Perfume. Archaeology

msaintdizier

Basenotes Member
Jan 28, 2019
After mixing concentrate wait 15 days minimum and add alcohol with fixative in french vintage way. For 100 ml of alcohol u can add 2 grammes of fixateur 505 at 5% and 2 grammes of Tonquitone at 3 % and for a leather effect civet tincture at 5%....
 

msaintdizier

Basenotes Member
Jan 28, 2019
After mixing concentrate wait 15 days minimum and add alcohol with fixative in french vintage way. For 100 ml of alcohol u can add 2 grammes of fixateur 505 at 5% and 2 grammes of Tonquitone at 3 % and for a leather effect civet tincture at 5%....
Add tincture (french say infusion) to the final product increase projection sillage and fixation...
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
Jamie Frater (I'm pretty sure it was him) published a Nuit de Noel formula that has a lot of similarity to this one, including shittons of floral absolutes, mousse de saxe base, ionone, nitromusks. I made this up a while back using the mousse de saxe base sold by Perfumer's Supply House (supposed to be the DeLaire version, not Symrise), and it works well.
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
Symrise version is much more powerfull.
Interesting that you say this, as in admittedly very superficial experiments, I have found the version obtained from Perfumer's Supply House purporting to be the DeLaire version to be more powerful than the Symrise (bought from Liaison Carbone). But this is, as I say, probably a superficial understanding. Based on smelling strip experiments, I think the one from PSH has a lot of nitromusks in it, while I don't think the Symrise has any (at least as currently sold).
 

RomanB

Super Member
Oct 22, 2022
Jamie Frater (I'm pretty sure it was him) published a Nuit de Noel formula that has a lot of similarity to this one, including shittons of floral absolutes, mousse de saxe base, ionone, nitromusks. I made this up a while back using the mousse de saxe base sold by Perfumer's Supply House (supposed to be the DeLaire version, not Symrise), and it works well.
Do you have Jamie's formula? I cannot find it.
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
OK, here's my version:

Bergamot 35
Clary sage eo 10
Ylang extra (Eden Botanicals) 35
Jasmin sambac abs (Aftelier) 20
Rose abs (Eden "trilogy") 10
Neroli base (Pell Wall) 5
Iralia 70
Carnation abs (White Lotus) 25
Jasmin 231 60
Rose petals (Robertet) 120
Beyond lilyflore 100
Saxony Thyme (PSH) 400
Vanillin 20
Labdanum ("clear", PA) 25
Santal (Eden "plantation") 40
Musk ketone 12
Musk ambrette 12

This is a VERY heavy frag that lies close to the skin.
 
Nov 10, 2022
This is a very interesting discussion. I'd like to know the process of mixing 'in the vintage French way'. Let compound macerate 15 days then combine with alcohol, pre-mixed with the fixative?
 

msaintdizier

Basenotes Member
Jan 28, 2019
This is a very interesting discussion. I'd like to know the process of mixing 'in the vintage French way'. Let compound macerate 15 days then combine with alcohol, pre-mixed with the fixative?
When there are a lot of naturals 1 month is better when there are chemicals 15 days is ok. Then when u add the concentrate to the alcohol u can add fixative. After it is even better to shake the perfume 1 hour a day for 1 month. The easiest way is to use a magnetic stirrer. The perfume industry in France use stainless steel stirring tanks.
 

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pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
Any MDS product that you buy from Symrise today has been Disneyfied to be IFRA compliant. When I begged Symrise several years ago for a MDS sample to sniff only, they had to dig around for old stock, and said that if I wanted to actually buy any, it would need to be reformulated. Kevin's MDS version formula sold at PSH is made indeed from the old De Laire formula, rescued from the trashcan, when Symrise threw them all away. Kevin was working at Symrise then.

But, I need to say that the vintage formulas are not just ONE formula. MDS is an idea, it is a pattern, and has many variations, even in vintage formulas / formulations. Don't get hung up that there is only one formula. Vintage bases formulas were changed to adapt to different needs of perfumes that utilized them.
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
Any MDS product that you buy from Symrise today has been Disneyfied to be IFRA compliant. When I begged Symrise several years ago for a MDS sample to sniff only, they had to dig around for old stock, and said that if I wanted to actually buy any, it would need to be reformulated. Kevin's MDS version formula sold at PSH is made indeed from the old De Laire formula, rescued from the trashcan, when Symrise threw them all away. Kevin was working at Symrise then.

But, I need to say that the vintage formulas are not just ONE formula. MDS is an idea, it is a pattern, and has many variations, even in vintage formulas / formulations. Don't get hung up that there is only one formula. Vintage bases formulas were changed to adapt to different needs of perfumes that utilized them.
Kevin's version of the DeLaire MdS definitely is almost a complete perfume on its own & works great in the Frater Noel de Nuit formula at 40%!
 

pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
Kevin's version of the DeLaire MdS definitely is almost a complete perfume on its own & works great in the Frater Noel de Nuit formula at 40%!
I haven't smelled the newly released Symrise MDS. But I have compared Kevin's with the older stock sample of MDS that I received from Symrise.
Kevin's is different and fuller.

Even though I have many vintage formula versions of MDS, I have never worried about making something for PSH to sell. I would only do so if something happened to Kevin's product. There is no need to take anything away from Kevin. :)
 

Alex F.

Basenotes Junkie
Nov 29, 2019
Since we're talking Caron, if anyone has example formulas for Yatagan, I'd be super interested.
I'd be interested in that, too. I don't really like these spicy aldehydic chypres, but they were very influential, so I want to study them at some point. So far, regarding ideas for the general structure, this is the best starting point I have: Henri-Michel Hoffmann, "Chypre". Perfumer & Flavorist, vol. 10, April/May 1985. (That's assuming we're talking about the old Yatagan.)
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
I'd be interested in that, too. I don't really like these spicy aldehydic chypres, but they were very influential, so I want to study them at some point. So far, regarding ideas for the general structure, this is the best starting point I have: Henri-Michel Hoffmann, "Chypre". Perfumer & Flavorist, vol. 10, April/May 1985. (That's assuming we're talking about the old Yatagan.)
These are very interesting formulas & definitely related in a lot of ways to my chypre formula I posted in another thread a week or so ago.
 

pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
Since we're talking Caron, if anyone has example formulas for Yatagan, I'd be super interested.
The complex weaving of herbal tops is hard to suss out if you just read a GCMS for Yatagan, there are so many naturals that overlap constituents.
 

jfrater

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Jun 2, 2005
I am now selling Mousse de Saxe (the original version) as Saxon Moss on Fraterworks and it is the original base in its entirety minus the musk xylene so it is IFRA compliant to 16.5% so you can use a LOT. It is expensive because I am keeping to the true original formula so it has a lot of mysore sandalwood, many other naturals, and is constructed with all the original sub-bases intact (many of which are also very costly with orris materials, etc). It is absolutely beautiful. I even use the special grade of IBQ from Symrise.
 

msaintdizier

Basenotes Member
Jan 28, 2019
Very positive and brilliant man. Congratulations from Paris. I like ur way
Very positive and brilliant man. Congratulations from Paris. I like ur way
Some years ago when u start i was one of the first to read ur blog. U was publishing freely ur work. I have many many of ur formulas in my private desktop. A nose for egoist etc... But i respect the work of other and i never publish it. Maybe u can share something in Instagram it is Just an advice. Bonne journée my friend
 

jfrater

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Jun 2, 2005
Very positive and brilliant man. Congratulations from Paris. I like ur way

Some years ago when u start i was one of the first to read ur blog. U was publishing freely ur work. I have many many of ur formulas in my private desktop. A nose for egoist etc... But i respect the work of other and i never publish it. Maybe u can share something in Instagram it is Just an advice. Bonne journée my friend
I'd be more than happy to make a contribution to your instagram in some way. Email me if you like and we can discuss. jamie@frater.com
 

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