Input on spicy-rose with fruity, musky, and wood tones?

[zurontos]

Been working on a scent with an emphasis on a spicy Rose with some wood and amber undertones, and an opening of a sweet citrus, peppery, apple. Any pointers where I might've add too much, too little to the list before I add it all together and slave for two weeks?? Had a longer formula but it didn't work too well.

ethylene brassylate		15​
isomethyl ionone alpha		15​
cashmeran		14​
timbersilk		9​
hedione		7​
phenyl ethyl alcohol		6​
citronellol		3.12​
geraniol		1.88​
farnesol		1.25​
rose oxide 10%		0.25​
alpha damascone 10%		0.8​
beta damascone 10%		0.8​
alpha ionone 10%		0.15​
cetalox 10%		0.5​
ethyl maltol .1%		0.05​
javanol 50%		0.9​
black agar		3​
bergamot		2​
amyl Valerate		0.3​
fructone		1.5​
benzyl acetate		0.3​
benzyl benzoate		6​
coumarin		1.7​
benzoin		1.6​
labdanum		0.3​
vanillin		0.1​
geranyl formate		1.5​
cinnamil aldehyde		0.8​
eugenol		0.3​
pink pepper		1.4​
tonka bean absolute		1.5​
amber decane		2​
		100 percent

 

[ScentAle]

How it smells? Maybe big ionone dosage compared to other? I don't know how it smells, maybe is ok there with the rose oxide strong action with damascones.

 

[Casper_grassy]

Your description of what you want vs. what I see are two different things.

I don’t know how it performs or how it smells, but I see you have some apple like materials and the ratios presented, I assume the D Damascone is carrying the apple note.

You’re severely lacking citruses if you want that for an opening, also you can increase the bergamot much more to give it life at the top and it will die out where the apple will pick up with fructone and DDam. Also if it’s at 2% there is no way you can smell it over that massive cashmeran dose.

I would swap the quantities of hedione and AMIonone

 

[zurontos]

Your description of what you want vs. what I see are two different things.

I don’t know how it performs or how it smells, but I see you have some apple like materials and the ratios presented, I assume the D Damascone is carrying the apple note.

You’re severely lacking citruses if you want that for an opening, also you can increase the bergamot much more to give it life at the top and it will die out where the apple will pick up with fructone and DDam. Also if it’s at 2% there is no way you can smell it over that massive cashmeran dose.

I would swap the quantities of hedione and AMIonone

Nicely spotted on the apple notes! Thanks for the input though! Apple is indeed another intentional scent, although cashmeran is a rather new addition to add some further depth and warmth. If it's unnecessary to the rest of the base if it cuts up my apple, then I'm unsure if I'll go with that one. I further figured Damascone would help tie my apple to my rose!

 

[julian35]

 

[parker25mv]

caryophyllene (black pepper like teak wood), symroxane, floramat (spicy dessicated rose), possibly even a little bit of myrrh are all some materials to consider. a little phenoxanol could replace some of the phenyl ethyl alcohol and citronellol if you're looking for something darker and smoother.

If you want more complexity and dry woody texture in there, you might consider adding a little bit of terpenes. I don't know what exact feel you are aiming for. Sometimes calendula can work, maybe with a tiny amount of chamomile.
It sounds strange but I think even a little bit of lavender could work, add something to this fragrance, if by "spicy" you were kind of implying texture (and if that is the case then a little dihydromyrcenol may go along too).

For something spicy, I'd imagine you'd want to keep the fruity components to a minimum. Maybe up the level of eugenol a little bit, I don't know.

I also wonder whether you really want to be adding in alpha damascone. That's going to take your rose fragrance in a more green apple fruit direction.

I don't know, have you thought about maybe fructalate instead of fructone? Maybe something like geranyl butyrate instead of amyl valerate? (see you already have geranyl formate) But you really want to keep any of that to a tiny level.

 

[pkiler]

Here's my thoughts:
Cut isomethyl ionone alpha to half of the current dose and you would likely still be just fine.
With both Coumarin AND Tonka Bean at the same dosage, you will have a super abundance of coumarin. Honestly, that is way too much Tonka... I'd cut the Tonka to 10% of that dose and see if you want to add any more.
You might want to cut the Cashmeran down to 1/3 of the current dose.
Timbersilk / Iso E Super may need to be doubled, you are kind of short on middle notes.
And Topnotes of Citrus you say? Where?
You are going to need more green notes, and need more Linalool / Linalyl acetate / Bergamot / Lavender / Coriander / Corinol / type of materials.
You also need some tippy top notes, like maybe Rosemary Ct Cineole.

 

[zurontos]

Here's my thoughts:
Cut isomethyl ionone alpha to half of the current dose and you would likely still be just fine.
With both Coumarin AND Tonka Bean at the same dosage, you will have a super abundance of coumarin. Honestly, that is way too much Tonka... I'd cut the Tonka to 10% of that dose and see if you want to add any more.
You might want to cut the Cashmeran down to 1/3 of the current dose.
Timbersilk / Iso E Super may need to be doubled, you are kind of short on middle notes.
And Topnotes of Citrus you say? Where?
You are going to need more green notes, and need more Linalool / Linalyl acetate / Bergamot / Lavender / Coriander / Corinol / type of materials.
You also need some tippy top notes, like maybe Rosemary Ct Cineole.

Went ahead and went with that last note. I was also thinking cyclamen. Went ahead and purged cashmeran to 3, bergamot was increased to 4 percent, and I removed coumarin as I forgot tonka bean actually had coumarin in it. I suppose cashmeran was so high as to go alongside my other base ingredients but I'll admit I might have jumped the gun on that one XD. Maybe adding in cyclamen aldehyde alongside rosemary ct cineole and linalool would be a good decision afterall.

 

[zurontos]

I've taken the advice here and thought long and hard about the total formula with the considerations in mind. Just can't decide if I want cyclamen aldehyde in it or not, and at the moment I've got .5 percent left to fill in, so while I scratch my head, I'll post this. Next month or in March at the most I'll be ordering all my materials since I've set the deadline for myself by then (I tend to be too indecisive if I don't have a deadline). I think more than anything, I should work on what I want to fill the gap of heart notes, as eugenol does not feel enough to fill that gap as a single material. I could try going for ylang Ylang oil or safranol and saffreonate, but I'm unsure how that last one would play with the rest, seeing as I'm somewhat familiar with quite a few ingredients on the list, but never have I touched anything saffron related.

ethylene brassylate		15​
isomethyl ionone alpha		10​
cashmeran		3​
timbersilk		12​
hedione		15​
phenyl ethyl alcohol		6​
citronellol		3.12​
geraniol		1.88​
farnesol		1.25​
rose oxide 10%		0.25​
beta damascone 10%		0.8​
alpha ionone 10%		0.15​
cetalox 10%		0.5​
ethyl maltol .1%		0.05​
javanol 50%		1​
black agar		3​
bergamot		4​
Geranyl Butyrate		1​
fructone		4​
benzyl acetate		1​
Triethyl Citrate		4​
benzoin		1.6​
labdanum		0.3​
vanillin		0.1​
geranyl formate		1.5​
cinnamil aldehyde		1​
eugenol		0.6​
pink pepper		1.5​
tonka bean absolute		0.1​
amber decane		2​
linalool		1​
cis-3 Hexenyl Salicylate		1.5​
coriander		1​
cardomom		0.3​
		99.5%

 

[pkiler]

Writing a complex formula out ahead of time is the skill of experience. Time to make it.

 

[parker25mv]

Just can't decide if I want cyclamen aldehyde in it or not

Well, spicy often does not go with fresh very well.
pkiler is right that green/citrus notes may be something to seriously consider. But a lot of those green or citrus notes can be extremely "fresh" and clash too much with spicy, and I guess you're going more for a spicy rose feel.

(Hope this is not too complicated to think about, but I will note that fresh does not always clash with spicy, but certain types of fresh/clean)

There are really lots of possibilities here, too long to mention.
This was one of the reasons I had suggested maybe subsituting out a small percentage of the citronellol with phenoxanol.
I don't want to overwhelm you with choices, and the last thing you want to be doing is just adding more ingredients, but here are some more possibilities to think about. Maybe a little bit of cardamom, could add citrus/green tones, it is a "spice", but depends whether you are going for "spicy" or "spicy hot", if you're trying to make it more spicy hot, it may not be the best choice since it can be a little bit cooling.
Elemi, can be both citrus and kind of spicy, it's type of freshness doesn't clash hot too much, and it can work with rose, but some people don't like it because it's kind of a weird smell.
If you're considering a grapefruit note, a very tiny bit of methyl pamplemousse could be something to consider, if you use it below the threshold level where the grapefruit note is consciously perceptible. A subtle grapefruit note can go with some types of rose fragrances, but it very much depends what sort of feel you are after. It has green and citrus tonalities. If you do use it, I'd keep its smell to a very minimum, it could easily ruin your fragrance.
You could also consider a tiny hint of rose oxide, that can add fresh green floral shop tonalities, sort of reminiscent of the smell of camellia (kind of a musky white camellia) or specifically white florist cut roses. Its type of freshness does not clash with spicy hot too much. It also can work well with citrus notes, and of course rose. But it might not be the type of rose note that you want (rose contains several very different notes, each somehow reminiscent of rose but smelling very different). You seem to want some fruity effect in your rose, so maybe doremox should be one to consider. It has a very similar effect to rose oxide except more fruity, it's like a green unripe tropical starfruit. If you're looking for a tropical fruitiness but one that's not too sweet or fruity, this could be the one to use.
pkiler mentions lavender, linalool, linalyl acetate, these are fall under the "lavender" category which have notes that can be a little bit citrus like. Linalyl acetate is a bit more in the fruity direction, and you may want to give consideration to that. It could help fulfill the role that you are currently using other ACs for, since its "fruitiness" is more mild and not obnoxious (and even calling it "fruity" is a big stretch). But keep in mind linalool and linalyl acetate, while similar, are not substitutes for each other, they fulfill different roles. This is probably a terrible analogy but linalool fills a role more like phenylethyl alcohol, whereas linalyl acetate is more transparent, faintly sweet, more mild. Linalyl acetate is kind of going to be closer to the category of your gernanyl formate, and I'm thinking you could use its effect to help replace fructone and amyl valerate. But this is not terribly important, this is only a very small detail of your fragrance. I don't want to create the misleading impression that just because I write a lot of detail about one subject means that it's an important part of your overall fragrance. You may already be aware that lavender already naturally contains both linalool and linalyl acetate.
None of these listed are really wonderful ideas that will really dramatically improve your fragrance. They are just tiny tweaks and improvements to consider, different possible directions you could try to take the formula.

Two others that can be hard to source, but which could add effects to your fragrance are muguet carbinol (which has some subtle rose-like green note) and cyclomethylene citronellol.
Muguet Carbinol: if anything... (Feb 19, 2023 posted by PeeWee678 )

If you wanted to explore more of the bergamot direction:
ACs to reinforce Bergamot (March 2, 2022 posted by parker25mv)

 

[parker25mv]

If by "spicy rose" you were being inspired by those magenta color rugosa roses (the thick bushes with lots of tiny thorns), I think the two most naturally important components in the smell of that are eugenol and citronellol, but unfortunately the natural citronellol found in rose in much superior to the grade of citronellol commercially available to perfumers, and so often (in my opinion) it forces one to have to resort to other "citronellol-like" ACs, which are still inferior to natural rose citronellol, but at least don't have the less-than-pleasant odor aspect reminiscent of cleaning products that commercial grade citronellol has, which can ruin some fragrances if not used in moderation. (So there are ACs like phenoxanol, cyclomethylene citronellol, tetrahydro geraniol, etc; some of the muguet ACs to a very limited extent; and even linalool and citral can partially replace its effect, though of course the latter are much more lavender or lemon sherbet in character)
I think there also might be some "cinnamon"-type chemicals as a third contributor to the smell of these magenta rugosa roses, like methyl cinnamate or cinnamyl alcohol. Maybe a little cinnamon leaf oil could be useful here.

 

[zurontos]

Well, spicy often does not go with fresh very well.
pkiler is right that green/citrus notes may be something to seriously consider. But a lot of those green or citrus notes can be extremely "fresh" and clash too much with spicy, and I guess you're going more for a spicy rose feel.

(Hope this is not too complicated to think about, but I will note that fresh does not always clash with spicy, but certain types of fresh/clean)

There are really lots of possibilities here, too long to mention.
This was one of the reasons I had suggested maybe subsituting out a small percentage of the citronellol with phenoxanol.
I don't want to overwhelm you with choices, and the last thing you want to be doing is just adding more ingredients, but here are some more possibilities to think about. Maybe a little bit of cardamom, could add citrus/green tones, it is a "spice", but depends whether you are going for "spicy" or "spicy hot", if you're trying to make it more spicy hot, it may not be the best choice since it can be a little bit cooling.
Elemi, can be both citrus and kind of spicy, it's type of freshness doesn't clash hot too much, and it can work with rose, but some people don't like it because it's kind of a weird smell.
If you're considering a grapefruit note, a very tiny bit of methyl pamplemousse could be something to consider, if you use it below the threshold level where the grapefruit note is consciously perceptible. A subtle grapefruit note can go with some types of rose fragrances, but it very much depends what sort of feel you are after. It has green and citrus tonalities. If you do use it, I'd keep its smell to a very minimum, it could easily ruin your fragrance.
You could also consider a tiny hint of rose oxide, that can add fresh green floral shop tonalities, sort of reminiscent of the smell of camellia (kind of a musky white camellia) or specifically white florist cut roses. Its type of freshness does not clash with spicy hot too much. It also can work well with citrus notes, and of course rose. But it might not be the type of rose note that you want (rose contains several very different notes, each somehow reminiscent of rose but smelling very different). You seem to want some fruity effect in your rose, so maybe doremox should be one to consider. It has a very similar effect to rose oxide except more fruity, it's like a green unripe tropical starfruit. If you're looking for a tropical fruitiness but one that's not too sweet or fruity, this could be the one to use.
pkiler mentions lavender, linalool, linalyl acetate, these are fall under the "lavender" category which have notes that can be a little bit citrus like. Linalyl acetate is a bit more in the fruity direction, and you may want to give consideration to that. It could help fulfill the role that you are currently using other ACs for, since its "fruitiness" is more mild and not obnoxious (and even calling it "fruity" is a big stretch). But keep in mind linalool and linalyl acetate, while similar, are not substitutes for each other, they fulfill different roles. This is probably a terrible analogy but linalool fills a role more like phenylethyl alcohol, whereas linalyl acetate is more transparent, faintly sweet, more mild. Linalyl acetate is kind of going to be closer to the category of your gernanyl formate, and I'm thinking you could use its effect to help replace fructone and amyl valerate. But this is not terribly important, this is only a very small detail of your fragrance. I don't want to create the misleading impression that just because I write a lot of detail about one subject means that it's an important part of your overall fragrance. You may already be aware that lavender already naturally contains both linalool and linalyl acetate.
None of these listed are really wonderful ideas that will really dramatically improve your fragrance. They are just tiny tweaks and improvements to consider, different possible directions you could try to take the formula.

Two others that can be hard to source, but which could add effects to your fragrance are muguet carbinol (which has some subtle rose-like green note) and cyclomethylene citronellol.
Muguet Carbinol: if anything... (Feb 19, 2023 posted by PeeWee678 )

If you wanted to explore more of the bergamot direction:
ACs to reinforce Bergamot (March 2, 2022 posted by parker25mv)

You're on the money. I really meant tones of citrus. Not a heavy amount, or even a medium amount, but its more so something to tie into the apple scent, and uplift a common attribute found within the qualities of many flowers. I suppose it was misleading to not suppose it be a nuance that creates more depth. Funny enough, I did consider cardamom, but I have switched that out for saffron oil red infusion from perfumers world, 2.2 percent total. Added some cis 3 hexanol as well. Figured with the 4 percent of black agar 215/2, it could help to create a spiced dark rose. I suppose the direction has headed into a more Mysterios rose fragrance with notes that tie into each other more than anything else.

 

[parker25mv]

I really meant tones of citrus. Not a heavy amount, or even a medium amount, but its more so something to tie into the apple scent, and uplift a common attribute found within the qualities of many flowers.

Well, I guess the question is what type of citrus? More in a lemon direction, or orange direction?
Were you envisioning something more in the direction like magnolia flowers?

I think you might need more experience with floral scents and different types of floral formulas, to familiarise yourself with the different ACs and how they come together.
Maybe try to do a search in this forum for "apple blossom".

You also have to consider if you were going for more a "transparent" or "opaque" floral scent. There are some different categories of "floral", so it's hard to know what you are envisioning.

Maybe you should try experimenting on the side to make a prototype floral accord, to get a better idea of what will match with your fragrance.
I would recommend including linalool, linalyl acetate, cinnamyl alcohol, maybe a few different types of salicylates, methyl anthranilate. Do this separately, don't try mixing it in with the rest of your fragrance.

(Florol and hydroxcitronellal are two more you might consider using in your floral accord experiments. Not that you will end up using them in your final formula, but they can serve as placeholders to compliment and allow you to better evaluate the other components. You might even try magnolan, if you already have it. I'd also familiarise yourself with the role indole can play in floral fragrances, even though it might not smell good by itself)

 

[parker25mv]

Sorry for stating the obvious but if you're going to create a rose and apple fragrance it might make more sense to consider using Damascenone Total rather than a combination of alpha and beta damascone.