Musk Ketone and Benzyl Benzoate

AdamE

Well-known member
Jul 15, 2019
I discovered that Musk Ketone doesnt do well in alcohol, and then confirmed with the search function here. Saw some recommendations for using Benzyl Benzoate instead.

My question: what sort of ratio should I be using here? How much ketone to BB can I get away with, and can I then dilute the Ketone/BB in alcohol at that point?

I'd like to use only as much BB is necessary to get the Musk into solution and then dilute that down to 10% or less with alcohol. Is that possible?
 
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pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
Re: Musk Keytone and Benzyl Benzoate

If wanted to read the page of musk ketone on TGSC, you would see the BB solubility ratio.
25.4 gms to 100 gms benzyl benzoate
But that is probably an ideal number, and I would try at less concentration.
 

Bill Roberts

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2013
Re: Musk Keytone and Benzyl Benzoate

The minimum necessary is usually zero if you dissolve into your overall fragrance concentrate before diluting with alcohol.

As for aiming to have a dilution of only MK, BB, and alcohol, you can try such as making 20 percent in BB and then cutting to ten percent with alcohol but only trial will tell you.

Edit: If you are going to use Hedione in substantial amount in your formula anyway, and want to predissolve MK into something, I would choose Hedione over BB to predissove musk ketone, because unneeded BB can flatten your formula. Solubility in Hedione is similar to solubility in benzyl benzoate, that is to say, about 1 to 4 or 1 to 5, don't recall as it has been many years since I last predissolved MK.

You will also find that predissolving in either will take a very long time unless using some heat, e.g. 50 C or so, and preferably both stirring and heat, or sonication.

Solubility and rate of dissolution are not the same thing; in the case of BB, solubility is reasonable in the above solvents, but rate of dissolution at room temperature even with stirring is very low.
 
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Bill Roberts

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2013
Re: Musk Keytone and Benzyl Benzoate

Btw, I do realize that it is probably autocorrect, but if everyone could make special effort to never again write "key" when writing musk ketone, I would really really appreciate it.

For some reason it is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me.

Thank you!!!

EDIT: Thank you, Adam! :)
 
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AdamE

Well-known member
Jul 15, 2019
Re: Musk Keytone and Benzyl Benzoate

If wanted to read the page of musk ketone on TGSC, you would see the BB solubility ratio.
25.4 gms to 100 gms benzyl benzoate
But that is probably an ideal number, and I would try at less concentration.

I have committed myself this week to get much more comfortable with TGSC page. Thanks for the info
 

Bill Roberts

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2013
Taking this information from TGSC as Paul gave:

25.4 gms to 100 gms benzyl benzoate
1.8 gms to 100 gms alcohol (95%)

the question, as related to your question, is What would solubility be in a mixture of BB and ethanol?

I have never read a scientific analysis of this sort of question*, I expect because there really will be no mechanistically-accurate method of calculating that would be anything but quite complex and even then unlikely to really closely predict in all cases. Solvation is quite complicated.

But as a rule of thumb personally observed, I have found that oversimplified as it is, solubility of a mixture is usually not drastically different, and I think I have never observed to be better than, than the sum of solubilities in the amounts of the two solvents used.

E.g., you are going to use 100 g each of benzyl benzoate and ethanol.

On the approximation, you'd take the sum of 25.4 g (amount that can dissolve in the BB alone) and 1.8 g, so, 27.2 g.

The actual value will not be wildly different than this -- I think not, for example, 5 times less or such -- and I do not think will be higher.

As a general rule of thumb correction factor to the above, the method works better when the solubilities in the two are closer than this. Where solubility in one solvent is poor, performance of a midrange (say, 10:90 to 90:1 mixture) has in my experience often been worse than this rule of thumb would suggest.

That is why I am not confident you could first dilute in a given amount of BB and then dilute further with ethanol and not have some precipitation. You might or might not. It would take experimentation.

But you'll have a lot more mg/mL solubility than in ethanol alone, for sure, and no more than half you would in BB alone.

*EDIT: Actually that is not true, years back I read a number of papers involving the solvatochromic equation which to some extent does allow estimates of this sort of thing. But, not simple.
 
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mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
I have musk ketone at 10% in DPG, and it has crashed out as a powdery precipitate. Is it OK to heat it to 180F to get it to redissolve?
 

Bill Roberts

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2013
How fast, I don't know, but if it did it before at that concentration it will do it again.

For formulas that are going to have a good amount of Hedione anyway, Hedione is a good solvent for musk ketone. Other than that, as opinion it's best added as crystals to concentrate, or if it is needed as a dilution, it may as well be in alcohol 1% or 2%, as it doesn't ordinarily get used in formulas at huge percentage anyway.
 

HabibiGotIt

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Apr 9, 2020
Hey folks. I'm back at making perfumes and attars and want to incorporate musk ketone. Can MK be diluted into oils like sandalwood? If not, should I dilute into benzyl benzoate and then into the oil/blend of my choice?

Do I take it correctly that MK does not dilute in alcohol?

Thanks.
 

pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
Thanks. Sorry for the dumb questions - I read MK dissolves in hedione. What kind of compound is hedione?
Sometimes, it seems, that Hedione is in fact used as a solvent for some materials... It might work too... I just suggest some tests, to see what works best for you...
 

mkturker

Well-known member
May 11, 2014
In Saturday, I tried to prepare my formulation and dissolved some materials like cetalox, coumarin and ethyl vanilline. Of course Musk Ketone too. I added cetalox nearly 1/10 ratio in alcohol, 1/10 coumarin/alcohol and apparently %20 ethyl vanilline. But I forgot for musk ketone and I had been a position that I added musk ketone to alcohol(5 gr MK and 15 ml alcohol).I shaked it for a half hour but the powder was gathered bottom of bottle again after shaking.

Before read from here about Musk Ketone-Hedione relationship, I remembered that, Hedione has a characteristic in terms of its thinner direction in whole formula. I added to MK/Alcohol solution respectively 5 ml and 5 ml and shake and shake.In initial additions, Hedione didn't affect to material but after nearly 20 ml hedione to that materials, Musk Ketone dissolved.Of course I shaked it at the same time. At the end of additions the ratios were 5 gr Musk Ketone, 15 ml alcohol and 30 ml Hedione.Most of Musk Ketone cristals were dissolved. But today I noticed that some cristals (little, maybe %2-3 of whole Musk Ketone addition) bigger than first fall down in the bottle.

The result is so that, Musk Ketone can be dissolved with hedione but I can't say for now how much the ratio must be.

Most of members of this platform know about this statement that, adding materials in a formula must be in turn from thinner to thicker. So we can add our materials like Cetalox, Ambroxan, Ethyl Vanilline etc. at the end of adding other thinner materials.Or, we can add hedione first, if it is enough to disslove cristals and we can add other materials in turn thinner to thicker like firstly Hedione, Iso E Super, other oils and after them powdery ones and cristals.
 

pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
if you already know about the solubility, when making your concentrate, you start with the dry materials, and add the wet to the dry.
If you are trying to determine solubility, you can likely work backwards or forwards, doesn't make too much difference until you figure out solubility.
 

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