New, simple perfume formula from Matt

[mattmeleg]

Mouse De Sax:
2g geranium
1g anise
1g oakmoss
1g bergamot
.5g labdanum
.25g galbanum
.5g civet 3%
1 drop aggarwood P.A.
.1g hex 3 cis 10%


Top
2g Bergmot
2g pink grapefruit
2g linalool
.5g ylang ylang


Middle
1g Rose Otto
1g berryflor
.75g jasmine specialty
.5g ylang extra
.50g sandalwood 230 givco
2.5g vetiver double distilled 10%
.5g velvetone 470


Base
.5g vanillin
.5g tonquitone musk
.5g sandalore
.5g sandwood givco 470
.5g alpha ionone 3%
2g Vetiver 10%
1g Mouse de Sax
1g Galaxolide 50%

You can definitely add :
- orange blossom accord
- ionones (violet/orris powders)
- ambrettolide
- fruity florals *especially plum/prune accords

 

[Alysoun]

Matt, you might find Gido's contributions to this thread helpful in relation to chypres, starting with his post #44 and its continuation #64. http://www.basenotes.net/threads/271341-Help-with-selecting-aromachemicals-please

 

[mattmeleg]

Matt, you might find Gido's contributions to this thread helpful in relation to chypres, starting with his post #44 and its continuation #64. http://www.basenotes.net/threads/271341-Help-with-selecting-aromachemicals-please

Thanks
I have most of the aromatic chemicals listed in that forum...
I used mostly naturals in this formula to purposely recreate a vintage-type, dense-floral, yet powdery scent.

Modern aromatic chemical perfumes have a very diffusive, very bright scent to them, the florals and middle notes of moderns
typically explode out of the bottle. Not here, the above formula has a particular dense scent that rests closer to the skin.

If you`d like to recreate this formula with a larger more modern diffusion,
then add some hedione, possibly a couple drops of lavender and up the musks like galaxolide.

You can also think of adding some iso-e-super. Synthetics will definitely give this scent more diffusion.
The above formula is merely a suggestion, a starting place. Please feel free to add as many synthetics as you like

I wouldn't really call the above a chypres, its kinda wimpy on the oak moss...
its more like a slightly fruity fantasy floral... nearing to an oriental

 

[Alysoun]

Thanks
I have most of the aromatic chemicals listed in that forum...
I used mostly naturals in this formula to purposely recreate a vintage-type, thick and crowded, yet powdery scent.

Modern aromatic chemical perfumes have a very diffusive, very bright scent to them,
the above formula has a particular dense scent.

If you`d like to recreate this formula with a larger more modern diffusion,
then add some hedione, possibly a couple drops of lavender and up the musks like galaxolide.

You can also think of adding some iso-e-super. Synthetics will definitely give this scent more diffusion.
The above formula is merely a suggestion, a starting place. Please feel free to add as many synthetics as you like

I wasn't referring you to the a/c recommendations but to Gido's suggestions in relation to beginning to build a chypre. I think it was naturals-oriented.

 

[mattmeleg]

I wasn't referring you to the a/c recommendations but to Gido's suggestions in relation to beginning to build a chypre. I think it was naturals-oriented.

Cool, will check it out!
I have 3 or 4 Chypre base accords bottled away but I can definitely always learn more!
M

 

[gandhajala]

Mouse De Sax:
2g geranium
1g anise
1g oakmoss
1g bergamot
.5g labdanum
.25g galbanum
.5g civet 3%
1 drop aggarwood P.A.
.1g hex 3 cis 10%
...

Not sure how you came up with this, but Mousse de Saxe is built around isobutyl quinoline.

 

[mattmeleg]

Not sure how you came up with this, but Mousse de Saxe is built around isobutyl quinoline.

Yes, you are correct, isobutyl quinoline was traditionally used in Mousse de Saxe
And if you don`t have any isobutyl quinoline you can replace it with castoreum.
http://perfumeshrine.blogspot.ca/2011/12/mousse-de-saxe-base-creation-history.html

Try mixing my formula, and smell and you`ll see that it still fits the odour profile of Mousse De Saxe

Dark,
mossy
sweet.
liquorish
green


You make a good point **I may add castoreum, and leaf alcohol to my bottle of Mousse De Saxe.
For me, this is an endless exercise, I make up bases - and refine them as I go.

 

[gandhajala]

^ I'm not a perfumer, but looking at your materials I can't help think it is a long way off the actual Mousse de Saxe specialty.
For that reason, I'd suggest giving it a different name and, if you want Mousse de Saxe for your formula, order some of Christine's re-creation (assuming it is still available).

 

[David Ruskin]

Yes, you are correct, isobutyl quinoline was traditionally used in Mousse de Saxe
And if you don`t have any isobutyl quinoline you can replace it with castoreum.
http://perfumeshrine.blogspot.ca/2011/12/mousse-de-saxe-base-creation-history.html

Try mixing my formula, and smell and you`ll see that it still fits the odour profile of Mousse De Saxe

Dark,
mossy
sweet.
liquorish
green


You make a good point **I may add castoreum, and leaf alcohol to my bottle of Mousse De Saxe.
For me, this is an endless exercise, I make up bases - and refine them as I go.

No you can't, they smell nothing like each other.

 

[mattmeleg]

^ I'm not a perfumer, but looking at your materials I can't help think it is a long way off the actual Mousse de Saxe specialty.
For that reason, I'd suggest giving it a different name and, if you want Mousse de Saxe for your formula, order some of Christine's re-creation (assuming it is still available).

There are several variations and formulas for Mousse De Saxe - even here on base notes.
There are several more variation (perhaps dozens) on the internet.
This particular formula (which is made mostly from naturals) is from a well respected (American) perfumer.

 

[mattmeleg]

No you can't, they smell nothing like each other.

isobutyl quinoline and castoreum smell NOTHING like each other David?
Not even if the goodscent suggests they do? Perhaps the goodscentcompany is erroneous?
http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1006851.html

Perhaps David is more well versed in perfumery then the collective minds behind thegoodscentcompany database,
a database which thousands of perfumers turn to from around the world, on a nearly daily basis.

From now forth wards, most of the worlds perfumers should turn to David for advice, and not the goodscentcompany

 

[Nightowl]

isobutyl quinoline and castoreum smell NOTHING like each other David?
Not even if the goodscent suggests they do? Perhaps the goodscentcompany is erroneous?
http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1006851.html

Perhaps David is more well versed in perfumery then the collective minds behind thegoodscentcompany database,
a database which thousands of perfumers turn to from around the world, on a nearly daily basis.

From now forth wards, most of the worlds perfumers should turn to David for advice, and not the goodscentcompany

A website with a million people can't tell me what my nose smells. I have both materials right here and they are not even remotely similar aside from the fact that I find them both unpleasant on their own.
And for your future reference, I have found quite a few inconsistencies on that website. It is generally a good source and I use it a lot but it does have mistakes here and there. Anyway, isobutyl quinoline and castoreum are like night and day.

 

[David Ruskin]

isobutyl quinoline and castoreum smell NOTHING like each other David?
Not even if the goodscent suggests they do? Perhaps the goodscentcompany is erroneous?
http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1006851.html

Perhaps David is more well versed in perfumery then the collective minds behind thegoodscentcompany database,
a database which thousands of perfumers turn to from around the world, on a nearly daily basis.

From now forth wards, most of the worlds perfumers should turn to David for advice, and not the goodscentcompany

I have not looked at the Good Scents' opinion, I do not have to. I have smelled and used both iso Butyl Quinoline, and various Castoreum bases, as well as genuine Castorium,and I know that IBQ , which is bitter green, and Castoreum, which is animalic and leathery, do not smell the same, or even similar. If you were to take a fragrance containing IBQ and replaced it with a similar amount of any Castoreum, you would notice the difference. Please do not be sarcastic with me when I express my opinion, an opinion that has formed over many years of Perfumery.

 

[David Ruskin]

A website with a million people can't tell me what my nose smells. I have both materials right here and they are not even remotely similar aside from the fact that I find them both unpleasant on their own.
And for your future reference, I have found quite a few inconsistencies on that website. It is generally a good source and I use it a lot but it does have mistakes here and there. Anyway, isobutyl quinoline and castoreum are like night and day.

Thank you for that, and for pointing out the obvious; that it is better to smell something and make up your own mind, rather than reading about somebody else's opinion.

 

[Risenformen.com]

isobutyl quinoline and castoreum smell NOTHING like each other David?
Not even if the goodscent suggests they do? Perhaps the goodscentcompany is erroneous?
http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1006851.html

Perhaps David is more well versed in perfumery then the collective minds behind thegoodscentcompany database,
a database which thousands of perfumers turn to from around the world, on a nearly daily basis.

From now forth wards, most of the worlds perfumers should turn to David for advice, and not the goodscentcompany

From a neutral standpoint, I will say that (from my personal experiences) TGSC is a immensely helpful resource. However, I wouldn't take everything there as gospel. Numerous times have I found information there to be "off" or just not entirely accurate. Though I don't doubt that perfumers around the world access this daily, I'd have to believe there are much better resources (not free) that seasoned perfumers turn to before this. Nevertheless, the absolute best thing about TGSC is that it exist.

 

[mattmeleg]

I have not looked at the Good Scents' opinion, I do not have to. I have smelled and used both iso Butyl Quinoline, and various Castoreum bases, as well as genuine Castorium,and I know that IBQ , which is bitter green, and Castoreum, which is animalic and leathery, do not smell the same, or even similar. If you were to take a fragrance containing IBQ and replaced it with a similar amount of any Castoreum, you would notice the difference. Please do not be sarcastic with me when I express my opinion, an opinion that has formed over many years of Perfumery.

David I was`t being sarcastic,
you are clearly the most skilled and successful perfumer on the base notes forum and you deserve far more respect and recognition for your accomplishment.

 

[mattmeleg]

I have found quite a few inconsistencies on that website. It is generally a good source and I use it a lot but it does have mistakes here and there. Anyway, isobutyl quinoline and castoreum are like night and day.

Thanks for letting me know Nightowl, I`m just a beginner and I appreciate you sharing your experience with me.
I will definitely cross reference data from thegoodscentcompany from now on.

 

[pkiler]

isobutyl quinoline you can replace with castoreum.

To echo David, Uh, No.

 

[mattmeleg]

To echo David, Uh, No.

David wrote castoreum and isobutyl quinoline "smell nothing like each other."

I have castoreum here, on my desk... which I know smells like leather.

1). Pellwall says isobutyl quinoline smells of leather
https://pellwall.com/product/isobutyl-quinoline/

2). thegoodscentcompany says isobutyl quinoline smells of leather
http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1006851.html

Isobutyl quinoline may NOT be able to act as a replacement for castoreum....
because isobutyl quinoline may have a sharp green scent to it...

However,
My assumption was, that castoreum and isobutyl quinoline MUST share some similar odour profile aspects, no?
Namely they both have "leathery," aspects? *Or is both Pellwall and thegoodscentcompany completely incorrect?


If isobutyl quinoline has NO leather aspects to it,
then I must conclude that Pellwall and thegoodscentcompany are completely off, and that I am foolish to trust such websites.
On the other hand, if both isobutyl quinoline and castoreum have leather notes, then David assessment that isobutyl quinoline
smells "nothing," like castoreum is incorrect.

Who is incorrect? Is it Pellwall or is it David?
Simply; does isobutyl quinoline have a leather aspect to it, or does it not?


Conclusively,
If isobutyl quinoline has zero leather note - then David is correct.
If isobutyl quinoline has leather notes - then Pellwall is correct.

 

[Alysoun]

In spite of Chris's "disambiguation", I'm still unclear about the scent profile of the (two?) isobutyl quinolines and some other quinolines such as isopropyl quinoline. Could somebody who knows them describe the differences please? It sounds like Matt is confusing the green one (Pyralone, I think) with some other, more leathery quinoline.

 

[mattmeleg]

In spite of Chris's "disambiguation", I'm still unclear about the scent profile of the (two?) isobutyl quinolines and some other quinolines such as isopropyl quinoline. Could somebody who knows them describe the differences please? It sounds like Matt is confusing the green one (Pyralone, I think) with some other, more leathery quinoline.

1). Pellwall says isobutyl quinoline smells of leather
https://pellwall.com/product/isobutyl-quinoline/

2). thegoodscentcompany says isobutyl quinoline smells of leather
http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1006851.html


I`m not sure what I`m getting confused, because
both reputable sources say there is a leathery aspect to isobutyl quinoline.

 

[Alysoun]

OK then it's me that's confused. But I'd still like to know how the two isobutyl quinolines with different CAS numbers compare as Chris merely says they are not the same. And how they compare scentwise to the other quinolines such as butyl quinoline secondary and isopropyl quinoline.

I seem to remember Hermitage advertising one of the quinolines with a picture of leather; I don't remember which it was.

Ultimately Matt we're going to have to smell them for ourselves and make up our own minds. I do know what castoreum smells like and it isn't bitter green (to my nose).

 

[Clare30]

Yes, both isobutyl quinoline and castoreum are leathery, but they are nothing like eachother.

It's like saying rose and jasmine are both floral, it's true, but they can't replace eachother.

 

[David Ruskin]

David wrote castoreum and isobutyl quinoline "smell nothing like each other."

I have castoreum here, on my desk... which I know smells like leather.

1). Pellwall says isobutyl quinoline smells of leather
https://pellwall.com/product/isobutyl-quinoline/

2). thegoodscentcompany says isobutyl quinoline smells of leather
http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1006851.html

Isobutyl quinoline may NOT be able to act as a replacement for castoreum....
because isobutyl quinoline may have a sharp green scent to it...

However,
My assumption was, that castoreum and isobutyl quinoline MUST share some similar odour profile aspects, no?
Namely they both have "leathery," aspects? *Or is both Pellwall and thegoodscentcompany completely incorrect?


If isobutyl quinoline has NO leather aspects to it,
then I must conclude that Pellwall and thegoodscentcompany are completely off, and that I am foolish to trust such websites.
On the other hand, if both isobutyl quinoline and castoreum have leather notes, then David assessment that isobutyl quinoline
smells "nothing," like castoreum is incorrect.

Who is incorrect? Is it Pellwall or is it David?
Simply; does isobutyl quinoline have a leather aspect to it, or does it not?


Conclusively,
If isobutyl quinoline has zero leather note - then David is correct.
If isobutyl quinoline has leather notes - then Pellwall is correct.

Do not change the goal posts. Your original statement was that you could replace Castoreum with Iso Butyl Quinoline. I said that they smell nothing like each other.
Iso Butyl Quinoline has a leather aspect, it was used in Bandit. Castoreum has a leather aspect, it was used in Coco. Suederal has a leather aspect, and smells nothing like iso Butyl Quinoline or Castoreum.

Iso Butyl Quinline and Castoreum are not interchangeable. By the way IBQ is a simple chemical ( albeit with isomers), any Castoreum is a complex mixture of chemicals. May I suggest you get some IBQ and compare it with the Castoreum you have, if you have not already done this.

 

[David Ruskin]

David I was`t being sarcastic,
you are clearly the most skilled and successful perfumer on the base notes forum and you deserve far more respect and recognition for your accomplishment.

That sounds sarcastic.

 

[David Ruskin]

In spite of Chris's "disambiguation", I'm still unclear about the scent profile of the (two?) isobutyl quinolines and some other quinolines such as isopropyl quinoline. Could somebody who knows them describe the differences please? It sounds like Matt is confusing the green one (Pyralone, I think) with some other, more leathery quinoline.

All of the quinolines used in Perfumery have a green, bitter and leathery smell. They all smell different. I cannot give an accurate description of the differences, sorry.

 

[Alysoun]

Thank you, David.

 

[Serg Ixygon]

Buy also m-cresol and safraleine. both are leathery.

 

[Clare30]

I think even amongst the quinolines, there are marked differences. The only quinoline that was used orginally for mousse de saxe, I believe ( do correct me if I'm wrong if someone knows more) is owned by Symrise. I think it's used in the mousse de saxe base sold by Perfumer Supply house, although they don't sell the quinoline itself, but a different one tnat does liken in the description to castor - I haven't smelled it so can't say.. .But yes, generally i think the main component of the quinoline used for mousse de saxe is the sharp, green leather aspects that connect and enhance the moss notes, as opposed to castoreum that has more warm, rounded leather/amber notes.

The formula you have posted in #1 contains neither castoreum nor quinoline as far as I can see (?)

 

[Serg Ixygon]

Symrise does sell two kind of IBQ itself.

 

[mattmeleg]

Ultimately Matt we're going to have to smell them for ourselves and make up our own minds. ).

I completely agree

 

[mattmeleg]

All of the quinolines used in Perfumery have a green, bitter and leathery smell. They all smell different. I cannot give an accurate description of the differences, sorry.

David, you wrote:
castoreum and isobutyl quinoline "smell nothing like each other."
How can castoreum, which has a leather note - and isobutyl quinoline, which according to you has a "bitter and leathery smell,"
smell NOTHING like each other?


I am only a beginner perfumer, are you trying to confuse me on purpose?

 

[pierpaolo72]

Matt, i can give you an example: both geraniol and pea are described as floral, rose but they are very different. I'm sure you may find in your future hundreds of example like this.

 

[Sober]

I hope this will not offend but to me castoreum smells like cow shit

 

[David Ruskin]

David, you wrote:
castoreum and isobutyl quinoline "smell nothing like each other."
How can castoreum, which has a leather note - and isobutyl quinoline, which according to you has a "bitter and leathery smell,"
smell NOTHING like each other?


I am only a beginner perfumer, are you trying to confuse me on purpose?

Smell the two side by side, you will see that they smell nothing like each other. Don't split hairs, don't move the goal posts, just admit that your original statement was wrong. Why would I want to confuse you "on purpose"? What a sad thing to accuse me of. I have spent quite a few years posting here on Basenotes trying very hard not to confuse but to help. I could be insulted by your accusation, but will not.

 

[Serg Ixygon]

David, your patience has no boundaries. If people don't want to spend $10 for buying AC to smell, why you should waste you time explain how does it smell like?

 

[julian35]

delete

 

[xii]

Mousse de Saxe is a base used in the main formula which consists of three components: top, middle, bottom.

Do you have a name for this formula?.

Yeah, could you name it (optimally in the thread name) and shortly describe it.

 

[mattmeleg]

A website with a million people can't tell me what my nose smells. I have both materials right here and they are not even remotely similar aside from the fact that I find them both unpleasant on their own.
And for your future reference, I have found quite a few inconsistencies on that website. It is generally a good source and I use it a lot but it does have mistakes here and there. Anyway, isobutyl quinoline and castoreum are like night and day.

Like night and day?
But apparently they both have leather notes, no?

 

[mattmeleg]

Matt, I wonder if you could answer a couple of questions for me?
You list 4 headings in your formula. Mousse de Saxe, Top, Middle, Bottom.
Can you explain those headings for me?
What is your logic? Why is the Mousse de Saxe listed separately?

Do you have a name for this formula?

You are just starting working with the perfume materials, a beginner, and I can sense that you are very eager. You are at the beginning of this learning? Am I correct in those assumptions? Had you worked with any of the perfuming materials previous to joining Bassnotes in August 2017? Please understand that I am not trying to be patronising, I want to understand the level of your experience.

Julian35, complete beginner here
I just wonder how someone could say ingredient a and ingredient b have nothing in common, when they share a common (in this case leather) note?

Knowing that I am just a beginner,
I wonder if David was patronizing me?

He could have written "while castoreum and the other material DO share a common note, I believe they are not interchangeable."

Wouldn't this be more accurate and less condisending of him? But instead he said they have NOTHING in common....

Which makes me believe that David was purposely eggagerating their difference, to a) put me down and b). Raise himself above myself, Pellwall and thegoodscentcompany.

Am I incorrect here?