Jicky

[Yuri-G]

Hi all

There doesn't seem to be a DIY thread specifically about Jicky, so I thought I would create one, given its historical significance.

I'm interested in its origins and evolution. Having read other threads, it appears that the vintage formula had 17 materials, only three of them synthetic. Trying to work out what they were, I have got so far:

1. Lavender (presumably the EO not the absolute)
2. Bergamot (around 30% of the formula)
3. Lemon?
4. Rosewood
5. Rose otto
6. Jasmine absolute
7. Opoponax
8. Civet absolute
9. Mysore sandalwood (29%!!!)
10. Vanillin - famously the first fragrance to use synthetic vanillin
11. Coumarin (c. 7%?)
12. Musk ketone (perhaps not the very first iteration given that it wasn't synthesised until the following year, but likely used soon after)
13. ?
14. ?
15. ?
16. ?
17. ?

Interestingly there's no oakmoss in this famous fougere. The other selling notes seem to shift around over the years but may include rosemary, basil, mandarin, orris root (the butter I presume originally, if used), vetiver, patchouli, benzoin, clove bud, cinnamon, pelargonium (I guess they mean geranium). Anyone able to fill in the blanks?

Aside from the mystery notes, I don't have real sandalwood - it seems hard to buy in the UK - but I do have Firmenich's Mysore wood base. I think 30% of this would be insane, so I would have to dial it back considerably. Or I have amyris. Perhaps a combo would work?

And I only have a synthetic civet base. I think I'm ok with that. Are there any ethical sources of real civet? I wouldn't want to use a product that involves animal cruelty.

It would also be interesting to hear how other synthetics crept in over the years if anyone knows.

 

[David Ruskin]

Not sure about item 10. Are you sure you are not confusing Jicky with Shalimar, famously the first fragrance to use synthetic ethyl vanillin?

 

[Yuri-G]

Not sure about item 10. Are you sure you are not confusing Jicky with Shalimar, famously the first fragrance to use synthetic ethyl vanillin?

Oh, perhaps there's some misinformation out there that I have read.

Do you mean that it didn't use vanillin or wasn't the first to do so?

 

[David Ruskin]

I'm sure there was vanillin in Jicky, and have no idea whether or not it was the first fragrance to do so. You may be right. I just wondered if you confused the story of Shalimar and ethyl vanillin, with Jicky.

STOP PRESS. Just checked my copy of Michael Edwards's "Perfume Legends", and you are quite right. According to him, Jicky was the first fragrance to use the newly synthesised vanillin. Apologies.

 

[parker25mv]

Aimé Guerlain's inspiration for Jicky (1889) came from the fougère accord.
"Jicky, as a classical fougère, features lavender, a material that possesses herbal, floral, and warm gourmand facet. Aimé Guerlain dressed it up with a lot of sparkling citrus, a sprinkle of herbs, and a warm vanillic base. The aromatic freshness of lavender is expanded by citrus and herbs in the top. Bergamot and lemon lend their hesperidic sparkles. The original formula of Jicky likely contains as much as 32% bergamot oil and 2% lemon oil, with a boost from linalool obtained from distilled rosewood. Rosemary and thyme add an agrestic accent, giving it a rustic Provençal charm. In contrast, the warm base that emerges later accentuates the sweet gourmand aspect of lavender. It is a powdery mélange of iris, vanilla, tonka bean, and sandalwood—a rudimentary Guerlinade, if you will. The use of aroma chemicals such as coumarin and vanillin gives Jicky a special sweet vanilla character. The animalic overtone of civet is also there, like a creamy ganache. Jicky settles into this warm animalic powder with an aromatic backdrop of lavender and herbs for most of its duration.
Jicky might have a familiar ring to its predecessor Fougère Royale because of its fougère structure, but its juxtaposition between raw citrus and vanillic base lends a different character."

"Guerlain favoured a rich, sweetish palette developed from that of his uncle and predecessor, Aimé Guerlain, building upon the latter's ambery, herbal signature accord, termed 'Guerlinade'. ...
Certain materials are ubiquitous in Guerlain's work: high quality citruses (bergamot, citron, mandarin, sweet and bitter orange), coumarin, floral absolutes (cassie, jasmine, rose, orange blossom), green notes (galbanum), violet-smelling ionones and fine qualities of orris, vanilla and ylang-ylang. He had a fondness for aromatic spices (cardamom, cinnamon, cloves, croton, nutmeg) and certain herbes de Provence (absinthe, angelica, basil, bay leaf, caraway, coriander, cumin, tarragon). ... aromatic resins (benzoin, labdanum); indeed he used opoponax in most of his formulae, sometimes in mere trace quantities - imperceptible in and of itself though lending to the overall texture of the perfume. [sometimes ambergris] His base notes often consisted of strong artificial musks. ... Guerlain’s technique of balancing synthetics with rich naturals is considered exemplary; in the words of perfumer Ernest Shiftan, Guerlain’s work is 'the greatest example of the blending of aroma chemicals with natural products.' "
Keep in mind that during Guerlain's time aroma chemicals only existed for a small number of notes compared with today. For many notes there would have been no other choice than to use the naturals.

Jacques Guerlain had a technique of mixing light and dark tones, and indeed the classic Guerlain creations had a dark, balsamic, powdery undertone present in them.

(text copied from this thread: The classic Guerlinade basenote? )

 

[Yuri-G]

Oh, I see. Sources suggest it was either the first or ONE of the first.

 

[David Ruskin]

As I wrote above ( number 4) it was the first fragrance to use the newly synthesised vanillin.

 

[David Ruskin]

Parker, in your post above you write a great deal about Guerlain in general and Jicky in particular. Most of your post is in quotes, yet you do not credit the source of your quotes. Also, and this is only my opinion, most of what you wrote is either irrelevant to the topic or so well known as to be unnecessary.

 

[Casper_grassy]

“Trolla the Hun”
“Josef Trollbles”
“Trollis Khan”
“The Chertrollbyl Disaster”
“Barack Trollbama”
“King Leotroll II”
“Winston Trollhill”
“Harry Potter and Trollblet of Fire”

 

[jfrater]

Jicky contained Opoponax 216. If you go to my product page for it you can download the Jacqui formula which contains the right proportions of much of the original Jicky formula - the sandalwood (29%) lavender, rosewood, bergamot, opoponax, etc. are all correct from the original.

 

[pkiler]

C is Coumarin, V is Vanillin, MK is Musk Ketone

 

[julian35]

“Trolla the Hun”
“Josef Trollbles”
“Trollis Khan”
“The Chertrollbyl Disaster”
“Barack Trollbama”
“King Leotroll II”
“Winston Trollhill”
“Harry Potter and Trollblet of Fire”

Unnecessary I think. Let try and keep the forum above playground name-calling.

 

[Casper_grassy]

I know I joke a lot, but I swear on everythig I really can’t figure out what it is, but after the sandalwood it really looks like “giraffe”.

 

[julian35]

I know I joke a lot, but I swear on everythig I really can’t figure out what it is, but after the sandalwood it really looks like “giraffe”.

Clove
Clou de girofle

 

[David Ruskin]

I know I joke a lot, but I swear on everythig I really can’t figure out what it is, but after the sandalwood it really looks like “giraffe”.

It's "Girofle", the French word for Clove, i.e.Clove oil (probably Clove Bud oil, "Clou de Girofle"). Although I notice that in Paul's formula it's spelled Giroffle.

 

[Casper_grassy]

Ohhhhh thank you guys, learned a new word today.
I kept looking at it expecting a light bulb, usually the french formulas are pretty straightforward to translate.

 

[jfrater]

It's "Girofle", the French word for Clove, i.e.Clove oil (probably Clove Bud oil, "Clou de Girofle"). Although I notice that in Paul's formula it's spelled Giroffle.

Maybe the writer was laughing as he wrote it?

 

[David Ruskin]

Roffle roffle, offle.

 

[Yuri-G]

Jicky contained Opoponax 216. If you go to my product page for it you can download the Jacqui formula which contains the right proportions of much of the original Jicky formula - the sandalwood (29%) lavender, rosewood, bergamot, opoponax, etc. are all correct from the original.

Amazing, thank you. I'll try not to copy the perentages too much and try to figure it out, unless it all goes wrong!

 

[Yuri-G]

C is Coumarin, V is Vanillin, MK is Musk Ketone

Thanks Paul!

besides the giraffe, I'm also puzzled by the nasty petals. And the mousse I presume is oakmoss, so that intel about no oakmoss was wrong I guess.

 

[steventeddy]

I'm also puzzled by the nasty petals. And the mousse I presume is oakmoss, so that intel about no oakmoss was wrong I guess.

I believe it says "Neroly" and in the formula Jamie references, he has a neroli base in it. I think the direct translation of mousse is just moss, so it could be treemoss? aka mousse d'arbre rather than mousse de chene.

 

[parker25mv]

I think the direct translation of mousse is just moss, so it could be treemoss? aka mousse d'arbre rather than mousse de chene.

It looks like it says "Mousse absol. Lautier", to me. Or possibly maybe "Lauties".
obviously "absol." is an abbreviation for absolute. The terminology "mousse" seems to be common in French perfumery. (for example, "mousse de saxe")
Of course it literally translates as "moss", but in this context it could perhaps refer to something completely different, maybe a proprietary base. But I'm not an expert in this area so am really not qualified to give any opinion.

 

[julian35]

Thanks Paul!

besides the giraffe, I'm also puzzled by the nasty petals. And the mousse I presume is oakmoss, so that intel about no oakmoss was wrong I guess.

Neroly Petals
Mousse Absolu Lautier[Oakmoss absolute by Lautier Fils from Grasse]

FYI

Maison Lautier 1795: The rebirth of a legend - Nez the olfactory cultural movement

Maison Lautier is currently being renewed by Symrise and is responsible for their full natural ingredients portfolio (Madagascar, Artisan and Supernature ranges). This invites us to re-examine its legacy and continued influence on perfumery.

mag.bynez.com

 

[parker25mv]

Another line on that list can also be pointed out, "Rose Bulgarian (containing 60% geraniol)"
In those times it was common for suppliers to fortify rose absolute by adding geraniol. This gave it a stronger smell. (Then it smelled mostly like geraniol of course, but this product was still marketed as a "rose absolute" and became what people expected in rose fragrances, since there existed a lack of better alternatives at the time)
60% does seem incredibly high to me though.

 

[jfrater]

Another line on that list can also be pointed out, "Rose Bulgarian (containing 60% geraniol)"
In those times it was common for suppliers to fortify rose absolute by adding geraniol. This gave it a stronger smell. (Then it smelled mostly like geraniol of course, but this product was still marketed as a "rose absolute" and became what people expected in rose fragrances, since there existed a lack of better alternatives at the time)
60% does seem incredibly high to me though.

This is entirely untrue.

Rose Bulgarian with no qualifiers is rose otto bulgarian, not absolute. Furthermore, rose oil was far more cost effective than today and it most certainly was not adulterated by any of the great suppliers of the time such as Chiris.

 

[jsweet]

This is entirely untrue.

Rose Bulgarian with no qualifiers is rose otto bulgarian, not absolute. Furthermore, rose oil was far more cost effective than today and it most certainly was not adulterated by any of the great suppliers of the time such as Chiris.

I guess now we know why Parker thinks $200/kilo is a reasonable price for rose extract.

 

[pkiler]

Another line on that list can also be pointed out, "Rose Bulgarian (containing 60% geraniol)"
In those times it was common for suppliers to fortify rose absolute by adding geraniol. This gave it a stronger smell. (Then it smelled mostly like geraniol of course, but this product was still marketed as a "rose absolute" and became what people expected in rose fragrances, since there existed a lack of better alternatives at the time)
60% does seem incredibly high to me though.

Uh, nope.

 

[fabianross]

Jicky had no bases. So, no Opopanax 216 and other numbers. For a very simple reason. In 1889 there was no Givaudan, Chuit Naef or Roure. De Laire was not selling sophisticated bases. Of course, you can use later bases for an easier approach, but keep in mind that those bases have not been invented yet when the perfume was made. If the formula was later twisted, this is another story. In Jicky, original formula you have "EDC Imperiale" (later splitted into major ingredients), also cinnamon (two types) and a millefleurs accord (infusion pommade from rose-jasmine-tuberose !!!!). Good Luck !

 

[fabianross]

The formula presented by Paul and attributed to Henri Robert is indeed a great shorcut to Jicky. However, it is far from the original. Opopanax note is a key note in Jicky. But that opopanax from the XIXth century is not the opopanax we have today. Opopanax got extinct. Many houses made reproductions after 1900 based either on the original opopanax scent or based on the opopanax perfume idea (as seen in the reproduction done by Jamie Frater based on old formulae). Oak moss as such (Mousse Lautier absolute) did not exist in 1889, they were made 20 years later. Moss infusion, maybe … But this aspect is not crucial to Jicky as it is to Mouchoir de Monsieur (a more elegant version of the theme, less oriental, but mossy).

Rose bulgarian 60% geraniol does not exist. It is a way to say that rose bulgarian is mixed with geranium. Geranium is a key element in Jicky. Bulgarian rose is not. Also, by 1889 the industry of rose oil in Bulgaria as we know it today, did not exist. It was initiated by French entrepreneurs after 1890. Adulterations with geraniol came much later when the process of extraction / separation became possible. In 1889 this was entirely unknown. The main theme was geranium-rose oil-rose de mai infusion. No other options.

What is missing in the formula presented by Paul is jasmine. Because in Jicky and in Mouchoir de Monsieur you have a full floral accord, typical for the style of XIXth century. Rose-Jasmine-Tuberose infusions from pommade. The tuberose aspect is not obvious, but it’s there contributing to the richness. It is there, in both original formulae, but hard to detect by nose, because the floral aspect is not dominant.

 

[julian35]

The formula presented by Paul and attributed to Henri Robert is indeed a great shorcut to Jicky. However, it is far from the original.

Opopanax note is a key note in Jicky. But that opopanax from the XIXth century is not the opopanax we have today. Opopanax got extinct. Many houses made reproductions after 1900 based either on the original opopanax scent or based on the opopanax perfume idea (as seen in the reproduction done by Jamie Frater based on old formulae).

Oak moss as such (Mousse Lautier absolute) did not exist in 1889, they were made 20 years later. Moss infusion, maybe … But this aspect is not crucial to Jicky as it is to Mouchoir de Monsieur (a more elegant version of the theme, less oriental, but mossy).

Rose bulgarian 60% geraniol does not exist. It is a way to say that rose bulgarian is mixed with geranium. Geranium is a key element in Jicky. Bulgarian rose is not. Also, by 1889 the industry of rose oil in Bulgaria as we know it today, did not exist. It was initiated by French entrepreneurs after 1890. Adulterations with geraniol came much later when the process of extraction / separation became possible. In 1889 this was entirely unknown. The main theme was geranium-rose oil-rose de mai infusion. No other options.

What is missing in the formula presented by Paul is jasmine. Because in Jicky and in Mouchoir de Monsieur you have a full floral accord, typical for the style of XIXth century. Rose-Jasmine-Tuberose infusions from pommade. The tuberose aspect is not obvious, but it’s there contributing to the richness. It is there, in both original formulae, but hard to detect by nose, because the floral aspect is not dominant.

These are some fascinating facts you present FabianRoss. What is your source? I would like to learn more. How do you know this information?

 

[fabianross]

These are some fascinating facts you present FabianRoss. What is your source? I would like to learn more. How do you know this information?

Hello Julian. My source is my experience as an "old" (not quite old) perfumer with a passion for history. Original formulae (when I have them and when I am sure they are accurate, manuscript seen, not just anecdotes told by others) plus elements related to the history of raw materials and their use. Guerlain and Caron. Also the Osmotheque where I participate.

 

[julian35]

How wonderful Fabian!! Thank you for sharing your "old" knowledge and real experience with us. It is invaluable.
PLEASE stay with us to help keep the truth and history alive.

 

[jsweet]

Jicky had no bases. So, no Opopanax 216 and other numbers. For a very simple reason. In 1889 there was no Givaudan, Chuit Naef or Roure. De Laire was not selling sophisticated bases. Of course, you can use later bases for an easier approach, but keep in mind that those bases have not been invented yet when the perfume was made. If the formula was later twisted, this is another story. In Jicky, original formula you have "EDC Imperiale" (later splitted into major ingredients), also cinnamon (two types) and a millefleurs accord (infusion pommade from rose-jasmine-tuberose !!!!). Good Luck !

So I am happy to be proven wrong since this is a fascinating subject, but I was under the impression that the opoponax bases trace their lineage to Piesse and Lubin's Bouquet Opoponax, released in 1875.

 

[pkiler]

I did look for other Jicky formulas in my endowment, I can see that there are more than the one that I posted, but I could not find them. nearly 98% of any book's "J" alphabetical section is occupied with Jasmine formulas, and no Jicky that I could find easily.
I did notice that the Jicky formulas are likely very early in the timeline of my formulas, but the earlier are the least organized.

I have spent literal days and nights looking for formulas in the past, but I spent only about 20 minutes searching today for more Jicky Formulas. I am sorry to report not finding more to learn from at the present time.

10,000 formulas just takes an inordinate amount of time to go through, without a digital cataloguing.
And since I am also the Librarian, that cataloguing is low on the To Do list. HA!
PK

 

[jfrater]

Jicky had no bases. So, no Opopanax 216 and other numbers. For a very simple reason. In 1889 there was no Givaudan, Chuit Naef or Roure. De Laire was not selling sophisticated bases. Of course, you can use later bases for an easier approach, but keep in mind that those bases have not been invented yet when the perfume was made. If the formula was later twisted, this is another story. In Jicky, original formula you have "EDC Imperiale" (later splitted into major ingredients), also cinnamon (two types) and a millefleurs accord (infusion pommade from rose-jasmine-tuberose !!!!). Good Luck !

Just to add some clarity around opoponax 216 - it was created by Agatstein who was emplyed in the earliest years of Chuit Naef but it may of course have predated the company - after all, De Laire existed from 1876, more than a decade before Jicky came out and four or so years after the mass production of "frost of vanilla" AKA vanillin. There is nothing in opoponax 216 that did not exist the year Jicky came out (mostly naturals - hence the very high price I charge for it) - it is possible that it was part of the first formula but even if not, it was the first opoponax based used in an official Jicky formula but replaced later by Opoonax Doux. Opoponax Doux and Ambreine Samuelson were ultimately the preferred amber bases for Guerlain right up to the late 20th century - though others were used as well of course.

Changes of bases were not uncommon as this was an age of discovery and new things were found all the time. As soon as Ambrarome emerged, Coty added it to Chypre - around the same time as he removed the Musk Ambrette and replaced it entirely with Musk Ketone (originally it used both).

Your mention of the original EDC Imperiale is very interesting - I wasn't aware that it formed a part of the first Jicky formula though that makes a lot of sense. It is a wonderful fragrance and sadly much spoilt in modern reformulations. It is pretty hard to really replicate those beautiful tincture-enriched late 19th century fragrances without a vast library of infusions and even if you do have such a library, some materials are simply gone from the earth forever as genetically altered (via breeding mostly) plants have replaced the originals (case in point being true lavender barreme type).

 

[julian35]

Excellent information Jamie. I am certainly grateful for the depth of knowledge being shared in this posting.

 

[fabianross]

Yes, commercial perfumes, mainly the very old fragrances, knew a time of transition and transformation over time. And bases were introduced to help an emerging industry, with many new brands after mid 1890’s, right after the Universal Exhibition in 1889. De Laire did not sell sophisticated bases around that period and this can be verified via their catalogs and official presentations. Givaudan and Chuit Naef began their business only in 1895. Earlier bases were also inspired by famous perfumes and ideas of the time.

There are two different aspects here. First, the approximate formula of Jicky as it was imagined and written. Second, the evolution of it and its best olfactory representation, via any possible iteration around similar raw materials available at that time. With this perfume we have a prototype (the scent profile) but also the original scent and the referential scent (as it was known by the public via multiple changes made by Guerlain over more than a century). What is Jicky? Well, many things. But the correct approach here is to avoid bases in order to learn the complexity of naturals and very simple aroma chemicals. It was only 10 years ago that Jicky (perfume) was remade according to the original formula by Guerlain. Not for sale, but as a presentation of their heritage and as gift to the Osmotheque. So, no legislation problems. The use of “eau de cologne imperiale” as a part of the reconstruction appeared only at that time – because commercial Jicky (later versions, already vintage) did not use it. Also, the 2 types of cinnamon, the sophisticated floral heart (typical for the XIX-th century) and the approximation of the original opopanax note (quite different from modern opopanax). The perfume sold for decades by Guerlain as a perfume is still a ghost, compared to the original remade, but nevertheless very close.

Anyway, it does not matter that much how you write the formula as long as it is extremely close to the scent profile. I conceptualize the perfume as Cologne Imperiale + Fougere Royale theme + Opopanax perfume theme + a lot of sandalwood + Millefleurs Extrait (just for added richness) + the lemon accent. Millefleurs is actually extrait rose + extrait jasmin + extrait tubereuse. All from pommade. If you use modern absolutes, you are close, but not that much because the odor of jasmine and tuberose extracted the old way is quite different, more animalic. Civette does not stand out in the original formula, it is there, smoothed by florals, perfectly fitting the opopanax theme. It is the opposite of modern versions when its scent is quite obvious. The use of any Opopanax base is welcomed because otherwise it is difficult to harmonize everything. Also, I do not recommend the use of oak moss. Forget about it. If you want it, consider Mouchoir de Monsieur, a variation arround Jicky, less oriental, more mossy, extremely elegant.
Thanks Jamie and Paul for your comments !

 

[fabianross]

I would also add that the quality of raw materials is what made Jicky great. The scent profile can be easily simulated via many approaches. But the original richness is hard to get. The original bergamot (pre IFRA) is “bergamote brute”. It is a full bodied bergamot, more long lasting than the available version today (more Early grey tea to me), with strong floral almost fruity facet and a sharp wild green aspect, not found in commercial qualities today. The lavender used is almost floral, lavender flowers and not lavandin, it is not that aromatic as the regular type, also it has that peculiar jasmine aspect. Geranium is quintessential, old Bourbon quality, extremely rich and diffusive, not the Egyptian or Chinese versions today. Sandalwood is Mysore. Without it, forget Jicky. Original or nothing, because it cannot be replaced by modern molecules (though it was replaced at Guerlain in the past) nor by other natural versions of sandalwood. They just do not work in this context. Beautiful indeed, but they generate another perfume direction.

I would also add that the quality of raw materials is what made Jicky great. The scent profile can be easily simulated via many approaches. But the original richness is hard to get. The original bergamot (pre IFRA) is “bergamote brute”. It is a full bodied bergamot, more long lasting than the available version today (more Earl grey tea to me), with strong floral, almost fruity facets and a sharp wild green aspect, not found in commercial qualities. The lavender used is almost floral, lavender flowers and not lavandin, it is not that aromatic as the regular type, also it has that peculiar jasmine aspect. Geranium is quintessential, old Bourbon quality, extremely rich and diffusive, not the Egyptian or Chinese versions today. Sandalwood is Mysore. Without it, forget Jicky. Original or nothing, because it cannot be replaced by modern molecules (though it was replaced at Guerlain in the past) nor by other natural versions of sandalwood. They just do not work in this context. Beautiful indeed, but they generate another perfume direction.