Kyrgyzstan musk pod dissection and tincture

[Xcaliber6685]

Intro:
I've received my Kyrgyzstan musk pod yesterday, thought I share my experience and documentation with whoever may find it useful, or entertaining. I've done some basic research about musk pod/grain in general, mostly from ouddict, here on this forum, and through communication with other forum members, along with both the sellers and also from Ensar.

The What:
Ordered a 29.6g Kyrgyzstan musk pod from Ulugbek, this thing cost me $1249 shipped via Fedex from Kyrgyzstan. Took about 4 days for the transit, when i received and opened the package, the pod shell was moist and oozing out juice. The appearance of this musk pod looks almost like Mongolian, it has got that Smeagol's head going on, only a few strains of hairs hanging on one side. The size of the pod is similar to a big water chestnut, quite compact and dense to the feel.

Based on what I've learned, musk pods can and will go bad if not handled or stored properly. I would have to either store it in the freezer per the seller's recommendation immediately, or process and open it asap. I decided not to wait, freezing and thawing this stuff might not be ideal, i used a small USB fan to air dry the whole pod for 2 to 3 hours, wouldn't want to work on a sticky mess.












Dissection:
Once the pod is dry to the touch, I weighed it again at around 28g right before I worked on it, the pod has lost quite a bit of moisture, as the pod shell dried and shrunk, it compressed against the grains inside the pod, oozing out a bit more thick and sticky substance. Here's a video of the entire process, so you get to see the process from start to finish

Part 1:

Part 2:

Once I've emptied out the innerds, the pod shell weighed in at 2.92g, I cut it to smaller pieces and top off the alcohol to 50ml, approximately 6% concentration of tincture from the pod skins.







The Innerds look exactly like what Ensar got from his Siberian musk pod in video "Marceration in Action", with grains mixed in with chunks of membranes and connected tissues





Next, I had to separate the majority of the membranes and connected tissues from the grains, had to work fast and did the best that I can, needed my reading glasses, unfortunately I do not have magnifying glass around but even If i do, I wouldn't be so anal about leaving behind a few pieces of hairs and tiny bit of tissues. Beside, even ensar didn't bother to pick out the membranes, he simply emptied the entire innerds of the musk pod into maceration and tincture. I'm still not sure who came up with the idea to separate membranes from the grains, seems like a bandwagon thing a lot of people were doing, but whatever lol i guess better safe than sorry so i picked out the big chunks to tincture them separately anyway. The grains are drying out quickly as they lay and spread wide open, my room temperature was around 75'F with 20% humidity, plenty of air circulation, but as you can imagine the musky scent still fill up the entire room. Got my air purifier going at the same time.












The Membrane and tissues weighed in at 4.96g, they are saturated with musk grains. They went into a separate bottle to be tincture, which would yield about 10% concentration in 50ml.

3rd bottle has 5g of musk grains to yield a 10% concentration in 50ml tincture

4th bottle has 7.5g of musk grains to yield a 15% concentration in 50ml tincture

I have about 3g of musk grains left, which i keep separately in 4 tiny 2ml viles. Each vile has enough volume to fill up exactly 1g of musk grains, so I got 2x 1g vile, and 2x 0.5g vile, at this point, the musk grains are mostly dry, the fine grains are almost powdery. I've also left a small piece of the pod skin in the tiny vile as a reference and sample.


Here's the end result:




A few more closeups of the tinctures:










More eye candy:








I didn't bother with any macerations, out of all three Mysore Sandalwoods that I have received from three different reliable sources, I just decided Mysore Sandalwood isn't really my cup of tea, I would use them in a blend, but i do not like them neat.


The Aroma:
Musk pod has a hint of ammonia, which is to be expected, while the musk grains is very musky, gamey, earthy, very chocolatey and creamy, obviously animalic and smell like wild games as Mak-7 would put it. Kyrgyzstan musk is similar to Kashmiri from what I was told by Ulugbek, it's a bit stronger and muskier than the Siberian. This particular musk that I got smells quite dense and heavy, it travels deep behind the nostril and lingers there for a long time, very persistent and musky stuff. I can certainly see why and how this stuff could cause nose-bleed to be working on a bunch of them indoors. Surprisingly it isn't as urinous as I have expected, there's a hint of it on the pod skins, but it isn't enough to make me gag or anything.



Tools:
- I use parchment paper to prevent grains from sticking everywhere once I opened it, i've seen other people who opened musk pods with them grains sticking on paper towels, paper plates, bowls, and everywhere. It's something i want to avoid, so parchment paper would be my preference.
- For tincturing, I've ordered a few 50ml Pyrex media storage bottles, along with some 2ML Clear Glass Vials, all from Amazon.
- Perfume alcohol, I got 32oz of SDA-40B (99.88% ethanol and 0.12% t-butyl alcohol) from creatingperfume last year, didn't get to use it untill now.
- I've ordered a dissecting kit in advance from Amazon for $13, I need the right tool for the job, isn't going to skim on $13 after spending $1200 on a musk pod. Sure you can use any scissor or kitchen knife, but I prefer precision tools for this particular task, it came with everything I need to tackle the somewhat delicate object. I have another Siberian Musk pod coming from a different source, the toolset certainly would come in handy again....




The tincture bottles are sealed now, sitting right on top of my water-cooled computer above the radiator, air temperature at this spot is much warmer so hopefully, that would help speed up the tincturing process a little. I'll shake them every night, and let them do their things for 6 months or more. This is just a fun project and a learning process for me, I'll be using these tinctures for musk bomb projects in the future. I hope you guys found the information somewhat interesting.😅😁

 

[melograno]

I found this so interesting! Thank you for sharing your process in such detail.

 

[Deleted member 26261516]

Fantastic post, thank you Xcaliber6685!
It looks really good and coming from aged deer, your description about the initial smell is recalling the smell of tongkin musk.

 

[Xcaliber6685]

Fantastic post, thank you Xcaliber6685!
It looks really good and coming from aged deer, your description about the initial smell is recalling the smell of tongkin musk.

Thnaks...haha. Yes it does remind me of the Tonkin, the deep, dark, earthy, and creamier tonality is quite interesting. This particular pod was dry for more than 4 months by Ulugbek. Judging by how quickly it went from 29.6g to 28g within a few hours just from a tiny fan blowing on it, this pod must have been around 40g+ on day 1.

The 2nd bottle with the membranes saturated with grains, i'm tempting to fish out those chunks of membranes and skin tissues and add them to the pod tincture, just to keep all the meat and skin together. You can see all the grains have now been "washed off" and separated from the membrane and sunk to the bottom of the bottle, probably 1~2g worth of grains in there now. lol

 

[mnitabach]

This looks amazeballs! The musk grains are the dark brown material that looks like top soil during the dissection & after settling in to bottle like finer brown powder?

 

[Xcaliber6685]

This looks amazeballs! The musk grains are the dark brown material that looks like top soil during the dissection & after settling in to bottle like finer brown powder?

Yes the grains looks a bit like topsoil as you mentioned lol Or milk chocolate, I shook the crap out of the tincture every now and then, to break off clumps of grains, they look a bit like chocolate powder in there. 😆

Here's the color comparison of the 1g dry grains next to the grains inside the tincture.

 

[ZT31]

What an amazing post, thank you for the details and sharing, enjoy your purchase and tincture.

 

[Diamond Joe]

Really really cool man, thanks for sharing. Looking forward to you bumping this thread in six months or so with the results!

 

[Xcaliber6685]

Thanks guys, this is the first time that I've play with musk in the raw form, quite an experience thus far.

As much as i'm a bigger fan of musk than oud in general, musk tincture definitely isn't something i would ever want to wear neat, you can wear any ouds neat on its own, oud oils are significantly more complex, with many different notes, layers, and different transition, but it's not the case with musk, it's simply way too animalic and gamey to be wearing it neat, I've always curious about that, but now i know... i do not find raw musk attractive or alluring on its own, it needs to be either layer with something else, or with at least 1 additional note to support it 😅

 

[Deleted member 26261516]

I believe Jamie Frater wears an old 10% tincture of Tongkin musk neat and described it as sublime.

 

[grabuge]

'...out of all three Mysore Sandalwoods that I have received from three different reliable sources, I just decided Mysore Sandalwood isn't really my cup of tea...'

Interesting. Which three reliable sources did you get your Mysore from? Thanks.

 

[Xcaliber6685]

'...out of all three Mysore Sandalwoods that I have received from three different reliable sources, I just decided Mysore Sandalwood isn't really my cup of tea...'

Interesting. Which three reliable sources did you get your Mysore from? Thanks.

Ulugbek, Hermitage, Eden, and another few ml from a friend of mine who loved his, also waiting for some from NinjaRobb, which a lot of people love theirs and Ulugbek's on ouddict, everyone who tried them loved theirs. I'm just never a fan of any sandalwood in general, the one and only exception is Santal Sultan from EO, every other sandalwood are just not my cup of tea, definitely won't wear them neat. Don't even like the Sandalwood from the new EO Crime & Punishment either. Could just be something that i really need to spend a lot more time with, to get used to it.

 

[Xcaliber6685]

Here is some interesting facts about Moisture loss on musk grains:

Ordered musk pod size: 29.6g
pod pre-drying prior to dissection: 28g
empty pod weight: 2.92g
membrane and skin tissues: 4.96g
semi-dry grains used for 10% tincture: 5g
semi-dry grains used for 15% tincture: 7.5g
dry grains stored away: 3g

Total moisture loss to evaporation: 6.22g

So, when I bought the pod by weight at $40/g, basically there was $248.80 that simply evaporated into thin air within a few hours. 😲😅

 

[coumarine]

How can you be proud of what you've done and what you show us !?!? The Musk deer is an animal protected by the CITES and its use is forbidden in perfumery and cosmetics. if I were you I would play low profile !

 

[Mak-7]

All i can say is welcome to the club 🥂
Its like a re-lieved my experience, albeit one thing that i had different is amount of evaporation. I still had it, but it was way less from what i recall.
I would encourage you to steep some grains in sandalwood though, itll improve the oil, give it aged patina.
I am thinking of adding some grains to my Yuzhi ouds, thatll be a treat.

Final thought - i have some grains out from 2 macerations in alcohol and they are still emmiting strong scent. This is a material that keeps on giving 😉

 

[Xcaliber6685]

All i can say is welcome to the club 🥂
Its like a re-lieved my experience, albeit one thing that i had different is amount of evaporation. I still had it, but it was way less from what i recall.
I would encourage you to steep some grains in sandalwood though, itll improve the oil, give it aged patina.
I am thinking of adding some grains to my Yuzhi ouds, thatll be a treat.

Final thought - i have some grains out from 2 macerations in alcohol and they are still emmiting strong scent. This is a material that keeps on giving 😉

The tinctures were saturated and I have created 10 different compositions out of them so far, the same grains are currently going through the 2nd tincturing....the fresh alcohol turned reddish brown pretty quickly.

Looks like these grains simply keeps on giving, as you said!! 😂

 

[minorstep]

Best post this year. Legendary, thank you sir.

 

[thesacredsaguaro]

Are you even aware that musk deers are being farmed from a certain country without being killed to harvest the grains, and a certain amount of deers is actually legally sanctioned to be killed by licensed (legit and legal) hunters each year at a certain part of the country? How can you be so ignorant to make such an idiotic and condescending comment without getting all the facts straight first? if i were you I'd do your research before spouting out that type of BS and falsehood. Looks like you aren't even aware there are countless of artisanal perfume houses out there are still using real deer musk on a consistent and regular basis, and real musk perfumes are still commercially available from all over the world! How long have you been living under the rock???? Let me educate you a little more, over 95% of the deer musk grains are being legally traded, sold, and used for medicinal purposes, they are still being prescribed legally by trained Medical Herbalists and Medicine Practitioners from many different countries. Perfumery is just a tiny fraction of where the deer musk grains are being used for! Stop trying to pretend you care about wildlife, if you truly care, go troll the medicinal and herbalist field first, that's where the majority of the musk deers died for. Stick with your Ambroxan and other synthetic chemical warfare, natural botanicals clearly aren't meant for your type of people.

I’m all for musk and musk pods but the research I’ve done states that while Musk Deer hunters have a certain allotment they can legally obtain the reality is that it takes up to 4 to 5 dead musk deers to find ones that have pods useable. So it’s not exactly ethical and the fact that they’re used for musk pods and musk pods only the carcass goes to waste. Furthermore it’s impossible to tell the difference between a female and male musk deer with several endangered species being at risk of being shot for nothing simply due to the fact that you can’t tell them apart.


Source

Here’s an excerpt

“The impacts of hunting and trapping result in an estimated three to five musk deer killed for every male deer with a sufficiently large musk gland. Since an average of 40 male deer with sufficiently large glands are necessary to produce each kilogramme of musk, this equates to the hunting of about 160 deer in total. In turn, this means that amounts of raw musk imported legally by France, Germany and Switzerland over the past two decades represent the deaths of tens of thousands of musk deer.”

So let’s be real here. You’re not getting ethically sourced musk. You’re getting a certificate that says ethically sourced. I just think it’s worth being honest with ourselves when we buy this product to know that it comes with unnecessary suffering.

A common tactic used by Musk deer hunters and poachers alike is to burn the forest to literally burn them out of their habitat.

Check it out

So next time you call someone idiotic and ignorant maybe do some more research? I mean shouldn’t we, who love musk, do everything we can to ensure the safety and support of this incredible deer by learning all the various methods that hunters employ to trap and kill these animals as a way to advocate on behalf of the deer by pointing out and contributing to ethical education of animal itself?

 

[thesacredsaguaro]

There are just so many things wrong with the garbage you've spewed I'm not even sure where to begin.

Reality? What reality? YOUR reality? LOL and that random piece of article you found was published in 1999, the data was collected between the 80s and 90s ain't it? there are so many things that have changed since then, not to mention you have absolutely no proof whatsoever as to what the modern hunters do with that deer meat, you are simply assuming the carcass are being disposed of, based on what? some hearsay and decade olds random data? and you made your argument solely based an article or two to form your conclusion and assumption? lol You are assuming ALL hunters do not consume or utilize deer meat, and you assumed all hunters across the globe are harvesting musk pods unethically, that's a blanket statement that you're making here.

2nd issue is, the majority of the musk consumption are being used for medicinal purposes, even with the smallest percentage being used in the perfume industry, if you care so much about being "ethical", why are you buying and wearing any perfumes and attars containing real deer musk? you ARE supporting it when YOU, are a consumer yourself, spare me your "better than thou" type of hypocritical bullshit.

3rd, I bought only two musk pods, instead of coming at me trying to spew your propaganda nonsense, I don't see you and other bullshitters go voice your "ethical" concern and go mouth off at Russian Adam, Ensar, Prin, Bortnikoff, Dixie&Zak, and all other perfumers who use bucket load of the deer musks in a consistent and regular basis?? Oh wait, you're a hypocrite, it's easier for you to pick on a random individual in the forum instead....NOW that is some unethical crap that you're doing here. 😂



That's the biggest hypocritical dishonest bullshit you've spewed yet! YOU...just posted how much you were impressed and love the natural deer musk in Onthamara by Prin, and somehow you magically knew the musk being used by PRIN was being sourced ethically and the deer didn't suffer?? You knew that HOW? 🙄 Speaking of animal suffering.....killing is killing, be it musk deer, poultry or livestock. How is it any more "ethical" when gazillions of livestock are caged or confined within a parameter without any freedom.... destined to be slaughtered, or even mistreated at the farm? Animals that aren't on the endangered list suffered less? is that what you're implying here? LOL Practically ALL those animals are suffering in one form or another, but somehow you and all other hypocrites are coming to this thread to make a PHONY OUTCRY and at the same time being regular consumers and supporters who have absolutely no issue in buying and wearing leather goods, eating meats, eggs, and many other things that came from animals who "suffered". Cherry-picking much??

You're barking at the wrong tree, go spew your nonsense at Russian Adam, Bortnikoff, Prin, EO, Dixie&Zak, and other perfumers who use deer musks on a regular and consistent basis. Better yet, take your propaganda BS and go protest and voice YOUR ethical concern in the medicinal field, where over 90% of the deer musks are being used for and consumed. 🙄

I can see you’re rather upset about this and that’s understandable. I didn’t say I’m anti musk. I’m not sure how you got that out of what I posted. I just said I’m well aware of how unethical sourcing of musk is. Wether or not the Chinese use it is irrelevant to the fact that the hunting practices are the same wether now, 10 years ago, or 50 years ago.

I just think it’s better to know that beef most of us consume is factory farmed and slaughtered and comes with immense suffering attached to it. Doesn’t mean I won’t eat beef or I think beef shouldn’t be eaten. I just think it’s worth knowing that sourcing deer musk isn’t ethical even if a certificate says it is.



If 2017 is considered valid to you here’s an article with links to studies in Russia and how logging increases access to poaching of musk deer and thus furthers the dwindling population of Musk Deer in Russia.

https://newsroom.wcs.org/News-Relea...aching-in-Russia-Linked-to-Logging-Roads.aspx

Here’s one on poaching. It’s hard to distinguish what’s poached and what isn’t. Except for someone’s word.

Here’s a source that shows “ethical” hunters are still poaching musk deer

I tbink you missed this part too


“So next time you call someone idiotic and ignorant maybe do some more research? I mean shouldn’t we, who love musk, do everything we can to ensure the safety and support of this incredible deer by learning all the various methods that hunters employ to trap and kill these animals as a way to advocate on behalf of the deer by pointing out and contributing to ethical education of animal itself?”

 

[Xcaliber6685]

I can see you’re rather upset about this and that’s understandable. I didn’t say I’m anti musk. I’m not sure how you got that out of what I posted. I just said I’m well aware of how unethical sourcing of musk is. Wether or not the Chinese use it is irrelevant to the fact that the hunting practices are the same wether now, 10 years ago, or 50 years ago.

I just think it’s better to know that beef most of us consume is factory farmed and slaughtered and comes with immense suffering attached to it. Doesn’t mean I won’t eat beef or I think beef shouldn’t be eaten. I just think it’s worth knowing that sourcing deer musk isn’t ethical even if a certificate says it is.



If 2017 is considered valid to you here’s an article with links to studies in Russia and how logging increases access to poaching of musk deer and thus furthers the dwindling population of Musk Deer in Russia.

https://newsroom.wcs.org/News-Relea...aching-in-Russia-Linked-to-Logging-Roads.aspx

Here’s one on poaching. It’s hard to distinguish what’s poached and what isn’t. Except for someone’s word.

Here’s a source that shows “ethical” hunters are still poaching musk deer

I tbink you missed this part too


“So next time you call someone idiotic and ignorant maybe do some more research? I mean shouldn’t we, who love musk, do everything we can to ensure the safety and support of this incredible deer by learning all the various methods that hunters employ to trap and kill these animals as a way to advocate on behalf of the deer by pointing out and contributing to ethical education of animal itself?”

FWIW....Are you aware that Russian Adam have souced his musk pods from the exact same guy i bought mine from as well?

 

[jsweet]

So let’s be real here. You’re not getting ethically sourced musk. You’re getting a certificate that says ethically sourced. I just think it’s worth being honest with ourselves when we buy this product to know that it comes with unnecessary suffering.

I'm at a loss for what your definition of "ethically sourced" is. Why rake the coals in this 2+ month-old thread in order to call into question whether OP's musk was ethically sourced, without explaining what it would mean to ethically source musk? If there are ethical sources for musk, by all means point the way.

 

[thesacredsaguaro]

I'm at a loss for what your definition of "ethically sourced" is. Why rake the coals in this 2+ month-old thread in order to call into question whether OP's musk was ethically sourced, without explaining what it would mean to ethically source musk? If there are ethical sources for musk, by all means point the way.

Youre missing the point entirely. It’s like you guys are thinking I said “musk bad” or something. I’m just pointing out with sources that even the ethical musk trade isn’t ethical and that’s its worth noting. Instead of berating others and calling them ignorant and idiotic (like OP did) I’m suggesting to maybe JUST MAYBE expand your horizons a bit and see past whatever cognitive dissonance is taking place and see that there isn’t really such a thing as an ethical musk trade. It’s that very reason that we as lovers of musk should educate ourselves to the industry as well as listen to those who are literally trying to preserve musk deers from going extinct so we can all continue to use this wonderful creatures musk pods. Not sure why that’s so hard for you or him to see.

Also a definition for ethically sourced deer musk would be deer musk from a farm. However farmed deer musk doesn’t smell good for perfumery usage because the deer don’t get enough of a variety of vegetation in their diet. So it’s not ideal.

And one more time since you both missed it. My issue is that OP berated another member calling their viewpoint idiotic and stupid and attacked their character for suggesting Musk isn’t ethical. I’m simply countering that claim since this is the DIY forum where this kind of information is necessary to form an actual honest opinion on an extremely controversial material.

 

[thesacredsaguaro]

FWIW....Are you aware that Russian Adam have souced his musk pods from the exact same guy i bought mine from as well?

What does that have to do with what I’m saying like at all?

 

[jsweet]

Youre missing the point entirely. It’s like you guys are thinking I said “musk bad” or something. I’m just pointing out with sources that even the ethical musk trade isn’t ethical and that’s its worth noting. Instead of berating others and calling them ignorant and idiotic (like OP did) I’m suggesting to maybe JUST MAYBE expand your horizons a bit and see past whatever cognitive dissonance is taking place and see that there isn’t really such a thing as an ethical musk trade.

Yeah, I guess I'm still missing the point. You say you aren't saying "musk bad" but then you basically are saying there is no such thing as an ethical musk trade and that you are certain that OP's musk is unethically sourced.

You then go on to say that farmed musk pods are ethical, ignoring that OP said his pods were farmed in Kyrgyzstan. None of the sources you linked to had anything at all to say about musk harvesting practices and the musk trade in Kyrgyzstan.

Granted that OP probably can't easily verify that the pod was in fact farmed and not hunted, your certainty that OP's pod comes from burning down forests or what have you is completely unfounded too.

 

[Mak-7]

@thesacredsaguaro i hear your point but this matter is out of our hands. Even with research and best intentions we cant guarantee any result, unless we travel out, buy licence and hunt a deer down and use pod, eat meat and taxidermy the skin and bones, then place the animal in own house and give thanks to the deer every day for their gift.

In short - people are tired of all virtue signaling folks that seems to only live for the purpose of coming to any section on the web and preaching their shit. You cant change a person by continuously being in their face, it only angers them.

I think this is pretty easy to understand. Lets leave this matter at that.

 

[thesacredsaguaro]

Yeah, I guess I'm still missing the point. You say you aren't saying "musk bad" but then you basically are saying there is no such thing as an ethical musk trade and that you are certain that OP's musk is unethically sourced.

You then go on to say that farmed musk pods are ethical, ignoring that OP said his pods were farmed in Kyrgyzstan. None of the sources you linked to had anything at all to say about musk harvesting practices and the musk trade in Kyrgyzstan.

Granted that OP probably can't easily verify that the pod was in fact farmed and not hunted, your certainty that OP's pod comes from burning down forests or what have you is completely unfounded too.

Okay I’ll say it again since you’re missing the point STILL. It’s important to understand the full picture of what we’re dealing with when it comes to the preservation and conservation of Musk Deer. An animal that we clearly love dearly. Raising awareness to unethical practices within the industry is important to changing the narrative in order to preserve the existence of Musk Deer in the future as all sources point towards conservation efforts failing due to poaching and over harvesting of musk deer in the wild.

The reason why I responded AT ALL was because OP called another member stupid and idiotic for their beliefs and then proceeded to use poor examples that are clearly a result of confirmation bias that completely ignores the reality of the musk trade and used it as a point to berate a member on here. On the diy forum which is meant to literally discuss the very materials we’re discussing.

But all you guys are concerned about is me supposedly being a hypocrite and idiotic as OP said as if I’m chastising them for the musk pod. This isn’t about the musk pod haha. It’s about the behavior of a a misinformed member and their misunderstanding of the musk trade.

It’s just willfully ignorant to ignore…literally ignore all the warning signs in the conservation community simply because someone says they have a certificate that says “ethical”. It’s also ignorant to literally berate someone like a child for pointing out their information is not only wrong but misleading on a forum once again meant to educate those on these very materials.

And no these pods weren’t obtained from a farm. Op never said that. They mentioned musk deer farms that are in China and that musk deer are obtained from licensed hunters. Ulegbek to my knowledge (last I spoke with him) obtains his pods from hunters as pods from farms aren’t used for perfumery but rather TCM since the deer don’t have the varied diet necessary to produce musk pods needed for perfumery.

 

[foxbins]

This topic has gone way, way off course. Locking it now.