Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

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zztopp

Basenotes Dependent
Apr 2, 2006
A couple of us analyzed a similar bottle few years ago. It was a mexican distributor.

This is from circa 1965, most probably housing Selection Verte.
 

mtgprox05

Basenotes Dependent
Dec 28, 2007
A couple of us analyzed a similar bottle few years ago. It was a mexican distributor.

This is from circa 1965, most probably housing Selection Verte.

I guess this is common sense, but would you speculate the color is due to its age then?
 
S

Sorcery of Scent

Guest
This seller had quite a large collection of vintage (50s/60s) Creeds, but most have since sold.
His cachet of 'fumes are great.
 

Jazznpool

Basenotes Dependent
Dec 29, 2010

The seller, Jaime, is an excellent man to deal with. I've bought a few vintage Guerlains from him. I think his grandparents owned a large perfume store or wholesale fragrance business in Tijuana. He somehow inherited all the stock and is selling things off on eBay. He auctioned the same Creed Olivier after shave earlier in the week, it went for $75.00. It looks like it is from the early 70's, maybe late 60's. I wonder if at some point one Basenoter will score an old flacon of bespoke fragrance that might predate the aftershave or cologne. I don't vilify Creed at all for confabulating/ amplifying their fragrance history. It does appear that they started in the tailoring business and that fine fragrance was a part of that. The fact that they have a centuries old father to son business legacy is huge as far as marketing goes. The associations of Creed fragrances with icons of the past is likely a blend of fact and fiction. I find this architypal or mythical marketing amusing and fun. It is also quite powerful. Nevertheless, I care more about how the individual Creed fragrances smell/ wear on me.

Martin
 

MOONB

Banned
Nov 5, 2009
If this houses Selection Verte, then that's one amazing aftershave. I suppose it can't predate the days of Olivier running the biz, for an obvious reason. As a design grad, I'm drawn to the simplicity of the bottle and the box. I also notice that the bottle is the same shape as today's Millesime bottles. Really nice.
 

bokaba

Basenotes Dependent
Sep 13, 2007
It houses a the aftershave version of "Olivier Creed" which was a cologne somewhat similar to Selection Verte designed by Olivier Creed. I have a small period decant of the cologne. I would estimate 1960-1970 for the bottle. The cologne was know merely as "Olivier Creed."
 

Topsail

Banned
Mar 19, 2011
Somebody did buy it.

i'll let you all know how i like it. ;)

can't believe i just paid $99 for something that originally sold for like $5. but if unopened like he claims, that's just a vintage relic i have to add to my collection.

and if it's vintage Selection Verte, even better!!!
 

nineXseven

Banned
Feb 19, 2011
i'll let you all know how i like it. ;)

can't believe i just paid $99 for something that originally sold for like $5. but if unopened like he claims, that's just a vintage relic i have to add to my collection.

and if it's vintage Selection Verte, even better!!!

It's aftershave so don't be all that surprised if there isn't that much aroma, or if the aroma is very fleeting. As mentioned above the seller is 100% professional and legit. I buy from him frequently and he does not misrepresent his items.

A couple years ago he had Creed EdTs of the same age (same packaging, bottle design, label, etc.) and I bought into a split of one. Nothing to write home about, unfortunately.
 

MOONB

Banned
Nov 5, 2009
i'll let you all know how i like it. ;)

can't believe i just paid $99 for something that originally sold for like $5. but if unopened like he claims, that's just a vintage relic i have to add to my collection.

and if it's vintage Selection Verte, even better!!!

What makes you think it was really $5 originally?
 

Topsail

Banned
Mar 19, 2011
A couple years ago he had Creed EdTs of the same age (same packaging, bottle design, label, etc.) and I bought into a split of one. Nothing to write home about, unfortunately.

i might not even open it. just have it for collector's sake. if it really is unopened, then i probably won't either.
 

Kevin Guyer

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 16, 2006
In answer to the original question: yes, this is the oldest Creed bottle that I've ever seen. Love to see some older ones, one day.
 

hirch_duckfinder

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Apr 8, 2006
Olivier Creed took over the house in 1973 so this is unlikely to predate that (which makes it more 40 than 50). The seller has had fantastic genuine vintage stock from a stash in the cellar of his eldery relative's perfume shop. He doesn't know much about perfume history though and does tend to elaborate or make things up in order to make them seem more attratctive. A few years ago when selling the cologne mentioned above in this thread he adorned his listing with a story that all Creeds, upon taking over the house had to make a cologne as a right of passage....he larer admitted on these boards after some discussion and excitement that he had made that story up. Stock is all real though....

This comes from the same period as the aforementioned colognes and at 40 ish years old, are the oldest Creeds which anyone here, including at least one professor of history who has spent quite some time researching, has found. I think it is a reasonable assumption that these are the earliest "creed" labelled perfumes/colognes that were made and mark the beginning of creed as a perfume house as opposed to its earlier existence as a taylor (tayloring is what Creed received royal warrants for, not perfume which makes it somewhat misleading to print them on the side of perfume boxes...)
 
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Mar 22, 2011
Found more older threads. Man some people are jumping all over the place over this subject lol. Thought this was friendly place.

Are there other cologne sellers who claim this kinda c**p and then play all outraged when called on the stuff?
 

MOONB

Banned
Nov 5, 2009
So if this is the oldest, then the guys who said that there's no way Creed made this stuff in like 1700's are onto something then.

Go figure. Just read this one.

http://www.basenotes.net/threads/261056-Where-are-all-the-Vintage-Creed-bottles

This debate has been had many times over. There is no answer to the question of where the oldest of the old Creed bottles are. The company has been proven to be over two hundred years old. As most contemporary Creed fans will attest to, the company is notorious for making their older scents next to impossible to find (get any good Vintage Tabarome or Angelique Encens lately?), and whenever they decide to make something unavailable, that usually means it becomes all but a memory to the public. If they don't want people to see what their "vintage" stuff looks like, then people outside the company will very likely never see it. Meanwhile, I'm just glad to see that they've been around for forty years. That's history enough.
 
Mar 22, 2011
Thanks, man, not looking for an argument.

Saw those older threads, the pros and the con. I got my opinion.

No offense intended. I say live and let live. My brother-in-law is a Mormon and he's a nice guy lol but he believes in some funky stuff. Man I hope he's not lurking lol.

I only got one small Creed sample over ebay and and was OK, not bad, good stuff, just not for me, not worth the money. I'll sniff others when in NY, but not right now.

The stuff with Creed reminds me of this

http://www.pristineclassical.com/HattoHoax.html#

Fun stuff.

Had I not read BN, I'd have never known about the Joyce Hatto of the perfume industry.

If we had some big shot journalist among us, he could get a big scoop with this Creed topic.
 

MOONB

Banned
Nov 5, 2009
No offense intended.

Oh no, none taken, nor would I argue with you on the point. Believe me, when I say this has been debated, I'm understating it - I and others have fought veritable wars over it. There are plenty of reasons to suspect that Creed is stretching the truth with their history, and more than one BN member who will illustrate with boundless enthusiasm the ins and outs of that argument. What neither side will ever be able to bring to the table is unshakable proof that Creed is either lying about their past, or entirely truthful. It's a good house to visit and get acquainted with, they make some nice things. Their site does have some material regarding their older Royal Warrants, which have been photographed and documented as authentic, but that's not very surprising as its an ethical business standard in England (where Creed originated). As a tailoring house, these warrants are real. Whether or not their tailoring duties extended into the realm of perfumery as far back as King George III, well, that's not something the salesmen at the Creed boutique could convincingly answer for us. I think, considering all the hubbub this question has stirred among buyers, it might be a good idea for the boys at Creed to dig a little deeper into their archives and put some of these questions to rest. But meanwhile, their modern fragrances are good enough for me personally to not care one way or the other.

One question Creed history buffs should but surprisingly don't ask is, how did Creed go from selling $5 aftershave to very high quality $300 perfumes? If the house really did begin only twenty years ago, who were the master perfumers that brought us the lineup we see today, and where did they come from? That question has always intrigued me more than the Creed timeline.
 

Kevin Guyer

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 16, 2006
Olivier Creed took over the house in 1973 so this is unlikely to predate that (which makes it more 40 than 50).......This comes from the same period as the aforementioned colognes and at 40 ish years old, are the oldest Creeds which anyone here, including at least one professor of history who has spent quite some time researching, has found. I think it is a reasonable assumption that these are the earliest "creed" labelled perfumes/colognes that were made and mark the beginning of creed as a perfume house as opposed to its earlier existence as a taylor (tayloring is what Creed received royal warrants for, not perfume which makes it somewhat misleading to print them on the side of perfume boxes...)
One can say that Olivier Creed is the Baron Münchausen of perfumery. :evil:
 

Bigsly

Basenotes Institution
Feb 20, 2008
I don't think this is the frag equivalent of the Hatto affair because Creed is just claiming that certain frags are old and that certain people wore the frag (perhaps only one time). The point is that they aren't claiming that they are selling "masterpieces," just that some guy who was wealthy, well-known, of certain lineage, etc. wore it for at least a day. Big difference, though of course for marketing purposes it may be very helpful.
 

Bigsly

Basenotes Institution
Feb 20, 2008
"One question Creed history buffs should but surprisingly don't ask is, how did Creed go from selling $5 aftershave to very high quality $300 perfumes? If the house really did begin only twenty years ago, who were the master perfumers that brought us the lineup we see today, and where did they come from?"

He may have had old records of formulas, but there is also the point that some of them are simply not consistent with what is known historically. For example, if someone were to market a Shalimar type of frag that he says is from the mid-1800s, we know that is likely a false claim. In the other thread (cited by hardlynoticeable), Indie_Guy said this:

"I haven't smelled Orange Spice in a little while, but I could swear I smelled aromachemicals that weren't even around in 1950.

Does this make sense?

1950- Orange Spice is created.
1971-Pierre Bourdon becomes a perfumer.
1981-Pierre Bourdon creates Kouros (which smells similar to Orange Spice).
1985-Green Irish Tweed is created.
1988-Cool Water is created by Pierre Bourdon (which smells similar to Green Irish Tweed).
2003-Pierre Bourdon creates Montblanc Individuel.
2005-Original Santal is created (which smells like Individuel).


The word from those in the know is that Pierre Bourdon definitely had a hand in Green Irish Tweed. If this is true, then it establishes a relationship between him and the house of Creed"

Now if this Pierre Bourdon won't answer basic questions on this topic, then it may end here, because who else would have any interest in providing such information?
 

MOONB

Banned
Nov 5, 2009
"One question Creed history buffs should but surprisingly don't ask is, how did Creed go from selling $5 aftershave to very high quality $300 perfumes? If the house really did begin only twenty years ago, who were the master perfumers that brought us the lineup we see today, and where did they come from?"

He may have had old records of formulas, but there is also the point that some of them are simply not consistent with what is known historically. For example, if someone were to market a Shalimar type of frag that he says is from the mid-1800s, we know that is likely a false claim. In the other thread (cited by hardlynoticeable), Indie_Guy said this:

"I haven't smelled Orange Spice in a little while, but I could swear I smelled aromachemicals that weren't even around in 1950.

Does this make sense?

1950- Orange Spice is created.
1971-Pierre Bourdon becomes a perfumer.
1981-Pierre Bourdon creates Kouros (which smells similar to Orange Spice).
1985-Green Irish Tweed is created.
1988-Cool Water is created by Pierre Bourdon (which smells similar to Green Irish Tweed).
2003-Pierre Bourdon creates Montblanc Individuel.
2005-Original Santal is created (which smells like Individuel).


The word from those in the know is that Pierre Bourdon definitely had a hand in Green Irish Tweed. If this is true, then it establishes a relationship between him and the house of Creed"

Now if this Pierre Bourdon won't answer basic questions on this topic, then it may end here, because who else would have any interest in providing such information?

Good points. Likewise, Spice and Wood may be a Bourdon creation, too. We just don't know for sure.

A few things, though (of course ;) ) -

if someone were to market a Shalimar type of frag that he says is from the mid-1800s, we know that is likely a false claim.

I disagree. We know that it's partially false in the sense that the materials used in the mid 1800s were not quite the same as those used in a "Shalimar type of frag", but the history of perfumery as a whole is sketchy at best, with massive gaping holes in the narrative, especially in the 18th and 19th centuries. We have the story of how cologne came about in relative detail. We know where bay rum came from, more or less. And from archival testimony, there's plenty of info on the origins of Guerlain and Chanel. But if one were to ask me if a fragrance like Shalimar could have existed in, say, 1825, neither I or anyone else could give a definitive answer. At best we could say it's unlikely, but when pressed would have little to support our answer. Where did any of our contemporary ideas of perfumery come from, really?


Indie_Guy said this:

"I haven't smelled Orange Spice in a little while, but I could swear I smelled aromachemicals that weren't even around in 1950.

Does this make sense?

Yes and no, with a little extra emphasis on no. But first the yes - true, the aromachemicals in Orange Spice probably didn't exist in the 1940s and '50s. But no, that doesn't mean Orange Spice didn't exist in 1950. The exact same fragrance could have been created using what was available to perfumers during that time, and then simply updated as the decades passed.


1950- Orange Spice is created.
1971-Pierre Bourdon becomes a perfumer.
1981-Pierre Bourdon creates Kouros (which smells similar to Orange Spice).
1985-Green Irish Tweed is created.
1988-Cool Water is created by Pierre Bourdon (which smells similar to Green Irish Tweed).
2003-Pierre Bourdon creates Montblanc Individuel.
2005-Original Santal is created (which smells like Individuel).


The word from those in the know is that Pierre Bourdon definitely had a hand in Green Irish Tweed. If this is true, then it establishes a relationship between him and the house of Creed"

The timeline really doesn't hold up to anything, mainly because Pierre Bourdon is integral to it. What we do know is that Bourdon mimicked a lot of Creed fragrances in the '80s. What we don't know is whether or not he was just an admirer of the then little-known house of Creed, or an on-again, off-again employee who sold the company out a few times by recreating his own formulas for other competing companies. Luca Turin claims that it's no secret inside the industry that Bourdon created Green Irish Tweed, but his claims are unsubstantiated and fail to measure up to simple logic. If Bourdon created Green Irish Tweed in the early '80s, and then stepped out to create Cool Water for Davidoff, he would have provided the masses with an affordable alternative with the second fragrance, making buying the first somewhat pointless. This wouldn't be taken lightly by any CEO - Olivier would be unhappy with the duplication of his house's most successful scent, and very likely would have nothing to do with Bourdon on a professional level again. This makes his supposed follow-up creations for Creed all the more unlikely (like Original Santal).

In any case, there are no answers to these questions. It's fun to speculate, though.
 
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