Patchouli aging

[Milhaus]

Hi,
i have bought Patchouli HEART CO2 (SELECT) from hemitageoils. Because i hate patchouli earth/dirty note ( but i love patchouli in David Beckham Signature and many other perfumes ) i would like to know if earthy note disappear after few months of perfume aging or i need different patchouli oil...

 

[DrSmellThis]

I like to age it two years. To me, if I am going to have it as discernable note, I like it aged to the point of emerging wine notes. That is before adding it to a perfume. You can't age patchouli too long. It gets syrupy eventually, and then it's beautiful enough to wear a drop neat in my opinion, combined with a drop of Eden's amber. However, I love patchouli, and a lot of people hate it, or think they do.

I don't know how a perfumer could hate the earthy note of patchouli, though. That will always be there. Perfuming is in some measure learning how to love, appreciate and use odors others find offensive,

Everything depends on how much you use, also.

I prefer the Indonesian patchouli over the Indian variety, and I prefer the darker ones.

 

[Picassoutine]

You can buy aged patchouli from Floracopeia.com.

 

[Chris Bartlett]

Hi,
i have bought Patchouli HEART CO2 (SELECT) from hemitageoils. Because i hate patchouli earth/dirty note ( but i love patchouli in David Beckham Signature and many other perfumes ) i would like to know if earthy note disappear after few months of perfume aging or i need different patchouli oil...

If you are looking for a lighter, milder patchouli I’d suggest what you want is the molecular distilled version - also available from Hermitage - I use this in cases where I’m looking for the subtle, enhancing, complexing qualities of patchouli but don’t want that earthy-hippy note to be apparent in the finished blend.

 

[gecko214]

I have for some time now been tempted to buy a few liters of patchouli and keep it in reserve for say 10 years. The reason I have not is I don't know what patchouli would be best for this. If I am going to invest that much time in it, I want to do it right. I know there are issues with iron in the dark patchouli that make professional perfumers sometimes avoid it, or so I understand, but I also wonder if this is not the one that will age best. Anyone have an idea which type of patchouli would be best to keep in "reserve" for future use/sale?

 

[Chris Bartlett]

I have for some time now been tempted to buy a few liters of patchouli and keep it in reserve for say 10 years. The reason I have not is I don't know what patchouli would be best for this. If I am going to invest that much time in it, I want to do it right. I know there are issues with iron in the dark patchouli that make professional perfumers sometimes avoid it, or so I understand, but I also wonder if this is not the one that will age best. Anyone have an idea which type of patchouli would be best to keep in "reserve" for future use/sale?

I guess it depends on whether you want to use it or sell it, for what and to whom.

Dark Patchouli is usually distilled in traditional iron stills, with the result that it contains enough iron to cause discolouration and, more importantly, to set off reactions with various perfumery materials where the iron acts as a catalyst. Because it’s a catalyst rather than a reactant even traces of iron can be enough to cause problems.

What that means is that for most perfumery purposes aged, dark patchouli would be less saleable, than for example a light patchouli. On the other hand for aromatherapy purposes it would probably be more highly sought after (I say probably because that’s not really my area of expertise, but from what I hear dark is preferred).

For that level of investment I’d suggest it might be worth getting some direct from a producer who uses copper or ceramic stills, buy their best grade oil and then keep it in good conditions.

 

[Chris Bartlett]

while we are on the subject, does anyone have a good relationship with Ventos, the spanish distributor? I’m keen to buy some of their high-patchoulenol products but can’t get anywhere with them, so I’d appreciate either a good contact there or some help if anyone deals with them regularly, please let me know.

 

[David Ruskin]

Dark Patchouli contains traces of Iron as Chris explained above. When mixing this Patchouli with a Salicylate (such as Benzyl Salicylate) you will get a very dark discolouration. The Iron can be removed very easily. Add a little Citric Acid to the Patchouli, shake and filter. The Iron will have been removed, resulting in Iron free Patchouli. You can do the same with any oil that has been distilled or kept in Iron containers. Cinnamon often causes the same discolouration for the same reason, and can be treated in the same way.

 

[Chris Bartlett]

Dark Patchouli contains traces of Iron as Chris explained above. When mixing this Patchouli with a Salicylate (such as Benzyl Salicylate) you will get a very dark discolouration. The Iron can be removed very easily. Add a little Citric Acid to the Patchouli, shake and filter. The Iron will have been removed, resulting in Iron free Patchouli. You can do the same with any oil that has been distilled or kept in Iron containers. Cinnamon often causes the same discolouration for the same reason, and can be treated in the same way.

Thanks, that’s a really good tip: I’ve never heard of using citric acid that way before and would never have thought of it.

Do you use the crystals directly or must it be pre-dissolved in a solvent?

Thinking about this a bit more, when it can be removed so easily, I’m surprised that Iron-free patchouli isn’t a standard perfumery offering in the same way that furocoumarin free Bergamot is: perhaps because it’s so easy that the major blending houses do that bit themselves?

 

[gandhajala]

I received the same Patchouli heart CO2 today and I have to say, it smells incredible. A truly beautiful presentation.

 

[David Ruskin]

Thanks, that’s a really good tip: I’ve never heard of using citric acid that way before and would never have thought of it.

Do you use the crystals directly or must it be pre-dissolved in a solvent?

Thinking about this a bit more, when it can be removed so easily, I’m surprised that Iron-free patchouli isn’t a standard perfumery offering in the same way that furocoumarin free Bergamot is: perhaps because it’s so easy that the major blending houses do that bit themselves?

We only ever used Iron free Patchouli; no difference in smell and no unnecessary discolouration. We bought it decolourised As far as I am aware you don't need to pre-dissolve the Citric Acid; just add a few crystals to the dark patchouli, shake and filter.

 

[DrSmellThis]

We only ever used Iron free Patchouli; no difference in smell and no unnecessary discolouration. We bought it decolourised As far as I am aware you don't need to pre-dissolve the Citric Acid; just add a few crystals to the dark patchouli, shake and filter.

I've learned a lot in this thread. It had never occured to me that the irons react with the perfume in many ways. But it raises the question Chris alluded to. Also, patchouli is so thick, or can be, how do you put it through a filter without significant product loss?

And is there any chance the citric acid could react with other things in the patchouli?

 

[David Ruskin]

I've learned a lot in this thread. It had never occured to me that the irons react with the perfume in many ways. But it raises the question Chris alluded to. Also, patchouli is so thick, or can be, how do you put it through a filter without significant product loss?

And is there any chance the citric acid could react with other things in the patchouli?

I have discoloured Patchouli using Citric Acid, and didn't find filtering to be a problem. I guess if your Patchouli is very viscous it could be a problem. Also don't know if Citric acid would react with anything else. What it is doing is reacting with the Iron to form Iron Citrate, which is then removed. As I wrote, the problem with Iron is that it badly discolours when in the presence of Salicylates.

 

[David Ruskin]

If it is impossible to filter, I guess leaving the Citric Acid won't do any harm. You don't need much for it to work.

 

[pkiler]

David, Thanks for this Patchouli Information, it is very helpful, and pertinent to this current fragracne I am working on too... even a bigger bonus!

PK

 

[gecko214]

Great information everyone, thanks! David, did anything you worked on ever call for "aged" patchouli? Or is the idea it improves things just a myth?

 

[David Ruskin]

Great information everyone, thanks! David, did anything you worked on ever call for "aged" patchouli? Or is the idea it improves things just a myth?

I have some Patchouli that is about 10 years old, smells damn fine to me. I don't know if it is true or not. Certainly fresh Patchouli leaves smell of very little, they have to be dried and cured (like Tea and Tobacco) before they start smelling good.

 

[DrSmellThis]

Thanks again David, and thanks also to Chris for contributing.

Having to age things is one of the most difficult things about perfuming for me. Buy some ambergris and use it a year later? Are you kidding me? Who has that level of willpower? Planning skills become important. But it seems most base note essential oils benefit from some aging, not that I know this for sure. But it just seemed patchouli was especially this way. The one non-aged bottle I have (which is nonetheless probably a year old by now) is definitely not as nice as the aged one.

 

[David Ruskin]

Thanks again David, and thanks also to Chris for contributing.

Having to age things is one of the most difficult things about perfuming for me. Buy some ambergris and use it a year later? Are you kidding me? Who has that level of willpower? Planning skills become important. But it seems most base note essential oils benefit from some aging, not that I know this for sure. But it just seemed patchouli was especially this way. The one non-aged bottle I have (which is nonetheless probably a year old by now) is definitely not as nice as the aged one.

Unfortunately there could be another reason that your newer sample of Patchouli isn't as nice as your older sample, and that is the newer sample wasn't as good as the older, in the first place.

 

[gecko214]

Unfortunately there could be another reason that your newer sample of Patchouli isn't as nice as your older sample, and that is the newer sample wasn't as good as the older, in the first place.

Which is why it is so hard to choose what material to lay away. I suppose maybe just buy a few kilos of several different ones.

 

[mkturker]

It is very old threat but I have to ask something about Iron Free and Regular Patchouli. I want to buy one of them for my formulation and I want to an odor at top note woody and at basenote earthy one. Maybe (I don't know) there isn't any difference between them (Iron free and Regular)in terms of their odor but if anyone have opinion please inform me. Which one I must choose? Pictures below are about their GC-MS Analysis pictures but I couldn't obtain their tables.

 

[Jolieo]

This is my opinion- first of all - why don’t you buy a sample of each first? If it is important to get the right one , there are many vendors- unless it is your location that is the problem.
I have so many patchouli products- and they are all different, I think like rose or oud, patchouli has huge variations- if I was making a commercial perfume- unless the one that had iron was perfect, I wouldn’t want to mess with citric acid if I didn’t have to.
But as Mike says , all the time, it doesn’t matter what it smells like- it matters what it does in formula
That out of the way- I absolutely believe the best distillations of essential oils or absolutes are much better as far as materials go- so if you stick to reputable vendors who sell good products, your materials will be usable
But I still believe in sampling as many as possible

 

[mkturker]

This is my opinion- first of all - why don’t you buy a sample of each first? If it is important to get the right one , there are many vendors- unless it is your location that is the problem.
I have so many patchouli products- and they are all different, I think like rose or oud, patchouli has huge variations- if I was making a commercial perfume- unless the one that had iron was perfect, I wouldn’t want to mess with citric acid if I didn’t have to.
But as Mike says , all the time, it doesn’t matter what it smells like- it matters what it does in formula
That out of the way- I absolutely believe the best distillations of essential oils or absolutes are much better as far as materials go- so if you stick to reputable vendors who sell good products, your materials will be usable
But I still believe in sampling as many as possible

Thank you for your advice Jolieo,but they don’t sell sample.I bought today from Iron free one because I saw from pictures above that Iron free has more and powerfull picks than regular.At the other side,I learnt from here about interaction of iron with some others.I cannot know how will it work in formula and for ensure myself,I chosen Iron Free one.