Musk, ISO E Super, and Hedione

mixmastermattyp

Basenotes Member
Nov 11, 2020
In what cases do you not use musks, iso e super, and/or hedione as 40%, 50%, or more of your formula? Or rather, how do you decide how much of these low-slope materials to use? The amount doesn't seem to change the fragrance much. Just the fact that they're in there at around at least 5% seems to make the difference. Is it just a way to make fragrances more difficult to decipher through GCMS by diluting the main fragrance with fillers that hardly do anything? This is the only thing i can think of. But mainly, im just interested in how y'all decide exactly how much you want to use for a fragrance. And if you ever don't use them in a fragrance and why.
 

ourmess

Basenotes Junkie
Apr 25, 2018
I kiiiiinda feel like the answer here is the same as the answer for any other material: you use it when it makes a project turn out the way you want, in whatever amount is necessary to produce that result. I'm not sure there's a universally-true answer just for those specific materials.

If you ever find yourself thinking, "why am I using this?", then make Version A with it and Version B without it, then compare them head-to-head. Then you'll know whether it was a useful addition or whether the formulation was better off without it.
 

tyriekm

Super Member
Mar 19, 2019
One of my most recent compositions last year was actually 40% ISO E Super and Hedione, in their respective propositions. I most certainly didn't use it to obfuscate GCMS analysis. I did it because it helped me achieve what I wanted to achieve.


I think the short answer here is: because it achieves the goal.
 

AJ Dave

Super Member
Aug 5, 2020
"In what cases do you not use musks, iso e super, and/or hedione as 40%, 50%, or more of your formula?"

You don't have to use them if you don't want to. Make batches of perfumes without them, and then add a little musk, iso e super, or hedione to different batches, wear them each for a day, and see if you like the difference.

"Or rather, how do you decide how much of these low-slope materials to use? The amount doesn't seem to change the fragrance much. Just the fact that they're in there at around at least 5% seems to make the difference."

Trial and error, and writing everything down. You decide what is right by how the fragrance smells and performs. This link can give you typical usage percentages as a guideline. These are not rules.

https://www.unguentarius.com/ingredient-statistics

"Is it just a way to make fragrances more difficult to decipher through GCMS by diluting the main fragrance with fillers that hardly do anything? This is the only thing i can think of."

Of course not.

"But mainly, im just interested in how y'all decide exactly how much you want to use for a fragrance. And if you ever don't use them in a fragrance and why."

These materials are not just "fillers".

Most people like perfumes that are long lasting and that have good diffusion. If you read fragrance reviews, you will see that one of the biggest complaints people have about perfumes are that "the perfume doesn't last long", as in 'all day', and that the perfume was "weak". So of you are making commercial perfumes, you have to give customers what they want and what they expect. If you are making them just for yourself, you can do whatever you prefer.
 
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mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
The following does not seem to be generally true:

The amount doesn't seem to change the fragrance much. Just the fact that they're in there at around at least 5% seems to make the difference.

IME, incremental differences at levels well above 5% of formula can make a hugely difference, depending on the context. Remember, what matters are ratios between materials at a particular point in time of progression of evaporation, not percent of formula per se. I'm tuning two different formulas right now, in one of which 10% of the same musk blend is turning out to be substantially too little, and in the other substantially too much.
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
"In what cases do you not use musks, iso e super, and/or hedione as 40%, 50%, or more of your formula?"

You don't have to use them if you don't want to. Make batches of perfumes without them, and then add a little musk, iso e super, or hedione to different batches, wear them each for a day, and see if you like the difference.

"Or rather, how do you decide how much of these low-slope materials to use? The amount doesn't seem to change the fragrance much. Just the fact that they're in there at around at least 5% seems to make the difference."

Trial and error, and writing everything down. You decide what is right by how the fragrance smells and performs. This link can give you typical usage percentages as a guideline. These are not rules.

https://www.unguentarius.com/ingredient-statistics

"Is it just a way to make fragrances more difficult to decipher through GCMS by diluting the main fragrance with fillers that hardly do anything? This is the only thing i can think of."

Of course not.

"But mainly, im just interested in how y'all decide exactly how much you want to use for a fragrance. And if you ever don't use them in a fragrance and why."

These materials are not just "fillers".

I personally prefer to use musks sparingly, or not at all. I can smell them all. They smell nice, but I don't like how a lot of them they make me feel warm and stuffy, and I don't like how the smell lasts forever and gets on everything it touches. Everyone has their taste.

I can smell a closed bottle of iso e super or hedione very well. My cats can do the same thing. These are not just "fillers". They all smell unique, and they are extremely diffusive and they last a long time. You can also add in ambroxan and methyl ionone and sandalwood ACs in there. Everywhere I go, I can smell people's sillage of ambroxan, sandalwood ACs, iso e super, and hedione, and also this "soapy" smell that I haven't quite identified yet, and this lemon smell with an unbelievable sillage.

Most people like perfumes that are long lasting and that have good diffusion, even if that not my preference. If you read fragrance reviews, you will see that one of the biggest complaints people have about perfumes are that "the perfume doesn't last long", as in 'all day', and that the perfume was "weak". So of you are making commercial perfumes, you have to give customers what they want and what they expect. If you are making them just for yourself, you can do whatever you prefer.

My sense is that contemporary "beast mode" fragrances achieve killer longevity & strength, while still smelling good, by appropriately balancing very large doses of high impact materials. For example the BR540 drydown accord balances staggering amounts of ambrox, evernyl, and ethyl maltol. Pick any two of them in those doses & it would be absolutely horrendous.
 

Casper_grassy

Basenotes Dependent
May 5, 2020
I genuinely believe hedione and ies are used at those doses to cheapen a fragrance. I understand if it “achieves your goal”, but 40% seems like an awful lot of wasted space IMO.

I also really dislike hedione so I take what I say with a grain of salt though via experimentation, I have good reason not to. It doesn’t do anything to a fragrance but plops its fat ass over everything else, it’s like any salad or anything you add cucumbers to, it’ll just stain everything with cucumber debris and ruin it. My bad, I need to stop talking.
 

Roeletti

Basenotes Member
Jan 26, 2022
These ingredients are almost everywhere. But you do not have to use them, as stated before.

That said, i love using them. But i also use a lot of Alfa Ionone, it seems to like Galaxolide, Hedione and Iso e Super.
Most of my trial blends have:
10-15% Hedione
10-15% Iso e Super-Timbersilk-Sylvamber
8-13% Galaxolide (so there is room for different musks)
8-13% Alfa ionone-Alfa isomethylionone-Gamma ionone

So yes it's great to use. But when i finish a trial blend, they are the first to get changed!
When i really want to make something to wear, wearing is the most important part.
I would make 3-4 versions with different amounts of these ingredients. And then 2-3 blends with way less of these.

All just to see what works. Every blend is different and needs different amounts for a good wear.
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
I'd say musk, Iso E Super an Hedione are primarily effect materials. The musks have evolved to being an important part of the fragrance itself. With the Grosjman accord Iso E Super did the same. But in the primary use is for effect: musks to enhance tenacity, Iso E Super to harmonize and boost woods and the like and Hedione flowers. Salicylates are in the same category, you use them primarily for effect and less for smell.

Testing for the effect takes somewhat more time than just sniffing a blotter. Improved tenacity takes time to detect, but harmonization can be detected better. But it's also difficult to 'measure' or express these effects. So what other posters already said is very true: you use these materials until you are satisfied with the effect.

Lyral was almost 'killed' by IFRA and Lilial turned out to be toxic. But these materials can turn even urine into a perfume so to say. So looking for alternatives it is logical people turn to other well known boosters, harmonisers and the like. Hedione up front, as it has not that much smell of its own you can overdose it without penalty. Ultra small amounts of Ambrocenide can boost hydroxycitronellal, but you'll be punished for overdosing it. Ditto for sandalwood molecules, which sometimes seem out of place until you take a look at the molecular structure which shows similarity with Lily of the Valley AC's. In such case sandalwood materials are not in place to fill or confuse GC/MS, but to act as a far more specific booster than let's say Hedione with a broader working spectrum.

By the way: confusing GC/MS is not easy and any EO would fit that purpose much better, as even the simplest EO contains tens to hundreds of molecules that will generate peaks in a GC/MS spectrum. IES or Hedione are far more easy to pick out, that is what imho fully rules them out as confusers.

There are a number of categorical statements here that simply aren't correct to the extent they are asserted as unqualified generalities. For example:

(1) Multiple salicylates have quite strong & well-appreciated affirmative scents & aren't used just for "effects", including amyl/isoamyl (whose strong elegant scent is key to the fougère structure), cis-3 hexenyl, isobutyl, and methyl.

(2) Hedione cannot as a general rule (altho perhaps it can in some contexts) "overdose it without penalty", and if dosed injudiciously can absolutely puree a composition & turn it to soup you can drink thru a straw.
 
May 18, 2021
I genuinely believe hedione and ies are used at those doses to cheapen a fragrance. I understand if it “achieves your goal”, but 40% seems like an awful lot of wasted space IMO.

I also really dislike hedione so I take what I say with a grain of salt though via experimentation, I have good reason not to. It doesn’t do anything to a fragrance but plops its fat ass over everything else, it’s like any salad or anything you add cucumbers to, it’ll just stain everything with cucumber debris and ruin it. My bad, I need to stop talking.

sorry to resurrect an older thread but i was specifically searching for anecdotes on hedione bc i've noticed this exact effect, although i didn't know what was making all of these white floral perfumes smell overwhelmingly like pollenous, angry soap until i got my raw materials a few weeks ago. i smelled hedione on its own for the first time and i was like THIS IS IT. THIS IS THAT HEAVY SOAP THING THAT'S RUINED EVERYTHING.

i used it for the first time last week in a self-study formula i found that had 20% hedione at a 15% dilution. the perfume was decently strong before i added the hedione, but it squashed everything down to the bottom of the scent, especially the florals.

i did a test a few days ago where i added it to a custom formula that i didn't like. it was already ruined so i figured it was worth playing around. the formula had some sweet elements like raspberry ketone & ethyl maltol but they weren't a large contributor. i added hedione in .200g increments. the progression went like this:
  1. no hedione - spicy jasmine-rose musk
  2. + .200g hedione - scratchy soap with rose
  3. + .400g hedione - soapy cotton candy that existed in the same room as a rose once
  4. + .600g hedione - did you know that the atmosphere is 78% nitrogen hedione and 21% oxygen hedione?

husband had a similar reaction to .200g, thinking it smelled kinda scratchy and soapy, but then at .400g everything seemed to come back into balance for him, although idk if that was just like olfactory fatigue where he stopped smelling the hedione. i suspect it fatigues my smellibuds too but seems to completely hijack them. i wish i knew why - the way everyone else describes it sounds so lovely but i know it's a rude dude.
 

Irfan Patel

Basenotes Member
Nov 30, 2021
Frankly speaking I too don't like hedione. It dampens the formula. Instead, i started using Jasmin AC to get the Jasmin note and the overall fragrance is lovely.
 

Najengi

Basenotes Member
May 31, 2021
I wouldn’t ‘throw the hedione out with the bathwater’ just yet… Perhaps, try adding it in incremental doses to something that isn’t already as you say 'ruined' and see what happens then.

There’s a good reason why it is a must buy in the beginner’s perfume palette, and also a very good reason why it is a highly regarded material by master perfumers – for example, when asked what his favourite 3 aroma chemicals to work with were, master perfumer Jean Claude Ellena replied: ‘Hedione, Hedione and Hedione’.: https://www.fragrantica.com/news/I-...-Jealousy-and-His-Newest-Rose-Cuir-12731.html. So, I was certainly left curious and intrigued to explore Hedione more thoroughly.

I’ve so far experienced two sides of Hedione: it’s gentle light exalting effect with florals and its increasing the longevity and pizzazz of citruses (quite breath-taking effects); and also this ‘flattening effect’ that has been mentioned. So, I conducted a simple experiment a few months ago using Ylang Extra @ 1% and Hedione @ 10%: Keeping the Ylang Extra dose constant, I increased the Hedione in increments and found that under 20% in incremental doses it opened up the Ylang and gave it more space to breathe and showcase its different aspects/layers (that ‘blooming effect’ people talk about). Interestingly, when Hedione rose above 20%, the Ylang started to wither and lose its distinctive Ylang character and become an increasingly generic non-descript floral. I did not go above 40% with Hedione in this experiment, so I cannot comment on what happens above this amount. My interpretation of my own results is that what appeared to happen with the Hedione isn’t so much that it was being a heavy-weight and weighing things down, but rather more of a twinkle-toes that added too much light and air and watery transparency beyond a certain point leaving the Ylang devoid of shape and character.
 
May 18, 2021
I wouldn’t ‘throw the hedione out with the bathwater’ just yet… Perhaps, try adding it in incremental doses to something that isn’t already as you say 'ruined' and see what happens then.

lol, it was only 'ruined' in the sense that it was an attempt at a floral accord that didn't turn out the way i wanted. i'm frequently dramatic and hyperbolic about these things. my husband tried the incremental variations and thought they were nice enough - he's not as sensitive to hedione as i am, i suppose.

i tried hedione again this morning in an orange blossom and tuberose accord. it was less than 0.15% of the total perfume. the perfume was gorgeous at first, but as it settled into the heart, there was a distinctive soapiness behind the florals. after the drydown i was left with just a soapy smell. the other materials were very high impact so i was surprised it stuck out so much to me.

i think it must be genetic variation on an olfactory receptor, maybe similar/related to the soapy aldehydes genetic variant. aldehydic perfumes are often incomprehensibly soapy to me; i can definitely smell the soapy aldehydes in cilantro, although it doesn't impact my perception of its taste, and raw celery is very soapy as well. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ so it goes. out with the bathwater, then, hedione - get thee to a nunnery, go!

Frankly speaking I too don't like hedione. It dampens the formula. Instead, i started using Jasmin AC to get the Jasmin note and the overall fragrance is lovely.

oh interesting! i looked up "Jasmin AC" and didn't find anything - is there another name for it?
 
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pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
oh interesting! i looked up "Jasmin AC" and didn't find anything - is there another name for it?
I think that he meant a Plural number of Jasmin AC's. Jasmine, as a Natural, takes several/many materials to accomplish.
BUT, he may indeed have a single material in mind, but did not state it.
 
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Irfan Patel

Basenotes Member
Nov 30, 2021
lol, it was only 'ruined' in the sense that it was an attempt at a floral accord that didn't turn out the way i wanted. i'm frequently dramatic and hyperbolic about these things. my husband tried the incremental variations and thought they were nice enough - he's not as sensitive to hedione as i am, i suppose.

i tried hedione again this morning in an orange blossom and tuberose accord. it was less than 0.15% of the total perfume. the perfume was gorgeous at first, but as it settled into the heart, there was a distinctive soapiness behind the florals. after the drydown i was left with just a soapy smell. the other materials were very high impact so i was surprised it stuck out so much to me.

i think it must be genetic variation on an olfactory receptor, maybe similar/related to the soapy aldehydes genetic variant. aldehydic perfumes are often incomprehensibly soapy to me; i can definitely smell the soapy aldehydes in cilantro, although it doesn't impact my perception of its taste, and raw celery is very saopy as well. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ so it goes. out with the bathwater, then, hedione - get thee to a nunnery, go!



oh interesting! i looked up "Jasmin AC" and didn't find anything - is there another name for it?
Rightly said by Paul in his supporting comment. Yes, there are number of ACs for Jasmine which you will have to find out that suits you best. You can also ask the senior members here on the forum who will guide you more accurately as i am still in learning mode 😄
 
May 18, 2021
ahhhh gotcha! i use jasmine absolutes for jasmine proper because it's my favorite floral, but for a jasmine-like quality, i love indolene for imparting headiness or the honeyed note of jasmine grandiflorum. i also have jasmone cis, jasmonyl, jasmolactone, and dihydrojasmone lactone haha. 🙈 i might have a jasmine problem. the latter few almost share a hedione-like soapiness but not quite as bad!
 

Irfan Patel

Basenotes Member
Nov 30, 2021
ahhhh gotcha! i use jasmine absolutes for jasmine proper because it's my favorite floral, but for a jasmine-like quality, i love indolene for imparting headiness or the honeyed note of jasmine grandiflorum. i also have jasmone cis, jasmonyl, jasmolactone, and dihydrojasmone lactone haha. 🙈 i might have a jasmine problem. the latter few almost share a hedione-like soapiness but not quite as bad!
It's good to see that you have lots of great stuffs for Jasmin yeah 😃
Now what you'll have to do is seek proper advise from the senior members on the forum on how you can formulate them and create a good Jasmin Accord 🙂
 

Najengi

Basenotes Member
May 31, 2021
so it goes. out with the bathwater, then, hedione - get thee to a nunnery, go!

I still would keep it and try it with other types of materials such as citrus, fruits, greens and herbaceous (if you haven't already that is) and see if anything different happens for you, or else shove it to the back of your stash and come back to it again at a later date. There's always a chance you may get a different angle on it later down the road...

Happy Perfuming!
 

leone

Basenotes Member
Sep 24, 2020
I kiiiiinda feel like the answer here is the same as the answer for any other material: you use it when it makes a project turn out the way you want, in whatever amount is necessary to produce that result. I'm not sure there's a universally-true answer just for those specific materials.

If you ever find yourself thinking, "why am I using this?", then make Version A with it and Version B without it, then compare them head-to-head. Then you'll know whether it was a useful addition or whether the formulation was better off without it.
I Think the question is exactly this: since Hedione or Iso e super are usually used in high doses, how do you find out the right proportion? you cannot really make samples with 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 18, 20, 22, 25, 30, 40 etc...and compare them the same way you would do it with materials used in amx of 17/10 % on the total.
 

ourmess

Basenotes Junkie
Apr 25, 2018
Like I said, make a test version where you skip it completely. Compare it to whatever your Version A was. See what the impact is of going all the way down to nothing.

If the version with your original amount is overwhelmingly superior, then it sounds like your original amount was correct. If the version with none at all was overwhelmingly superior, then you know it was only making your project worse. If one is a little bit better than the other, but neither one is perfect, then make another version that's closer to whichever version was better, and try again - so if you started with 40%, and that version is a little better than the 0% test, then make another test batch that's got 25%. Or if the 0% version was better but still needed a little, then make another test that's 5%. Etc.
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
Like I said, make a test version where you skip it completely. Compare it to whatever your Version A was. See what the impact is of going all the way down to nothing.

If the version with your original amount is overwhelmingly superior, then it sounds like your original amount was correct. If the version with none at all was overwhelmingly superior, then you know it was only making your project worse. If one is a little bit better than the other, but neither one is perfect, then make another version that's closer to whichever version was better, and try again - so if you started with 40%, and that version is a little better than the 0% test, then make another test batch that's got 25%. Or if the 0% version was better but still needed a little, then make another test that's 5%. Etc.
I think maybe the question being asked is What do you reciprocally increase/decrease to keep the total formula at 100%? There are three ways I tend to go about this, depending on the context.

When adjusting from a huge baseline (as being discussed here with hedione, IES, etc), I just leave everything else alone. This keeps all of the mutual ratios of everything else unchanged & only changes the ratio of the material being experimented with to each of everything else. This will, of course, change the nominal absolute percents of formula of everything else, but that is just a matter of bookkeeping.

When adjusting smaller components, I tend to reciprocally increase/decrease amounts of a component that is relatively low impact & present in large amounts. So in a jasmine accord, if I am increasing indole by 1%, I might decrease benzyl acetate already present at 35% to 34%. While this does alter the ratio of benzyl acetate to everything else, it is by a very small amount.

When exploring specific ratios (like linalool to linalyl acetate, e.g.), I will reciprocally increase & decrease those two components, keeping everything else the same.
 

perfumer86

Basenotes Member
Feb 16, 2020
lol, it was only 'ruined' in the sense that it was an attempt at a floral accord that didn't turn out the way i wanted. i'm frequently dramatic and hyperbolic about these things. my husband tried the incremental variations and thought they were nice enough - he's not as sensitive to hedione as i am, i suppose.

i tried hedione again this morning in an orange blossom and tuberose accord. it was less than 0.15% of the total perfume. the perfume was gorgeous at first, but as it settled into the heart, there was a distinctive soapiness behind the florals. after the drydown i was left with just a soapy smell. the other materials were very high impact so i was surprised it stuck out so much to me.

i think it must be genetic variation on an olfactory receptor, maybe similar/related to the soapy aldehydes genetic variant. aldehydic perfumes are often incomprehensibly soapy to me; i can definitely smell the soapy aldehydes in cilantro, although it doesn't impact my perception of its taste, and raw celery is very soapy as well. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ so it goes. out with the bathwater, then, hedione - get thee to a nunnery, go!



oh interesting! i looked up "Jasmin AC" and didn't find anything - is there another name for it?
ur hedione must gotten bad. hedione nevers gives that soapy effect. aldehydes do and some musks. i have mixed citruses with hedione half and half and it just makes citruses more beautiful and attractive. hedione can go bad quickly, mine has. has this cheesy just unpleasant scent that influences other aromas.
 

jonah9899

New member
May 4, 2022
ur hedione must gotten bad. hedione nevers gives that soapy effect. aldehydes do and some musks. i have mixed citruses with hedione half and half and it just makes citruses more beautiful and attractive. hedione can go bad quickly, mine has. has this cheesy just unpleasant scent that influences other aromas.
I agree, either that or there's a different aromachemical in your formula causing that effect. I've dosed hedione with a heavy hand in a couple floral accords (with ylang ylang in one, rose geranium in another) and in my opinion the hedione boosts the florals and adds subtle green, diffuse, and transparent effects. I find it very inoffensive with quite a large margin for error, so to speak. That being said, I've ruined compositions and gotten a scratchy, soapy, drug store deodorant effect by using too much dihydromyrcenol. Same with beta ionone.
 
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