Making One's Own Molecule 01 (Straight Iso E Super)

ksennish

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2012
Your logic of 10ml/100ml being 100% is correct if you do it by volume. Chris is doing it by weight, which is the best way to do it. In the majority of cases (if not all), ethanol is going to be less dense than the oil you are mixing in. Ethanol is usually around .76 g/ml I believe, water being 1 g/ml, and oils vary depending on their individual density, but are typically denser than ethanol (this might be the case for all oils, but I'm not sure of that). So naturally, it will take a greater volume than 90ml of ethanol to get the 90% by weight, which is how Chris performed his calculation.



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mcervino

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Aug 14, 2013
Dear Ksennish,



First of all, thank you very much for your quick response!

I think I am starting to get the point, but could you translate this theory to a full calculation? I mean, the way you calculate this from the beginning to the end.



Thanks in advance.


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ksennish

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Jan 19, 2012
Sure. So here is the info you want to start with. I just looked these up online pretty quickly. (The temperatures for both densities are a bit different but this should be negligible for our purposes.



Density of SD-40B ethanol at 15.6 degrees celcius = .793 g/ml



Density of Iso E Super at 20 degrees celcius = .964 g/ml



I think its easier to go for 100g of liquid than say 100ml, because I can do it right on my scale - add drops of oil until I get 2 grams, then add ethanol to that until I hit 20 grams total, voila, 10% concentration. Granted 100 grams will be a bit more than 100ml just because ethanol is less dense.



So, if you want 10 grams of iso E, then you need (10 g) / (.964 g/ml) = 10.373 ml of Iso E



Then to add the remaining 90 grams of ethanol, (90 g) / (.793 g/ml) = 113.493 ml of ethanol



add the two together and you get 100g of 10% concentration Iso E, which results in 123.866 ml of liquid. If you are trying to measure out 100 ml exactly for whatever reason, just take your new mixture and measure out 100ml and you will have the extra 23 ml left over.



When I mix up my 10% bottles for experimenting, I do it all by weight right on the scale, to 20 grams, which fits nicely in 1 ounce boston round dropper bottles. Hope this helps, let me know if you have any more questions.


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ksennish

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Jan 19, 2012
Also, if you are going to do your dilutions by weight, but you want to do so by measuring volumes in test tubes or flasks, you would need to know the density of every oil you have. This would be a tedious amount of work either finding them all online, or having to calculate the density yourself, which would still require a scale. Not to mention its not the most accurate method. This is why many of us invest in a nice scale that can go down to at least .01 grams, if not .001. Its just so much easier to add oil and ethanol until it hits a certain weight on the scale.



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mcervino

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Aug 14, 2013
Thanks again! I think i'm almost there..



I now get the point to always use grams to set the quantity of perfume that you want to make,because it is easier to calculate..But here is the problem..

Just like you said, i am trying to measure out exact 100ml. But, instead of having 23ML left over i just want to calculate it for 100ML.



Now i have:



100gram perfume wich 10% iso E super / 90% Ethanol.

(10 g) / (.964 g/ml) = 10.373 ml of Iso E

(90 g) / (.793 g/ml) = 113.493 ml of ethanol

Total = 123.866 ml



The calculation is fine and i finally understand it, but now i want to calculate the quantities to make exactly 100ML, but this is the part that i still don't understand..



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ksennish

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Jan 19, 2012
If you absolutely don't want any left over, you could scale it back by multiplying the resulting 10.373 and 113.493 by (100/123.866) which is .807, the ratio between the 100ml you want, and the 123.866 ml the above calculations get.



so 10.373 * .807 = 8.371 ml



and 113.493 * .807 = 91.589 ml



At which point you will notice that there is going to be some rounding error in there, it won't add up to exactly 100ml, another example of why going by a scale is better and measuring the volume at the end is the way to go. The total for that would be about 99.96ml, I'd probably just go with 8.4ml and 91.6ml so its exactly 100, because you wouldn't be able to measure out volumes to that many decimal points anyway (another + in the column supporting getting a scale).



So 8.4 and 91.6, as you can see, are pretty close to Chris' original calculations. Don't forget, liquids, especially oils, are going to stick to your measuring devices and there will be some loss for everything, on top of the difficulty of accurate measuring, so while this will get you a ballpark of 10%, it likely won't be on the nose.



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mcervino

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Aug 14, 2013
Ksennish,



This was EXACTLY where i was looking for! Thanks you so much!!



My last question before i can really get started:



So thats a 10.4% solution by weight - close enough for your purposes. If you dont find thats strong enough you can always add more Iso E Super until youre happy with it.



What is final the calculation to get the 10.4% ?



And again, thank you very very much!



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ksennish

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2012
What Chris did was basically a very simplified version of the math I did above, going to the nearest ml, instead of a tenth of a ml or more as I did. He started with a rounded version of the answer, 8 ml iso E, and 92 ml of ethanol (compared to 8.4ml and 91.6 ml from my answer), and then multiplied it by their respective densities just to show that doing 8ml and 92ml is ~10% concentration by weight.



Although, maybe Chris can comment on this if he sees it, but that solution might actually be 9.4%, not 10.4%.



You get .104 if you divide 7.68 by 73.6, which would be the ratio of iso e to ethanol, not the % iso E of total concentration



But I believe you have to add the 7.68 to the 73.6, so 81.26, and you divide 7.68 (the grams of iso E) by the total weight of the entire mixture 81.26, then you get .094 or 9.4%.



Chris, can you confirm my explanation?



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mcervino

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Aug 14, 2013
Aah that explains everything.. i was also getting 9.4 with the same calculation.

Waiting for Chris to confirm.

Thanks again !


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BlackForest

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Jan 30, 2013
I dont believe Molecule 01 is alcohol and Iso E Super



It smells more refined. Has citrus in the beginning, and is softer.



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mcervino

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Aug 14, 2013
Thankyou very much Chris!

I read all of your blogs/articles(very good material) and i know that it is better to work with weights, but i just wanted know the full calculation so atleast i know what i am doing hehe.

What would be the % of ambroxan/ethanol to make the molecule 02 ?


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Master-Classter

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Aug 14, 2009
I dont believe Molecule 01 is alcohol and Iso E Super



It smells more refined. Has citrus in the beginning, and is softer.


perhaps you smelled Essentric 01? which has added to it lime, iris and pink pepper?



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Chris Bartlett

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Jul 17, 2011
Thankyou very much Chris!

I read all of your blogs/articles(very good material) and i know that it is better to work with weights, but i just wanted know the full calculation so atleast i know what i am doing hehe.

What would be the % of ambroxan/ethanol to make the molecule 02 ?



I use 5% ambrofix to make an imitation of Molecule 02 (which is also essentially the same as Juliet Has a Gun's Not a Perfume) and I think that comes out slightly stronger than original 02.



You don't need anything else.



Despite lots of people detecting other notes in these fragrances there really is nothing else there. Citrus (often lemon) is frequently mentioned by people smelling Iso E Super alone: last summer I put mop-up cloths used to clean up an IES spill outside the back door and my gardener told me he could smell lemon at the other end of the garden and was searching for something in flower that might be causing it. It took me a minute to realise it was the IES - he recognised the smell on the cloth as what he'd detected when I pointed it out: just because it's a single molecule, does not mean it isn't a complex scent that is perceived differently by different people and in different circumstances.



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mcervino

Well-known member
Aug 14, 2013
Hi Chris,



thanks alot for all the good info!



Because i live in The Netherlands i was considering taking my supplies from hekserij.nl(easy and next day delivery for me).

Could you tell me how their Ambrofix / Iso E Super is? Don't know if there is any difference between theirs and those from shop.perfumersapprentice.com.



Thanks in advance.



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Chris Bartlett

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Jul 17, 2011
Actually I didn't know De Hekserij stocked Ambrofix but I know they have original IFF Iso E Super, which will be perfect for Molecule 01


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mcervino

Well-known member
Aug 14, 2013
Ah you are totally right.. They don't have Ambrofix at all..

Do you recommend any other supplier to get Ambrofix? I'd prefer a EU/UK supplier.



Atleast i can get my Iso E Super from hekserij, thanks!



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Chris Bartlett

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Jul 17, 2011
Ah you are totally right.. They don't have Ambrofix at all..

Do you recommend any other supplier to get Ambrofix? I'd prefer a EU/UK supplier.



Atleast i can get my Iso E Super from hekserij, thanks!



So far as I'm aware Hermitage are the only UK retailer currently offering Ambrofix, there may be others elsewhere in Europe but if so I've not come across them.



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flagellum

Well-known member
Jun 4, 2013
Hekserij don't stock Ambroxan, at least not that I know of. Hermitage Oils (UK) also stock the IFF-ISO-E-SUPER. I remember reading somewhere though that practically no one can get their hands on the actual industrial edition of the molecule used for that perfume in such purity and so large-scale supplied (I see my English won't be helping me tonight, still hope that it's half-way comprehensible what I mean). Meaning the actual perfume concentrate used for the perfume is a "special edition Iso-E-Super" in isomer purity and balance which is not accessible to the retail branch/small supplies/hobbyist perfumer, anyway, sorry, you get it.

In Europe there's also the German omikron-online.de who stock or used to stock Ambroxide. At a price for gold bars, but I am pretty sure they still do (must be again something extremely pure, no idea). Go for Adam's Ambrofix (hermitageoils.com) instead, if it has to be Europe. Unless someone knows otherwise or more.


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Chris Bartlett

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Jul 17, 2011
Hekserij don't stock Ambroxan, at least not that I know of. Hermitage Oils (UK) also stock the IFF-ISO-E-SUPER. I remember reading somewhere though that practically no one can get their hands on the actual industrial edition of the molecule used for that perfume in such purity and so large-scale supplied (I see my English won't be helping me tonight, still hope that it's half-way comprehensible what I mean). Meaning the actual perfume concentrate used for the perfume is a "special edition Iso-E-Super" in isomer purity and balance which is not accessible to the retail branch/small supplies/hobbyist perfumer, anyway, sorry, you get it. In Europe there's also the German omikron-online.de who stock or used to stock Ambroxide. At a price for gold bars, but I am pretty sure they still do (must be again something extremely pure, no idea). Go for Adam's Ambrofix (hermitageoils.com) instead, if it has to be Europe. Unless someone knows otherwise or more.

A quick clarification here on Iso E Super, there are four main grades of, what is in essence the same molecule, the grades differ not so much in purity per se, but in the amount of the desirable gamma isomer that is present:



Isocyclemone E came first and is still widely manufactured, particularly in China, it has the lowest level of gamma.

Iso E Super ("super" isocyclemone e being the derivation) came next and has a higher level of gamma. IFF claim their original is better than others marketed under their name, hence the desire to use this in Molecule 01 recreations. Currently both De Hekserij and Hermitage offer original IFF material.

Timbersilk (IFF having resisted the temptation to call it Iso E Super-duper) has recently been released by IFF and has a still higher level of the gamma isomer (but it isn't pure gamma). This is a truly lovely material but it was not available when Molecule 01 was released so it wasn't what was used.

Iso Gamma Super is the internal IFF name for the pure or near-pure gamma version that only IFF perfumers can use - it is not available for sale to anyone else whether hobbyist or professional - it is what the industry refers to as a captive molecule. So unless IFF manufacture Molecule 01 this can't be in it either.



The Ambrofix / Ambroxan position is less straightforward and I've written extensively about that already on another thread, but the short version is I believe the Ambrofix product (made by Givaudan) to be every bit as good as Ambroxan or -(-)Ambroxide manufactured by others. All are the same molecule and the same isomer though manufacturing routes are different and so can lead to minor differences in performance. I've explored the various amber materials in a blog post on the subject.



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flagellum

Well-known member
Jun 4, 2013
Hi, Chris, and thank you for clarifying that. Again it was on German perfumer Kormann's www.aromatisches-blog.de where I read that no one has actually access to that high-purity material so that Molecule 01 can never actually be copied, at least: not that good. I will search again for the exact link and edit my post here; I still remember it was an answer of his to a reader's comment and question if he could use his own IsoES to reproduce the same fragrance: the answer was no because no one has access to that pure version of Iso and so on.

That's it from me. And yes: Timbersilk is a beauty. Much less phenolic too, I think. At least to my nose. Chris, if I may ask: would it be a mistake if I used pure alcohol for my Molecule 01, but added a bit IPM to it? I mean: could I substitute a part of alc with IPM or would the perfume then get even more flat than it already seems, only this time because of the solvent? My skin is drier than sand actually, that's why I'm asking. If I ask too much, it's OK. IPM is a still a mystery to me, but I prefer it to the sickening oiliness of DPG. Whenever I use solvents, it ends either bitter or sad.

So, this is the link to his text, but I forgot: it's all writen in German :undecided: The man is perfumer, just thought: "he should know".

http://www.aromatisches-blog.de/2010/03/05/iso-e-super/

Anyway, here's a small excerpt:
"Es stimmt zwar, daß der Duft molecule 01 von Geza Schön ausschließlich aus Iso e Super besteht, doch zum einen kommt in diesem Duft ein Captive zum Einsatz, welches Du garantiert nicht einfach so kaufen kannst – dieser Rohstoff ist unglaublich rein und viel feiner, als die im Handel angebotenen Qualitäten – und außerdem entfalten viele Dinge ihre volle Wirkung erst, wenn sie mit Ethanol und Wasser verdünnt wurden. Schon einen solchen Alkohol wird man nur schwer beschaffen können. Aber richtig ist … wenn Du Dir ein Iso e kaufst und dieses in Ethanol gibst (dazu etwas Wasser), dann wirst Du etwas erhalten, was Dich vielleicht an das molecule 01 erinnert. Mehr wird es kaum werden. "

Google translation slightly modified:
"While it is true that the scent Molecule 01 by Geza Schön consists exclusively of Iso E Super, it is however a captive that's being used in this scent, which I guarantee you can not buy so easily; an incredibly pure raw material, much finer than the qualities available retail, and besides, many things unfold their full effect only once they've been diluted in ethanol and a bit of water. Even such an alcohol you will find it hard to obtain. Still, if you buy an Iso-E-Super and give this in ethanol (and some water), then you will get something that maybe reminds of Molecule 01. But it will hardly be more than that."


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Chris Bartlett

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Jul 17, 2011
I notice your source uses the term 'captive' so perhaps he is suggesting that Iso Gamma Super was / is used. That would be possible if Geza Schoen was working for IFF at the time he designed Molecule 01, but not otherwise. So far as I understand things he wasn't, but perhaps someone knows better?



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mcervino

Well-known member
Aug 14, 2013
So Chris.. what do You recommend for making molecule 01? Timbersilk or ISO e super? Or should i try them both?

Do You have any other simple formulas with timbersilk in it ?

Another thanks!!


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Chris Bartlett

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Jul 17, 2011
So Chris.. what do You recommend for making molecule 01? Timbersilk or ISO e super? Or should i try them both?

Do You have any other simple formulas with timbersilk in it ?

Another thanks!!



I think IFF Iso E Super gives you the closest to the original - and I think you need to use about 15% in ethanol. If you want to add water add very little, personally I don't think it is necessary. I see no harm at all in adding a little IPM to moderate the drying effect of the ethanol if you want, but I would keep it to about 5-10% or the resulting fragrance will be oily feeling and may leave marks on clothes.



Timbersilk can replace Iso E Super in virtually all areas where it is used and in most cases will show an improvement if you do a like-for-like substitution. For a really simple way to appreciate it try this:

15% Timbersilk

5% Ambrofix

5% Rose Givco

1% Vanillin at 10%

80% ethanol

4% IPM



What you'll get is a simple rose-vanilla complex but enhanced, thickened and made more diffusive. If you like it, try doing the same with a natural rose absolute, but save money by practicing with the recreation first: you may want to tweak the proportions to your taste too.



If you want to be really extravagant you could use rose otto, but in that case you'll need to use 4% phenylethyl alcohol in place of the IPM.



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mcervino

Well-known member
Aug 14, 2013
I think IFF Iso E Super gives you the closest to the original - and I think you need to use about 15% in ethanol. If you want to add water add very little, personally I don't think it is necessary. I see no harm at all in adding a little IPM to moderate the drying effect of the ethanol if you want, but I would keep it to about 5-10% or the resulting fragrance will be oily feeling and may leave marks on clothes.



Timbersilk can replace Iso E Super in virtually all areas where it is used and in most cases will show an improvement if you do a like-for-like substitution. For a really simple way to appreciate it try this:

15% Timbersilk

5% Ambrofix

5% Rose Givco

1% Vanillin at 10%

80% ethanol

4% IPM



What you'll get is a simple rose-vanilla complex but enhanced, thickened and made more diffusive. If you like it, try doing the same with a natural rose absolute, but save money by practicing with the recreation first: you may want to tweak the proportions to your taste too.



If you want to be really extravagant you could use rose otto, but in that case you'll need to use 4% phenylethyl alcohol in place of the IPM.



Hi Chris,



Thankyou for the formula, i definitely want to try this out!

I've done a research on the forum, but since there is so much information i am a little LOST...



1) How should i start making this mix?

Do i first have to mix all the ingredients(without the ethanol) and dilute it at the end? Or should i dilute all the ingredients before i start mixxing it?



2) If i dilute Iso E Super(just for example) to 15% in ethanol and save it to use it in other perfumes.. In what quantity should i use it?



3) If i am making a new mix which also contains Iso E Super, should i add the IES before diluting my mix or after?



The order of diluting/mixing is what i don't understand.. Don't know if it is better to dilute every ingredient before mixxing them or first mix the ingredients and then dilute the mix.



Sorry if i am asking to much hehe..



Hope you can help me! (or anyone else)



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Chris Bartlett

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Jul 17, 2011
Take a look at this blog post where I give a recommended Method for Blending - there are other ways to approach it - this is just one I think works well when you are starting out.



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mcervino

Well-known member
Aug 14, 2013
Take a look at this blog post where I give a recommended Method for Blending - there are other ways to approach it - this is just one I think works well when you are starting out.





Thanks alot chris!

Definitely going to read the whole blog post. If i still have any questions after reading the blog i will post them here.



Cheers!



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yrogergmc

Well-known member
Jul 28, 2013
I also bought iso e super from PA and it arrived today. I was afraid I wouldn't be able to smell it, but it smells awesome! I put some on right away - straight - and it is great. My question is, why can't we wear this straight? For the inexpensive price, it's not as though it's wasteful. Is it dangerous? It smells fine on me straight, and if I diluted it I am afraid I wouldn't be able to smell it. I am asking here because you folks seem to know your stuff. Any help is appreciated.



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pkiler

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Dec 5, 2007
No, I don't think you're gonna die from putting raw Iso E Super on your skin.

Yes, you'll still smell it, if it is diluted, you just need to use the same or a similar amount of undiluted vs diluted by virtue of it's percentage. You're not going to take a bath in undiluted, are you? :)


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Chris Bartlett

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Jul 17, 2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by yrogergmc /img/forum/go_quote.gif

I also bought iso e super from PA and it arrived today. I was afraid I wouldn't be able to smell it, but it smells awesome! I put some on right away - straight - and it is great. My question is, why can't we wear this straight? For the inexpensive price, it's not as though it's wasteful. Is it dangerous? It smells fine on me straight, and if I diluted it I am afraid I wouldn't be able to smell it. I am asking here because you folks seem to know your stuff. Any help is appreciated.





There is some evidence that it can cause sensitisation in some people. Sensitisation is a form of skin / body reaction to a substance that is triggered by a certain amount of exposure to it. So to start with you have no reaction at all but after a period of repeated exposure you become hyper-sensitive to the substance and even very small amounts can then trigger a reaction.



In the case of Iso E Super the evidence isn't all that strong and the NoESL (no expected sensitisation level) is high, resulting in an IFRA limitation for this material of 20.4% in the finished product. This compares with 0.7% for Jasmine Absolute and 0.1% for Lyral for example.



So to directly answer your question, there is no reason you can't wear it straight if you want to. I've frequently had a lot of it on my hands and breathed a lot of it in over the years and I'm still here to tell the tale.



However I can tell you that in an enclosed space large amounts have left me feeling quite ill (I left a paper towel I'd used to clean up a spill in a bin in the house and then spent a lot of time in the room with it - took me some time to work out what the problem was - but once I did & removed the offending article all was well. Consider the effect you might have on yourself and others in car or an enclosed working environment wearing a lot of this stuff neat . . .



I also have personal experience with sensitisation: in my case to a particular type of nut I used to eat in quantity as a child, I now find even traces in food can make my mouth and throat swell up and so I have to assiduously avoid them. Luckily it hasn't happened to me with a perfume ingredient but you can imagine what trouble it might cause you, given the ubiquity of fragrances in everyday products.



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bigbz

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Apr 30, 2013
Old thread revived! Alright guys and gals, so I just got my Iso E Super from P.A. and even stopped off at the liquor store on my way to work this morning right when they opened and got my small bottle of Clear Spring(generic Everclear) Besides feeling completely guilty about be in a liquor store first thing when they open buying a bottle of 190 proof alcohol....everything is set and I'm excited!!!

So my question is....when I mix these together this evening, is there a certain length of time I have to let these "sit" so they properly mix together to get the desired result of Molecule 01?
 

pkiler

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Dec 5, 2007
Well BZ, all you're accomplishing is a dilution, if you are only using Straight solamente Iso E Super, No waiting necessary. Unless you're gonna drink the stuff!
 

ksennish

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Jan 19, 2012
You could wear it tonight if you want, just wait a couple minutes before taking a whiff, as you will want the ethanol to evaporate, which it will do quickly.

Aging serves two purposes generally, first, allowing different oils to react and stabilize together, and second, to reduce the smell of ethanol that can be present on newly mixed fragrances. The first part shouldn't be an issue with only one oil, aging it will probably not make any noticeable changes to most people. The ethanol smell upon spraying should dissipate over the next couple weeks, but it shouldn't stop you from wearing it now. Just avoid having people smell it the instant you spray it.

I've had my mix of Iso E that I made when I first posted in this thread for at least a year and a half now, and over the course of aging, I would say it hasn't change much. If anything, it seems to open up a bit quicker these days, but the scent is still very much the same.
 

bigbz

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Apr 30, 2013
PK and ksennish, thank you gentlemen SO much!:beer: This is my first time doing anything like this, and even though it's something so stupidly simple....I can't help but to get excited about it.<g>
 

Jeremiah Taylor

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Dec 29, 2012
Can someone make this a sticky so it doesn't keep popping up every few days? Not to sound like a curmudgeon, but it's ISO E Super in alcohol,...it isn't that complicated.
 

pkiler

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Dec 5, 2007
I don;t think it needs to be a stickie, to my mind, stickies are IMPORTANT. this thread doesn't meet that qualification to me... Albeit very boring to wade through again and again, due a numbskull's marketing project. :) I'm glad at least HE'S making money off his perfumery...

PK
 

lpp

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Feb 8, 2010
There are rather a lot of DIY stickies already :)

It's always possible to subscribe to a thread so that it may be found again at a later date.
 

Jaysin5506

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May 23, 2016
I have 8oz of Perfumers alcohol on hand, now I am awaiting the arrival of my ISO E Super, I think I ordered 30ml, I wish I would have ordered more now. O well. i'll post up my results in here when I start mixing up.

I have a serious question thoiugh. What do you all think about if I went hard, and sprayed straight 100% ISO E Super out of the atomizer, straight onto my skin, instead of diluting it down. I'm liukely at least going to give that a try, I dont know how much i'll experiment in the 100% atomizer, maybe 10ml.
 

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