt it; you doubt it; Turin doubts it - my whole point of this thread is that Bourdon may have had a good deal to do with creating these 3 Creed frags, but no where and no one can prove this. Luca Turin writing in a book, that Bourdon made GIT still does not make it a fact :)

As long as Creed claim they made it, Bourdon will never get credit where credit is due, which is a shame in my opinion :(
 

MOONB

Banned
Nov 5, 2009
The link between Cool Water and GIT is tenuous at best. Frankly I don't think the two scents resemble each other enough to warrant the consideration that they have the exact same perfumer behind them. Surprised so many here think they do. It seems likely that Bourdon had words with Olivier and made some suggestions, gave his opinion on samples, etc. But Cool Water just veers into a completely different direction than GIT. At best, Cool Water comes across as the "EDT version" of GIT, with some major changes to the basic scent profile. I think the better one gets to know GIT, the less one finds any similarities to Cool Water, and the whole Bourdon/Creed controversy recedes significantly. It's amusing also how this controversy gets drummed up to sway public opinion away from lending Creed credit where credit is due - in coming up with the real masculine perfumery game-changer, years before Davidoff. They should be given this credence for Millesime Imperial, too.

The Orange Spice/Kouros connection is a little more believable in my mind, if only because the opening of Orange Spice is like Kouros on steroids. Again, like GIT/CW, Orange Spice and Kouros veer off into totally different directions after the first three minutes. But those three minutes are VERY close, and the shot of civet in each matches the "dirty citrus" profile perfectly. Perhaps Bourdon helped reformulate Orange Spice at some point. Given that the scent is apparently of '50s vintage (if Creed is to believed - can anyone provide evidence to the contrary?), Bourdon would not have been involved in the original formula at all.
 

MonkeyBars

Basenotes Dependent
May 18, 2011
The link between Cool Water and GIT is tenuous at best. Frankly I don't think the two scents resemble each other enough to warrant the consideration that they have the exact same perfumer behind them. Surprised so many here think they do. It seems likely that Bourdon had words with Olivier and made some suggestions, gave his opinion on samples, etc. But Cool Water just veers into a completely different direction than GIT. At best, Cool Water comes across as the "EDT version" of GIT, with some major changes to the basic scent profile.

I think that a modern nose would not notice the connection as much as one would have back in the 80s. At that time, there were hardly any dihydromyrcenol overdoses on the market. Drakkar Noir pioneered it, GIT kicked it up another notch, then Cool Water made it palatable for the masses. Now there are literally hundreds of fragrances that fill the gaps between them, but back in the mid 80s that was all terra incognita. From a historical olfactory perspective, they are very closely linked indeed.
 

MOONB

Banned
Nov 5, 2009
I think that a modern nose would not notice the connection as much as one would have back in the 80s. At that time, there were hardly any dihydromyrcenol overdoses on the market. Drakkar Noir pioneered it, GIT kicked it up another notch, then Cool Water made it palatable for the masses. Now there are literally hundreds of fragrances that fill the gaps between them, but back in the mid 80s that was all terra incognita. From a historical olfactory perspective, they are very closely linked indeed.

In this sense, yes. But I do think the whole dihydromyrcenol end of things gets a little overstated, too.
 

MonkeyBars

Basenotes Dependent
May 18, 2011
the opening of Orange Spice is like Kouros on steroids.

Never tried it, but I imagine "Kouros on steroids" and images of men in hazmat suits in a clean-room carefully measuring micrograms of highly dangerous toxins flash through my mind. Thankfully, some reviewers describe it as mild-mannered, smoother and lighter than Kouros, or else I might have to completely revise my view of humanity, and probably reality, as the existence of something stronger than Kouros strains the bounds of the universe as I conceive it.
 
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MOONB

Banned
Nov 5, 2009
Never tried it, but I imagine "Kouros on steroids" and images of men in hazmat suits in a clean room carefully measuring micrograms of highly dangerous toxins flash through my mind. Thankfully, some reviewers describe it as mild-mannered, smoother and lighter than Kouros, or else I might have to completely revise my view of humanity, and probably reality, as the existence of something stronger than Kouros strains the bounds of the universe as I conceive it.

Ha!

Yeah the civet in Orange Spice transcends that of Kouros considerably, perhaps because it's the real deal, or a much better facsimile. Also, the citrus notes are much cleaner and brighter, with cool clove notes adding to the "fresh" end of the stick.

Ultimately, the drydown is much different. Basically just a light oriental of orange zest, clove, and ambergris with the shadow of all that came before it lurking in the wings.

Kouros, on the other hand, turns into a honey/wildflower/incense fougere with considerable strength.
 

Surfacing

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 6, 2002
...
The Orange Spice/Kouros connection is a little more believable in my mind, if only because the opening of Orange Spice is like Kouros on steroids. Again, like GIT/CW, Orange Spice and Kouros veer off into totally different directions after the first three minutes. But those three minutes are VERY close, and the shot of civet in each matches the "dirty citrus" profile perfectly. Perhaps Bourdon helped reformulate Orange Spice at some point. Given that the scent is apparently of '50s vintage (if Creed is to believed - can anyone provide evidence to the contrary?), Bourdon would not have been involved in the original formula at all.

:undecided:.....I feel that Orange Spice and Kouros are less similar in the opening, but the resemblance comes in the dry down.... The opening of Orange Spice has orange and clove. I think Kouros may have those notes too....I may have seen them in a pyramid for it ( not on Basenotes). But Kouros doesn't have the zestyness of the orange. Also, the clove comes out nicer in Orange Spice. Basically, Orange Spice seems like a more refined Kouros, with a much better opening set of notes.

I also think it is unfair to say that "...can anyone provide evidence to the contrary?.." . Come on. This fragrances sure as heck does not smell like it was made in the 1950s ( more so the dry down).
 
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MOONB

Banned
Nov 5, 2009
:undecided:.....I feel that Orange Spice and Kouros are less similar in the opening, but the resemblance comes in the dry down.... The opening of Orange Spice has orange and clove. I think Kouros may have those notes too....I may have seen them in a pyramid for it ( not on Basenotes). But Kouros doesn't have the zestyness of the orange. Also, the clove comes out nicer in Orange Spice. Basically, Orange Spice seems like a more refined Kouros, with a much better opening set of notes.

I also think it is unfair to say that "...can anyone provide evidence to the contrary?.." . Come on. This fragrances sure as heck does not smell like it was made in the 1950s ( more so the dry down).

The problem is that the citrus and civet is shared by both Kouros and Orange Spice. However, pronounced clove and orange with ambergris is unique to the Creed, and with the exception of clove, not found in the YSL scent at all. This is why I feel the openings are similar. I did a side-by-side sniff test about two weeks ago and found them to be remarkably similar in the first few minutes, mainly due to the civet with the citrus. Then, they parted ways.

As for Orange Spice smelling like it comes from the '50s, . . . why would it not? Was there some sort of written law sixty years ago that forbade strong animalic musks in masculine perfumes?

I happen to have a bottle of Max Factor Signature for Men, which is vintage and from the '50s. It is in excellent condition, as it was excavated from a very dark, cool wall closet in a friend's house. This guy is in his seventies and needed me to help him clean out, so he gave it to me.

The only two scents that I own that can match its musk component are Kouros, and Orange Spice. Nothing else comes close.
 

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