Perceptability And Power of My Formula

mkturker

Well-known member
May 11, 2014
Hi dear Basenoters. I have a question about my formula's power and diffusion problem.

I prepared a formula before and it was very diffusive, very long lasting and has sillage (IMO), but I didn't like the top note and so I decided to change something at top. I changed something but the new formula hasn't got enough power and diffusion as I wanted but it has more sweetness.

I used different from the first formula Iso e super(At first Timbersilk and Sylvamber % 50-50), Galaxolide at % 7(At first Romandolide), Allyl Amyl Glucolate% 0.3(New added), Clary Sage% 0.5(New added) and Neroli Natural% 3(New added).

But the last formula is very weak and slight. It has no diffusion, it can't be percepted unless anyone get very closer to me etc. I smelled the top note alone and it is diffusive and powerfull. I used the same top note with the last basenote (The whole formula was powerfull) but it is same about power and diffusion, very weak and slight.

But what is the thing different?

What may the problem be?

How can I overcome it?
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
Can you provide the exact formula of each version, reporting each material as percent of formula? This is the best way to get specific feedback.
 

Bkkorn

Well-known member
Feb 21, 2020
Asking for help to diagnose a formula without actually showing us the full formula ....

Is like asking an auto mechanic to find out why your car is making a certain noise, but not be willing to bring in the car for him to look at it.

I'm afriad you won't get much help.
 

Bill Roberts

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2013
As a general way to solve your problem:

1) Go back to your original formula and verify that it really does perform as you now believe it did

2) Make up a mix that contains everything that is staying constant between the good formula and the problem one. This is to save time in the next steps.

3) Make formulas that are the same as the good formula except for one single change. You can use the above from step 2 to provide most of that.

4) If need be make versions with progressively more changes.

In other words, you can smell for yourself what changes are causing what effects.

If wishing to learn Perfuming, this way is also more productive towards that than is being handed an answer.
 

mkturker

Well-known member
May 11, 2014
As a general way to solve your problem:

1) Go back to your original formula and verify that it really does perform as you now believe it did

2) Make up a mix that contains everything that is staying constant between the good formula and the problem one. This is to save time in the next steps.

3) Make formulas that are the same as the good formula except for one single change. You can use the above from step 2 to provide most of that.

4) If need be make versions with progressively more changes.

In other words, you can smell for yourself what changes are causing what effects.

If wishing to learn Perfuming, this way is also more productive towards that than is being handed an answer.

I didn't understand the 2. step. Can you expand it, please?
 

mkturker

Well-known member
May 11, 2014
The first formula is very powerfull but the others are not. What is the problem?


I think, it may be because of

1-reducing the ratio of sylvamber and timbersilk
2- Because of using galaxolide
3-Because of clary sage, neroli or allyl amyl glucolate
4-Because of DPG with Galaxolide
5- Because of using Iso E Super instead of only Timbersilk-Sylvamber Mix.
Note: The galaxolide is solved with DPG and 2. and 3. formula include DPG same with Galaxolide.
 

Jolieo

Well-known member
Feb 18, 2018
I can’t make your formula(s) in my head- and I won’t in real life, barely make my own - but my two cents:
I once put together a formula, not keeping very good notes- I did weigh, but the weights were probably off by 10% either way because it was a cheap scale, measuring tiny amounts and I didn’t realize that the school would auto correct when measuring similar amounts. Anyway- I didn’t believe I would like the end result- but I really did. Then in a fit of overconfidence, I ruined it by adding- and even knowing exactly what went into it, and sort of amounts, I tried remaking it six more times-to no avail-at that point the memory of what it smelled like had faded, and I gave up-

If I were you-remake the one you like- just as Bill says:remove or change just one thing at a time
Too many changes and you have a completely different formula-that does it’s own thing
 

Bill Roberts

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2013
I didn't understand the 2. step. Can you expand it, please?

The idea of it is that rather than have to make every variant (one that differs only in ingredient A, say Iso-E Super vs Sylvamber, another differing only in ingredient B, etc) from scratch, you can make up a base formula that has everything that's always in common for your formulas.

That way when trying variants you have a huge head start.

Also it may aid your personal analysis having this simpler starting point for a reference.
 

mkturker

Well-known member
May 11, 2014
I can’t make your formula(s) in my head- and I won’t in real life, barely make my own - but my two cents:
I once put together a formula, not keeping very good notes- I did weigh, but the weights were probably off by 10% either way because it was a cheap scale, measuring tiny amounts and I didn’t realize that the school would auto correct when measuring similar amounts. Anyway- I didn’t believe I would like the end result- but I really did. Then in a fit of overconfidence, I ruined it by adding- and even knowing exactly what went into it, and sort of amounts, I tried remaking it six more times-to no avail-at that point the memory of what it smelled like had faded, and I gave up-

If I were you-remake the one you like- just as Bill says:remove or change just one thing at a time
Too many changes and you have a completely different formula-that does it’s own thing
As I wrote before, the top note is powerfull adequately.The first one was more but the others are too for perception of their power. But when I blend the top note with second and third base notes, its power is reducing. I wonder why? I think this situation occured because of

1-Using galaxolide or DPG
2-Using lesser Slyvamber and Timbersilk and more Iso e Super
3-Using Clary Sage reduced the effect of the top.

But which one?

I have no opportunity to test every step because of enough raw materials.But I think if I empower the top note about Bergamot and some of others, the whole formula will be powerfull more.I hope :)
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
The "good" formula already had an enormous amount of musks, so adding a lot more in galaxolide could certainly weigh things down. Also, it does seem very possible that adding that pretty robust dose of allyl amyl glycolate is obscuring your other top notes. Although anything is possible, it seems less likely that your modest dose of clary sage is the culprit. As suggested, go back to the exact version that was performing well, and only change one thing at a time. And from a strategic standpoint, if you liked the first version except for the top note, why did you mess around with changing non-top materials like musks & IES?
 

mkturker

Well-known member
May 11, 2014
The idea of it is that rather than have to make every variant (one that differs only in ingredient A, say Iso-E Super vs Sylvamber, another differing only in ingredient B, etc) from scratch, you can make up a base formula that has everything that's always in common for your formulas.

That way when trying variants you have a huge head start.

Also it may aid your personal analysis having this simpler starting point for a reference.

I understood just now :smiley: Thank you Bill
 

mkturker

Well-known member
May 11, 2014
The "good" formula already had an enormous amount of musks, so adding a lot more in galaxolide could certainly weigh things down. Also, it does seem very possible that adding that pretty robust dose of allyl amyl glycolate is obscuring your other top notes. Although anything is possible, it seems less likely that your modest dose of clary sage is the culprit. As suggested, go back to the exact version that was performing well, and only change one thing at a time. And from a strategic standpoint, if you liked the first version except for the top note, why did you mess around with changing non-top materials like musks & IES?

Thank you your kindly and teaching advices. I will try with reducing the amount of allyl heptanoate and allyl amyl glucolate firstly.Of course, clary sage.Then, I will try to reduce amount of galaxolide. But I had to change Bergamot (first formula) because it was wholely natural and with bergapthene. As you know, it have to be bergapten free because of its carcegonic effect. But when I changed bergamot and basil, the top note reduced. I must try more as the others said too. But, I think the first suspicius is galaxolide and the other is lesser Timbersilk and more Iso E Super. Because Iso E SUper is less powerfull than Sylvamber and Timbersilk. If I needed to reduce the power of some materials, I could use some fixatives and Iso E Super, but the problem is opposite of it.

Thanks again for your kindly response.
 

Bill Roberts

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2013
With Bergamot, I don't think it is important to odor quality or effect in formula whether it has the bergaptenes present or removed. In other words, if you like your formula that used a Bergamot that did have bergaptenes, you could do equally well or better with another Bergamot that is free of them.

And as always, with naturals one may have to shop around and get from several suppliers to find the one that is right for a particular formula.

There is a recent thread that has information on steering away from fakes by using information in the SDS's that could maybe help in finding better bets on what to try.
 

pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
Was going to give your formulas a better look, now I can't.

But I do remember that your first lines, in the first formula had so many molecules that were linalool and linalyl acetate, coming from both naturals and synths.
I mention that because so many times, amateurs don't know or realize what is inside the naturals that they use.
That's all that I can say presently...
 

FleetingDream

Active member
Dec 6, 2018
First time I see a redacted thread haha. Was hoping I'd learn something from here or offer some help but now I can't. But it seems like OP is sorted so that's all that matters.
 

mkturker

Well-known member
May 11, 2014
Was going to give your formulas a better look, now I can't.

But I do remember that your first lines, in the first formula had so many molecules that were linalool and linalyl acetate, coming from both naturals and synths.
I mention that because so many times, amateurs don't know or realize what is inside the naturals that they use.
That's all that I can say presently...

Paul,thank you for your response. I put the formula again and waiting to your important comments.

Best regards
 

Bkkorn

Well-known member
Feb 21, 2020
Just out of curiosity, what style of fragrance are you trying to achieve? From what I see....it looks like it's leaning towards a men's fragrance, but I don't know exactly what it is your trying to achieve for the final product.

Is it a summer time citrus freshie?
Fruity floral?
Gourmand?
Herbal fresh?
Woody chypre?
Fougere?

Is this a clone of a popular fragrance you are going for? For some reason, this kinda looks like it's an attempt at some sort of creed Aventus style clone.
 

mkturker

Well-known member
May 11, 2014
Just out of curiosity, what style of fragrance are you trying to achieve? From what I see....it looks like it's leaning towards a men's fragrance, but I don't know exactly what it is your trying to achieve for the final product.

Is it a summer time citrus freshie?
Fruity floral?
Gourmand?
Herbal fresh?
Woody chypre?
Fougere?

Is this a clone of a popular fragrance you are going for? For some reason, this kinda looks like it's an attempt at some sort of creed Aventus style clone.

I inspired from Aventus,you are true.But I tried to change something at top.I try to find a scent I wanted same with most of Sweet basil(ocimum minimum) but there is no natural oil for sweet basil oil.It is sold at shops and at wholesaler Ocimum Basilicum but it has very powerfull Anis odor.I found an odor in a clone manufacturer like Ocimum Minimum (sweet basil) but it has also green tea aspect.

In the end I try to design a fresh summer scent between Acqua di Gio and Creed Aventus.But it must be powerfull,diffusive and has sillage.The fragrance must has close effect like aventus and Acqua di Gio but it musn't include smoky and birch tar aspect or musn’t be weak like Gio.

I think, at top note, it is a little herbal and a little fruity fresh, at middle woody and chypre and at base woody chypre.
 

pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
Basil Essential oils, encompass many chemotypes:
1,8 cineole
Eugenol
Geranial
Linalool
Methyl chavicol
Methyl cinnamate
Neral
Ocimum


Your Anise version is the Methyl Chavicol chemotype.
Your Sweet Basil is the Linalool chemotype.

Just look harder for the chemotype that you wish to use.
The above two mentioned are likely the most common available.
 

pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
I've studied your formulas, I would recommend to find some sweet basil EO. Also, add a few more small amounts of topnotes materials, (like maybe Isoborneol, or mint) and also pump up the bergamot. Do you have a really good bergamot?
I would also go back to the Romandolide for your experiments. You could change later to compare Galaxolide with Romandolide after you fix other issues.

I would also probably run up your DHM a bit.

You can also look up the VIW / Aventus smashup formula from Jeroen Sparla for other ideas for this perfume.

Last, if you want a bit fuller Pineapple, you can try the Perfect Pineapple base at PSH, and remove the allyl amyl glycolate, allyl heptanoate, and manzanate. The base will also run up higher into the topnotes than these three listed do. Perfect Pineapple is quite diffusive, and is pretty much made for this formula.
 

mkturker

Well-known member
May 11, 2014
Basil Essential oils, encompass many chemotypes:
1,8 cineole
Eugenol
Geranial
Linalool
Methyl chavicol
Methyl cinnamate
Neral
Ocimum


Your Anise version is the Methyl Chavicol chemotype.
Your Sweet Basil is the Linalool chemotype.

Just look harder for the chemotype that you wish to use.
The above two mentioned are likely the most common available.

Thank you Paul, I reseached about it and find something that, this is Ocimum Minimum(Botanical name) and if it is true, there is a GC-MS analysis about Ocimum Basilicum and Ocimum Minimum. Bascilicum has nearly % 75 methyl eugenol and other materials' ratios are about 0,001-0,005.

But the Ocimum Minimum I am looking for has % 65 Geranyl Acetate and other materials are about 0,001-0,005.

The plant I looked for is named Manjerico at Portugal(for Wikipedia). In here(Turkey) we plant it as a foliage plant in vases. Sometimes we touch it with inside of our hand and smell.


If I can't find the natural, I will give help from a essential oil manufacturer in Turkey. Actually they gave me a study for this scent and it is very sweet. It has sweet basil and green tea aspect. Maybe, I will use it for an element of top note. If I can't find the true bergamot which I looked for, again I want them to help me about an accord for true bergamot.Maybe for Neroli too. Because I have a neroli natural and it has a excellent lemon-gum aspect and it gives to top note a smooth construct.


Thank you for your advices. I wil read them again and again and try something you adviced me.

Thank you.
 

Contrapunctus

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2021
The first formula is very powerfull but the others are not. What is the problem?


I think, it may be because of

1-reducing the ratio of sylvamber and timbersilk
2- Because of using galaxolide
3-Because of clary sage, neroli or allyl amyl glucolate
4-Because of DPG with Galaxolide
5- Because of using Iso E Super instead of only Timbersilk-Sylvamber Mix.
Note: The galaxolide is solved with DPG and 2. and 3. formula include DPG same with Galaxolide.

I'm not sure if it's a good idea for me to reply at all, because I'm by no means an expert if it comes to blening. I only know most of the listed materials from own experience.

I think, that the mentioned 'power' of your 1st formula could be explained with the use of Timbersilk/Sylvamber, but especially Timbersilk, because this material has some traces of 'super-ambers' in it (e.g. ambrocenide, amberxtreme). You probably could try some extra ambrocenide (but very carefull, the stuff is really strong, diffusive and persistant!). So, I'd skip the Iso-E-Super and keep the original amount of Timbersilk/Sylvamber.

Looking at the very volatile/diffusive/short-lived top-note materials: only your 1st formula contains 1% of Amyl heptanoate. This material is to my nose one of the most diffusive and volatile materials in your formula. Allyl heptanoate could in my opinion also be responsible for the 'extra power' - especially in the first minutes. Allyl Amyl Glycolate is to my nose not as volatile/diffusive (or at least in another way) and lasts way longer.

The fir needle oil is also reduced in your 2nd and 3rd versions - another quite volatile material that could add some 'lift'. Alternatively, you could add some Bornyl acetate (one of the constituents of fir needle oil). Bornyl acetate has to me a quite pleasant smell of conifer-needles, airy, a bit sweet but not harsh or overly woody.
 

mkturker

Well-known member
May 11, 2014
I'm not sure if it's a good idea for me to reply at all, because I'm by no means an expert if it comes to blening. I only know most of the listed materials from own experience.

I think, that the mentioned 'power' of your 1st formula could be explained with the use of Timbersilk/Sylvamber, but especially Timbersilk, because this material has some traces of 'super-ambers' in it (e.g. ambrocenide, amberxtreme). You probably could try some extra ambrocenide (but very carefull, the stuff is really strong, diffusive and persistant!). So, I'd skip the Iso-E-Super and keep the original amount of Timbersilk/Sylvamber.

Looking at the very volatile/diffusive/short-lived top-note materials: only your 1st formula contains 1% of Amyl heptanoate. This material is to my nose one of the most diffusive and volatile materials in your formula. Allyl heptanoate could in my opinion also be responsible for the 'extra power' - especially in the first minutes. Allyl Amyl Glycolate is to my nose not as volatile/diffusive (or at least in another way) and lasts way longer.

The fir needle oil is also reduced in your 2nd and 3rd versions - another quite volatile material that could add some 'lift'. Alternatively, you could add some Bornyl acetate (one of the constituents of fir needle oil). Bornyl acetate has to me a quite pleasant smell of conifer-needles, airy, a bit sweet but not harsh or overly woody.


Dear Contrapunctus; thank you for your advices. I thought as you adviced some about materials. I think the main reason for weakness is about using Iso-E instead of only Sylvamber-Timbersilk Mix. Because I noticed that they give woodyness to whole fragrances more than Iso E. And IMO, it comes from more Iso Gamma ratio of both.Maybe Iso E get the formula more transparent but, I didn't need so. The other reason maybe because of using Galaxolide instead of Romandolide. Because Galaxolide is very viscous material and have a fixative effect on formula.

The second, I will try for Bornyl acetate because, I estimate nearly how it smells like.

Another Issue about Allyl Amyl Glucolate and Allyl Heptanoate, maybe they give the formula a little fruity but Paul adviced me to get me off them.I will try. I had to try first tme with naturals because I can't find every materials in Turkey easily. There is not any retailer about fragrance materials about 10-100 mls.


I will try, thank you for your comment and advices.
 

mkturker

Well-known member
May 11, 2014
Today and just now I smelled my all materials mentioned in my formula.I decided something that

1-I will remove clarysage
2-I don’t remove allyl Amyl Glucolate because I see that it is very powerfull and diffusive
3-I decided to remove bergamot because nearly same effect I wanted is at pine
4-I decided to reduce musks and remove Galaxolide and get Romandolide again
5-I decided to use only Timber-Sylvamber mix and run up to Timbersilk more
6-I decided to use for citrus odor neroli-DHM
7-I decided to run up Neobutenone Alpha and Triplal maybe X2 or x3
8-I decided to reduce Hedione or change the ratio of regular and HC
9-Maybe I reduce the Ambrettolide from 3 to 2
10-Maybe I run up the cashmeran from 2 to 2,5


But I have to get a rest for tomorrow work :smiley:
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
In addition to the thread starter deleting their formula from this thread, the moderators have deleted posts by others that quoted the formula. So people should be aware that when they intend to publicly provide feedback on formulas for the benefit of all DIY forum users, they may end up having involuntarily provided private perfumery consulting services for free.
 

mkturker

Well-known member
May 11, 2014
In addition to the thread starter deleting their formula from this thread, the moderators have deleted posts by others that quoted the formula. So people should be aware that when they intend to publicly provide feedback on formulas for the benefit of all DIY forum users, they may end up having involuntarily provided private perfumery consulting services for free.

My aim was about getting help about my formula.But the decision about deleting it or not is mine.But you quoted my three formula without my permission.If I started a thread and asked question about it,I can decide what I must or can do.If this forum is free,decisions must be free too.

I sent you a private message about deleting your quoted message but you didn’t.I sent you again and again,but you didn’t.I sent you a message from twitter but you didn’t.I understood that you didn’t respect to my decision about staying or deleting of my formula.

Of course I know something about my materials I used but I needed a consultation from old and experienced members and Paul and some others (and you) gave me adequetly.

Thank you for your old comments about my questions in other threads but I am very sad because of your this attitude Mike.

Of course my formula is not unique and not have captives as you know.But I want to get it a commercial product.I have spent my time to learning something about preparing a fragrance for four years.

You are an academician and me too.We know that knowledge raises when we share it.But sometimes we can be helpless about our environment and need from others.

I wanted help about my formula and I got it.The need became unnecessary after some advices IMO.

If I want deeply colsultation,I know somebodies are giving it with a consultation fee.

But I didn’t need so deeply

I have a proud and happiness about moderators’ sensibilities about my decisions.

I sent you private messages but you didn’t delete quoted formula but I wanted from moderators and they did.

Thank you very much dear Moderators.You are very kind and respectfull.

Thank you for your unique helps Mike but I am sad because of you
 

Jolieo

Well-known member
Feb 18, 2018
Free perfumery advice: Which if I were good enough- I don’t think I’d care about, otherwise I just wouldn’t provide it, abut kind of ruins the spirit of this adventure. And as always , the deus ex machina that mods are in this forum, our activity is monitored w/o participation, ( or much)- and how is that done? Automatically? By request?? Why would someone who participates for a minute , get to request deleted answers?
I resent the secrecy that is perfumery- and it gets perpetuated - he even stated that he was trying to model after adventus, etc-
So if we all did that the forum wouldn’t be, maybe just asking about materials
 

Contrapunctus

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2021
This is quite outrageous, mturker. Mike is absolutely right with his comment.

I've been following BN as a reader for nearly 20 years. In the past few years I have already noticed some behavioral changes in the DIY forums. And the behavior shown here fits perfectly into the overall picture. Unfortunately.

A few months ago I decided to actively contribute to the forum with a few posts.

But that stops now! This is my last - frustrated - post.

Final remark: In my opinion, DIY perfumery is a lonely hobby that you can only successfully pursue on your own! Quick advice and help from forums and YT videos won't really help you in this area! You only learn fragrances and ACs on your own - not on BN or YT.

Good luck!
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
This is quite outrageous, mturker. Mike is absolutely right with his comment.

I've been following BN as a reader for nearly 20 years. In the past few years I have already noticed some behavioral changes in the DIY forums. And the behavior shown here fits perfectly into the overall picture. Unfortunately.

A few months ago I decided to actively contribute to the forum with a few posts.

But that stops now! This is my last - frustrated - post.

Final remark: In my opinion, DIY perfumery is a lonely hobby that you can only successfully pursue on your own! Quick advice and help from forums and YT videos won't really help you in this area! You only learn fragrances and ACs on your own - not on BN or YT.

Good luck!

Speaking solely for myself, I have zero doubt that advice & help from this forum has been absolutely key to me developing even the slightest capacity for perfumery. In the absence of this forum, I think I would've given up long ago.
 

mkturker

Well-known member
May 11, 2014
This is quite outrageous, mturker. Mike is absolutely right with his comment.

I've been following BN as a reader for nearly 20 years. In the past few years I have already noticed some behavioral changes in the DIY forums. And the behavior shown here fits perfectly into the overall picture. Unfortunately.

A few months ago I decided to actively contribute to the forum with a few posts.

But that stops now! This is my last - frustrated - post.

Final remark: In my opinion, DIY perfumery is a lonely hobby that you can only successfully pursue on your own! Quick advice and help from forums and YT videos won't really help you in this area! You only learn fragrances and ACs on your own - not on BN or YT.

Good luck!

What is quite outrageous, I didn't understand Contrapunctus? This is digital world and just now somebodies may share in social medias something and delete after this sharing. I asked a question and decided to delete it. My formula is not unique as I mentioned before. You or somebody can do the same with Grojsman accord and something different at tope and middle notes. But I didn't want my study to stay publicly long time in here. Firstly I shared and then I deleted. What is that outrageous?Did I do something about guilty about humanity?

If you care that your comment is valuable and if you don't want to share it free, you can request fee for your advices.But if you don't care, you can comment it or not.

Paul Killer commented about my formula and I decided to do something and also he mentioned he tried my formula. What a kind action. But he didn't said "My advices are so important and you are my slave".

I will learn lots of thing thanks to this forum but here is not a compulsory environment and musn't be so.

Quick advice and help from forums and YT videos won't really help you in this area! You only learn fragrances and ACs on your own - not on BN or YT. !

I learnt many of things thanks to this forum. Of course whole knowledge is not in here but Basenotes is an encyclopedia.


I don't want to prolong the discussion. But everyone must/have to respect to others decisions. But they shouldn't be by forcing
 

mkturker

Well-known member
May 11, 2014
Speaking solely for myself, I have zero doubt that advice & help from this forum has been absolutely key to me developing even the slightest capacity for perfumery. In the absence of this forum, I think I would've given up long ago.

I learnt lots of thing thanks to you and others in this forum. I developed or changed a formula estimated from this forum. Thank you Mike. We will learn more and more by this forum. But sometimes we can not understand eachother.


Anyway.

I think, now there is no problem for me.
 

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