Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

[Bigsly]

Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

Not being much of a niche sampler myself, yet surprised at how often I encounter such a niche scent (such as the "iso e super nightmare"), I was wondering what the experiences of those who do a lot of niche sampling are (especially if you have done your sampling of niche scents released over the last few years). Thanks.

 

[Ken_Russell]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

Personally speaking: so far, only owning and being familiar a few niche sample sets covering usually a single niche house (and mostly a tiny fraction of its output) like Xerjoff, Memo Paris, Jovoy etc. and so far, on repeated testings, did not detect any overly or even recognizably chemical, synthetic smelling notes (although not being particularly experienced to pick them out, to recognize or define them either)

 

[cacio]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

As usual, everybody has his or her own perception of what is synthetic or not - some may find iso-e chemical and others don't.
In my experience, on average, there are more natural materials and less sharply synthetic stuff in niche, but that's just an average, there's a lot of difference across brands. For instance, Diptyque tended for an aesthetic of light and natural (no matter how much synthetics were in the formula), though it seems to have shifted a bit in some recent releases. CDG often went for synthetic per se, but mostly with good effects.

cacio

 

[sjg3839]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

Some good, some not!

 

[hednic]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

In my experience, on average, there are more natural materials and less sharply synthetic stuff in niche,

My experience also.

 

[NeoXerxes]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

My experience also.

And mine.

 

[dougczar]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

Me too!

Of course niche houses use synthetics, but designers seem to [generally] use a much higher concentration of the worst offender aromachemicals. The sharp screetchy notes and ISO-E that I smell in a LOT of designers, I don't usually detect in niche - and if I do, it's much more subtle. Generally speaking.

 

[Bavard]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

A couple niche categories that tend to smell synthetic/chemical/artificial to me are:

1. Fragrances with "Oud" in the name; and

2. Fragrances with the type of leather note in Acqua di Parma Colonia Leather, Tuscan Leather, etc.

 

[L'Homme Blanc Individuel]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

Generally speaking, I find that designers smell more synthetic than niche. I'd say maybe 10% of niche smell blatantly synthetic to me, whereas at least 50% of designers smell blatantly synthetic to me... but ...the 10% of niche I said smells synthetic is mostly from a few specific houses. Many scents from Bond smell like chemical bombs to me. Many Parfums De Marly scents smell wonderful at first but end up smelling nasty to me due to specific chemicals they like to use in their bases (lots of norlimbanol. I am not a fan of that stuff at all. It smells cheap, dry, scratchy, and has a chemical fakeness that bugs me because I know it's supposed to smell like wood, but to me, it's chemicals. It's like ordering a glass of orange juice and being given a glass of orange Tang instead. At Parfums De Marly prices, I feel like I should be getting less of a heavy hand with the synthetics. I want the wood to smell like wood, not like chemicals pretending to be a wood-like smell).

A note about Iso E Super:

I've noticed that a LOT of the complaining I read about Iso E Super is from people who smell something chemical and blame Iso E Super because that's the only chemical they know by name... so, every time they smell chemicals, they complain about Iso E Super because it's the only chemical they know even though what they're smelling is usually something else. Not always, but usually.

 

[Bigsly]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

Generally speaking, I find that designers smell more synthetic than niche. I'd say maybe 10% of niche smell blatantly synthetic to me, whereas at least 50% of designers smell blatantly synthetic to me... but ...the 10% of niche I said smells synthetic is mostly from a few specific houses. Many scents from Bond smell like chemical bombs to me. Many Parfums De Marly scents smell wonderful at first but end up smelling nasty to me due to specific chemicals they like to use in their bases (lots of norlimbanol. I am not a fan of that stuff at all. It smells cheap, dry, scratchy, and has a chemical fakeness that bugs me because I know it's supposed to smell like wood, but to me, it's chemicals. It's like ordering a glass of orange juice and being given a glass of orange Tang instead. At Parfums De Marly prices, I feel like I should be getting less of a heavy hand with the synthetics. I want the wood to smell like wood, not like chemicals pretending to be a wood-like smell).

A note about Iso E Super:

I've noticed that a LOT of the complaining I read about Iso E Super is from people who smell something chemical and blame Iso E Super because that's the only chemical they know by name... so, every time they smell chemicals, they complain about Iso E Super because it's the only chemical they know even though what they're smelling is usually something else. Not always, but usually.

That sounds about right, though of course some people only sample certain kinds of niche, which may tend to smell more or less natural. As to iso e super, I came to view this as a problem for me when I saw lists of fragrances that had a lot of it. Every one of them had the same effect on me. I have seen claims about it by others when I would bet money (if I could) that it's calone, dihydromyrcenol, "white"' musk, or something else.

 

[Colin Maillard]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

The majority of niche smells quite more synthetic and flat than most people would be willing to admit. But well, the majority of designers and cheapos do as well... trends replicate in all segments I guess (nothing wrong with that, if niche didn't keep blabbering about "art" and "naturalness"...).

 

[Bigsly]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

The majority of niche smells quite more synthetic and flat than most people would be willing to admit. But well, the majority of designers and cheapos do as well... trends replicate in all segments I guess (nothing wrong with that, if niche didn't keep blabbering about "art" and "naturalness"...).

Well, what I've found is that the "super cheapos" I buy tend to be more natural-smelling than quite a few niche scents I've tried lately. Compare Magman or Club Intense by Tacchini to Stash or Upper Ten for Women, for example. Other than iso e super, cashmeran is another chemical that the niche people seem to love in huge amounts these days (I don't mind that one but at a certain amount it becomes irritating).

 

[L'Homme Blanc Individuel]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

Well, what I've found is that the "super cheapos" I buy tend to be more natural-smelling than quite a few niche scents I've tried lately.

Are you using Magman and Club Intense as examples of niche? Or are you saying the Sarah Jessica Parker scent is niche?

I assumed you're so anti-niche because it's expensive. As you said, you're not willing to pay more than $20... but now I'm wondering if it's also that you're picking the wrong niche scents to try.

 

[Bigsly]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

Are you using Magman and Club Intense as examples of niche? Or are you saying the Sarah Jessica Parker scent is niche?

I assumed you're so anti-niche because it's expensive. As you said, you're not willing to pay more than $20... but now I'm wondering if it's also that you're picking the wrong niche scents to try.

With niche samples, it's whatever comes my way. I don't go out of my way to acquire them. Stash is certainly an attempt at niche. You can call it niche pastiche, niche light, or something along those lines (as others have, though most seem to think it should be considered niche, in terms of smell, how it's constructed, etc.) but it's the kind of scent I'm referencing. Upper Ten for Women seems to have a whole lot of cashmeran in it. I'd rather wear Magman (cost me about $5 for 100 ml), just on the "naturalness" factor alone (I also like the notes more). And you can keep calling me anti-niche as I acquire more and more niche bottles - it will continue to provide me with a good laugh!

 

[L'Homme Blanc Individuel]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

And you can keep calling me anti-niche as I acquire more and more niche bottles - it will continue to provide me with a good laugh!

If you're getting niche bottles for under $20, your understanding of what niche is will be wildly skewed. It's a lot like trying to judge steak when your examples are $10 steaks you'd get at a pub.

I'm definitely not saying you have to like niche, or that you should be spending more money than you want to. It just seems like you badmouth niche a lot and are constantly looking for examples of how niche isn't good. I'm trying to explain how those opinions are reflections of the kinds of niche you're trying. Sarah Jessica Parker scents may be be a good, but I wouldn't expect them to compare to something from Xerjoff, Amouage, MFK, or indie houses like Slumberhouse. Like I said, if my opinion about steak was limited to the cheap steaks at a pub, I'd have very little understanding of how good steak can be, so of course my opinion would be that it's ridiculous to pay $60 for a ribeye at a nice restaurant.

 

[Diamondflame]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

If you keep looking for trouble, it will find you. So don't go around sniffing to look for chemical imprints because having primed your brain thus, you will eventually find something. And I agree with LHBI, Iso E Super seems to get the unfair share of the blame by people who don't even know what it actually smells like.

 

[Bigsly]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

If you keep looking for trouble, it will find you. So don't go around sniffing to look for chemical imprints because having primed your brain thus, you will eventually find something. And I agree with LHBI, Iso E Super seems to get the unfair share of the blame by people who don't even know what it actually smells like.

That's simply not a fair statement, as I have plenty of niche bottles and they don't smell at all chemical or synthetic. I'm just curious about recent niche releases in this context. Kevin over at the NST blog has made a similar point in a recent post!

 

[L'Homme Blanc Individuel]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

That's simply not a fair statement

Diamondflame's reply is absolutely fair and correct. He said: "If you keep looking for trouble, it will find you. So don't go around sniffing to look for chemical imprints because having primed your brain thus, you will eventually find something." And he's right. It reminds me of a hilarious experience I had with friends a while ago. A bunch of us were at a pub for happy hour, and one of my friends (let's call him Dave) started complaining about women, about how they're all the same. Dave rattled off a long list of things he hates about women and dating. Typical stuff, really. He said women are so superficial, only interested in men's looks and money. Etc etc etc, blah blah blah. Anyway... another one of my friends realized he probably shouldn't drive, so he texted his girlfriend to see if she'd pick him up. When she arrived, Dave turned bright red. Long story short, Dave had been on a date with her, and because he's the kind of guy who's always seeking flaws, he found one and wrote her off, and now his best friend was in an awesome relationship with her. Dave met her, thinking "Dating sucks. Women suck." Obviously, he was looking for reasons to prove himself right. Our other friend (let's call him Bill, because that's his name, lol) met her thinking "Let's meet and see if we click" and they did.

If you're always looking for things to be bad, you'll always find reasons why things are bad. You've said you won't pay more than $20 for perfume, and that is A-OK if it works for you. I won't pay more than $20 for a bottle of wine for home, because I can always find wine for less which thrills me. But I don't try to prove that wine over $50 or even over $150 is bad and that nobody should like it. It's fine that you're only interested in perfume you can get for $20. I own bottles I got for $20 or less that I love. But there's no need to badmouth niche just because you aren't interested in it. It's not for you? No worries.

But there's a difference between knowing something isn't for you and needing to convince others they shouldn't like it either.

Kevin over at the NST blog has made a similar point in a recent post!

A similar point? You didn't make a point, you asked a question. I'd be curious to know what the point you wish to make is though.

I'll end this comment by quoting diamondflame again, because he's right:

If you keep looking for trouble, it will find you. So don't go around sniffing to look for chemical imprints because having primed your brain thus, you will eventually find something.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There's garbage niche, and there's garbage designers. There's amazing niche and there's amazing designers. I keep my options open for both because I enjoy both. Focus on the negative and the negative will be the vast majority of what you'll find. In my opinion, life is too short and too precious for that.

 

[purecaramel]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

Synthetics are used extensively in Niche. I have found that, in many cases Niche perfumers seem concerned with balance, structure and shaping.
For Example. MFK's Grand Soir is essentially Synthetic Amber Kephalis (I Suspect) shaped and smoothed by other Synthetics to produce something that appeals to men's pallette, as it is simple, baritone and linear.
I have found that many Designer Fragrances slap a dollop of Calone or Ambroxin on top of poor Quality ingredients and call it a day.
Niche perfumers more often use Calone as an enhancer, shaper, or like in the case of something like Amouage Opus VI a huge dose of Amber Woody over top of Superb Quality ingredients.

 

[Bigsly]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

A similar point? You didn't make a point, you asked a question...

The number of ways you find to be wrong continues to astound me! Here is the point I made. which was before you posted the comment above:

"Well, what I've found is that the "super cheapos" I buy tend to be more natural-smelling than quite a few niche scents I've tried lately. Compare Magman or Club Intense by Tacchini to Stash or Upper Ten for Women, for example. Other than iso e super, cashmeran is another chemical that the niche people seem to love in huge amounts these days (I don't mind that one but at a certain amount it becomes irritating)."

As to Kevin at NST, on March 3, he reviewed Durbano's Lapis Philosophorum, saying that it possessed, "decidedly phony [woody notes] (Iso E Super stands out)."

In the comments section he said, "I like many from the Durbano line…the two you mention for sure. The faux wood IS strong in this one."

To another commenter he said, "Lizbee, ha! To get rid of Iso E Super you’d have to remove skin."

This is exactly my experience, though I'm sure he does a lot more niche sampling than I do. And that's why I was wondering if this is a trend of recent years, as I find that far too many niche scents are loaded with iso e super, cashmeran, or some sort of incredibly irritating "white" musk. Designers of the last few years may be even worse - that would not surprise me, and that was one motivation for creating this thread. As to me acquiring niche bottles, I've said on several threads (almost certainly at least one you've commented on) that it's nearly always through swaps, though once in a rare while I am able to buy one very inexpensively on ebay (there was a seller with more than a few 100 ml Timbuktu bottles not long ago, for $40, IIRC, but I don't find anything special about it).

 

[Bigsly]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

Synthetics are used extensively in Niche. I have found that, in many cases Niche perfumers seem concerned with balance, structure and shaping.
For Example. MFK's Grand Soir is essentially Synthetic Amber Kephalis (I Suspect) shaped and smoothed by other Synthetics to produce something that appeals to men's pallette, as it is simple, baritone and linear.
I have found that many Designer Fragrances slap a dollop of Calone or Ambroxin on top of poor Quality ingredients and call it a day.
Niche perfumers more often use Calone as an enhancer, shaper, or like in the case of something like Amouage Opus VI a huge dose of Amber Woody over top of Superb Quality ingredients.

I've found that some CK scents of recent years seem to be really loaded with some nasty aroma chemicals, which might not be bad if they were weaker, but after half an hour or so the nice top dissipates and it smells like bare aroma chemicals. If my choice was between this type of scent and niche of recent years, I'd say, sure, niche is a lot better (generally-speaking, obviously), but then there are the "super cheapos" I've purchased that don't have any kind of "synthetic" or "chemical" element (or it's very minor). Just some I can remember offhand: Unbreakable, Cuba Prestige, Magnet for Men, Legend by Michael Jordan, and the aforementioned. For more money, but lower than designer, are Ferrari's Oud and Leather Essence scents, which are among my favorites of the last few years among any scent categories.

I can't comment on the two you mentioned because I have yet to try those, but I've tried my share of Tauer, Creed, L'Artisan, Lutens (probably my favorite of the bunch and I would not criticize these scents for synthetic or chemical issues), CdG, Diptyque, Amouage, etc., along with "lesser houses" and designer exclusives. I'm curious about how many of those released in the last few years may be using certain kinds of aroma chemicals in large amounts, perhaps because a kind of niche signature quality has been established (similar to what came to be known as Guerlinade among many but not all of Guerlain's releases?). Stash in particular led me to think that those who make the decisions about these releases are thinking that they need to release a scent that will come across as "niche" to those who are interested in actually buying bottles (as opposed to those who just sample). It may be that this is the "safe" approach and will likely sell so many bottles.

 

[L'Homme Blanc Individuel]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

Kevin at NST, on March 3, he reviewed Durbano's Lapis Philosophorum, saying that it possessed, "decidedly phony [woody notes] (Iso E Super stands out)."

In the comments section he said, "I like many from the Durbano line…the two you mention for sure. The faux wood IS strong in this one."

So... because a guy on a blog said one niche scent had too much Iso E Super, your opinion is that all niche is more synthetic than designers?

You've said you won't spend more than $20 on a fragrance. That's fine if it works for you. Really. But you're trying to judge all niche based on what you manage to get for $20, and you don't understand the flaw in that methodology at all. It's like disparaging all steaks because the steak you buy for $5 at a bar is tough and loaded with gristle - thus, a $65 steak at Ruth's Chris, Morton's or The Palm is also tough and loaded with gristle.

To another commenter he said, "Lizbee, ha! To get rid of Iso E Super you’d have to remove skin."

Do you even know what that means? You might want to look through your own wardrobe because it's loaded with scents featuring Iso E Super.

You complain about how expensive niche is, but look at how much money you've wasted on scents you're trying to get rid of. My entire wardrobe costs less than that.

 

[dougczar]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

Perhaps you are just ultra--sensitive to many types of chemicals - even some naturals?

I know you have discussed at length in the past about having serious issues with top notes and such. I am guessing you just have a sensitivity to certain things.

 

[dougczar]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

You complain about how expensive niche is, but look at how much money you've wasted on scents you're trying to get rid of. My entire wardrobe costs less than that.

Yeah, I see this a lot. People buy cheap stuff and wind up not being happy, where it's actually more cost-effective to buy something nice right off the bat and then enjoy it.

Better to have one nice thing than 2 bad ones. Two of crap is still crap.

 

[Alex Krycek]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

From reading this thread and some of your other posts, your argument seems to be: 1. that price is an inaccurate metric for determining fragrance quality, and 2. in most cases you can find a less expensive scent that is superior.

Do I have that right?

 

[Bigsly]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

Perhaps you are just ultra--sensitive to many types of chemicals - even some naturals?

I know you have discussed at length in the past about having serious issues with top notes and such. I am guessing you just have a sensitivity to certain things.

My guess is that I am more sensitive to at least some aroma chemicals than most others, and at one time, I think late 2008 and 2009, I was hyper-sensitive to just about everything (I don't think sweetness bothered me, though). However, over the last couple of years I seem to only be sensitive to certain aroma chemicals. Some I like in reasonable amounts (dihydromyrcenol and cashmeran) while others are very irritating (calone, iso e super, some "white musks"), but what has that to do with the question? In fact, I agreed with the person who seems to not understand my point (or feels his precious niche is under attack), in terms of what percentage of niche versus designer (over the last few years) seem to be too "chemical." He then goes on to act as "mind reader," saying I hate niche, which I probably have more niche bottles than 90% or more of BN members! And even there, plenty of people now seem to be finding that niche is too "chemical" as well (the recent NST post by Kevin is just one "high profile" example). I'm wondering if there is now a kind of niche signature which involves a lot of certain chemicals, because my limited experience with recent niche is not enough to make such a judgment. Whether I like Magman better than Stash, a CdG incense scent, the Durbano reviewed by Kevin, etc. is not relevant to others, unless they have decided that they have similar sensitivities or preferences. I fail to see what the issue is here. These are just smells. If I tend to like "super cheapo" smells more than niche ones, generally-speaking, why is that a concern of anyone else? If you like niche, keep buying it. I keep acquiring niche bottles myself, though once in a while the chemicals are too strong (just as sometimes happens with super cheapo blind buys), and if it seemed as though niche was going with too much of the chemicals I can't tolerate in large amounts I'd be a lot more careful with swapping for them.

 

[Bigsly]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

From reading this thread and some of your other posts, your argument seems to be: 1. that price is an inaccurate metric for determining fragrance quality, and 2. in most cases you can find a less expensive scent that is superior.

Do I have that right?

1. You would have to define "high quality" first. To some it means the use of expensive naturals, while to others it means an "artful" composition. My thought is that some niche companies think there is a kind of nicheade (as I said about "Guerlainade") that they use as a base, which can include lots of iso e super, cashmeran, "white" musks, etc., and that Stash may be a good example of this. Also, if a super cheapo company copies a niche scent that and uses ingredients that I find "natural-smelling," why shouldn't I save the money? And of course if I don't like the scent, why should l care if it is "high quality?" I'm not going to wear it if I don't like the smell !

2. You can only decide what is "superior" to you. I prefer variety (whereas others want a "signature scent), which is why I have such extensive sales and swap lists. This allows me to swap off things I don't think I'll wear for something that I might. However, I don't want others to follow my lead if they don't have the same experiences as I do. Kevin at NST seems to be having some of the same issues I have with niche, but he has a lot more experience with sampling niche over the last few years, so I'd like to know how others with that kind of experience have found recent niche. Older niche seems to be a lot more "natural," except for obvious "iso e super monsters," etc., but while I would not want to give up those bottles in my collection, I still only wear them once in a while because if I wear a scent often it becomes boring and I may become sensitized to certain aroma chemicals (as I think would be the case for scents with a lot of dihyrdromyrcenol in them, for example).

 

[dougczar]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

With niche samples, it's whatever comes my way. I don't go out of my way to acquire them.

I am guessing the ones that "come your way" do so because someone else didn't really want them. That may be a red flag. I can only suggest you make a bit of an effort rather than just being tied to what others are willing to throw your way. There are a lot of sites that sell all sorts of various niche samples from new releases. It will require a small investment, but if you do your homework, you should be able to land more hits than misses.


And you mentioned Durbano... I wouldn't base my opinion on niche in general based on one blogger's opinion of a few random scents. And wasn't Durbano the one who tried to raise money through a kickstarter last year? Perhaps he wasn't able to raise the money, so he just used some cheap crap, threw it together, and called it a day lol. -- However - perhaps the last 12 months has seen an uptick in the use of some of these due to scrambling to comply with the new IFRA guidelines. Hopefully they will continue to re-work them to remove them when they can find better alternatives.

And you can't even remotely take CdG seriously if you are looking to avoid "synthetic or chemical". Nor are they "niche" - but that's a whole other topic.


Anyway, to answer your original question... I think there are plenty of "niche" scents released in the last few years that aren't overloaded with the typical chemicals that you are referring to. But many are. Your chances of that chemical smell is much higher in designers however. I wouldn't know about cheapos though - I only own a few that would fit in that category.

 

[purecaramel]

Re: Niche samplers: what percentage do you find to be too "synthetic" or "chemical" ?

Percentage Niche? Probably 10%.
Percentage Designer? More.