How does Laevo-Citronellol compare to normal Citronellol?

[Capybaron]

Hello community,

i´m currently working on rose accords and i´m quite happy so far. I´m trying to go for a " soft citric rose" with fruity aspects.

Currently i have to take a break from testing, because for some reason i very quickly grow anosmatic to PEA and other rose materials.

Yet, i notice that i tend to be unhappy with citronellol. It got the citric aspects i want, but also has a harsh note; Something i associate with citronella, anti-tick sprays, or "cheap" lemon flavoring.

I´ve read that your type of Citronellol can make a difference and that laevo-citronellol is softer.
It´s also vastly more expensive, which is why i´m asking before actually buying it.

Sadly acquiring stuff like natural rhodinol is not viable at the moment. (Only european source i´ve found, was from heskerj. And i´ve bought it, but it´s ex citronella and smells very much like citronella.)

For the record, here is one of my current accords, in case you spot any issues with the accord itself:

PEA 372
Citronellol 266
Geraniol 168
Rose Crystals 50
Rose Absolue Bulgarian 50
Farnesol 40
Nerol 20
Rose Oxide 1% 20
Chamomille EO 10
Beta Damascone 4

This is not final by any means, but my current starting point for further experiments. For example, i still have to figure out how much eugenol, if any, i want to add, i will play around with different amounts of Nerol and Rose oxide, etc. But as is, apart from perhaps still too much rose oxide in the opening, it´s pretty soft, yet citric-bright and somewhat fruity, with the soft drydown of rose crystals. Yet especially the citronellol sticks out like a sore thumb somewhat; Maybe i should reduce it´s amount. But if Laevo-Citronellol is softer, this might be the way to go, because i actually want a relatively strong citric note.

I´ve also played around with adding some egyptian geranium EO an while this adds some softness, it also adds too much of a dirty peppermint note.

Thanks for any input and have a great day.

 

[mnitabach]

IME (extensive) constructing & analyzing rose accords, using l-citronellol makes a huge difference in exactly the way you seek. I have the l-citronellol sold by PSH (I think it's Takasago). Also, IME you can round/smooth the citrus effect with judicious use of cinnamyl alcohol & some phenylacetate, such as phenethyl phenylacetate and/or phenyl acetic acid. The latter also work beautifully (particularly PAA) to enliven the gorgeous but subdued rose crystals drydown. Take a look at the Poucher rose accords & you'll see example.

 

[Capybaron]

Thanks for your thoughts.

Also it´s especially interesting that you mention phenylacetate. While i already had the idea to add cinnamyl alcohol, but didn´t try it yet, i didn´t think of phenylacetate, despite really liking this material.

Edit: Whoops, mixed up Phenylacetate and Pheny ethyl acetate. I really like Pheny ethyl acetate, and might thus try it, but it´s not what you suggested. I´m not a huge fan of phenylacetate on it´s own, but might try it in the accord; As always, judging materials on their own is pretty futile.

 

[mnitabach]

Thanks for your thoughts.

Also it´s especially interesting that you mention phenylacetate. While i already had the idea to add cinnamyl alcohol, but didn´t try it yet, i didn´t think of phenylacetate, despite really liking this material.

Edit: Whoops, mixed up Phenylacetate and Pheny ethyl acetate. I really like Pheny ethyl acetate, and might thus try it, but it´s not what you suggested. I´m not a huge fan of phenylacetate on it´s own, but might try it in the accord; As always, judging materials on their own is pretty futile.

Yes, whether you "like" how a particular aromamaterial "smells" on its own is neither here nor there.

 

[mnitabach]

Thanks for your thoughts.

Also it´s especially interesting that you mention phenylacetate. While i already had the idea to add cinnamyl alcohol, but didn´t try it yet, i didn´t think of phenylacetate, despite really liking this material.

Edit: Whoops, mixed up Phenylacetate and Pheny ethyl acetate. I really like Pheny ethyl acetate, and might thus try it, but it´s not what you suggested. I´m not a huge fan of phenylacetate on it´s own, but might try it in the accord; As always, judging materials on their own is pretty futile.

To be quite clear, phenethyl phenylacetate & phenyl acetic acid are quite different, while related.

 

[Emanuel76]

Sadly acquiring stuff like natural rhodinol is not viable at the moment. (Only european source i´ve found, was from heskerj. And i´ve bought it, but it´s ex citronella and smells very much like citronella.)

Ouch! I forgot to also check at Hekserij.
I just bought Rhodinol 70 at a three times higher price. I hope it's not so bad.

 

[ScentAle]

Same, I have rhodinol natural isolate ex citronella and I don't find interesting, it is too much similar to citronella.

 

[Emanuel76]

Only european source i´ve found, was from heskerj. And i´ve bought it, but it´s ex citronella and smells very much like citronella.

For small quantities:

Rhodinol Natural (Ex. Geranium) — Marina Barcenilla Parfums

Rhodinol Natural Isolate Fraction isolated from geranium essential oil (Egypt)

mbparfums.com

For large quantitites:

RHODINOL, EX-GERANIUM

RHODINOL, EX-GERANIUM -

www.ventos.com

 

[David Ruskin]

Hello community,

i´m currently working on rose accords and i´m quite happy so far. I´m trying to go for a " soft citric rose" with fruity aspects.

Currently i have to take a break from testing, because for some reason i very quickly grow anosmatic to PEA and other rose materials.

Yet, i notice that i tend to be unhappy with citronellol. It got the citric aspects i want, but also has a harsh note; Something i associate with citronella, anti-tick sprays, or "cheap" lemon flavoring.

I´ve read that your type of Citronellol can make a difference and that laevo-citronellol is softer.
It´s also vastly more expensive, which is why i´m asking before actually buying it.

Sadly acquiring stuff like natural rhodinol is not viable at the moment. (Only european source i´ve found, was from heskerj. And i´ve bought it, but it´s ex citronella and smells very much like citronella.)

For the record, here is one of my current accords, in case you spot any issues with the accord itself:

PEA 372
Citronellol 266
Geraniol 168
Rose Crystals 50
Rose Absolue Bulgarian 50
Farnesol 40
Nerol 20
Rose Oxide 1% 20
Chamomille EO 10
Beta Damascone 4

This is not final by any means, but my current starting point for further experiments. For example, i still have to figure out how much eugenol, if any, i want to add, i will play around with different amounts of Nerol and Rose oxide, etc. But as is, apart from perhaps still too much rose oxide in the opening, it´s pretty soft, yet citric-bright and somewhat fruity, with the soft drydown of rose crystals. Yet especially the citronellol sticks out like a sore thumb somewhat; Maybe i should reduce it´s amount. But if Laevo-Citronellol is softer, this might be the way to go, because i actually want a relatively strong citric note.

I´ve also played around with adding some egyptian geranium EO an while this adds some softness, it also adds too much of a dirty peppermint note.

Thanks for any input and have a great day.

Sounds as if your citronellol is not of the best quality. Sounds as if it is contaminated with citronellal; or is old and some has oxidised to citronellal.

 

[jsweet]

Yet especially the citronellol sticks out like a sore thumb somewhat; Maybe i should reduce it´s amount. But if Laevo-Citronellol is softer, this might be the way to go, because i actually want a relatively strong citric note.

I think you're on the right track in reducing the citronellol if you find it's impact on the blend offputting. I highly recommend phenyl hexanol/phenohexanol for a citrus rose. I've used it as a bridge between rose and citrus in a few blends now and it's one of my favorite materials.

Also, don't leave out limonene and citral to move it along toward a citric note.

 

[jfrater]

For small quantities:

Rhodinol Natural (Ex. Geranium) — Marina Barcenilla Parfums

Rhodinol Natural Isolate Fraction isolated from geranium essential oil (Egypt)

mbparfums.com

For large quantitites:

RHODINOL, EX-GERANIUM

RHODINOL, EX-GERANIUM -

www.ventos.com

I also stock Rhodinol ex geranium - for a good price. It is a lovely material.

Rhodinol Ex Geranium Bourbon

Rhodinol ex Geranium Bourbon comes closest to the scent of rose otto than any other single raw perfumery material making it extremely valuable in reconstructions of rose absolute and oils and an excellent additive in the highest class muguet bases. This product is naturally isolated from...

fraterworks.com

 

[parker25mv]

Same, I have rhodinol natural isolate ex citronella and I don't find interesting, it is too much similar to citronella.

It depends what the rhodinol is sourced from. You might want to try rhodinol ex geranium.

This shouldn't be surprising. If the problem is the complaint that generic citronellol smells too much like citronella, why would anyone think rhodinol sourced from citronella would be any better?

 

[parker25mv]

Phenoxanol and cyclomethylene citronellol are two ACs that can give some of the effect of laevo-citronellol (without the citronella effect), but they are NOT a substitute and cannot completely replace it. They can however be used to help "extend" the citronellol effect.

I would describe generic citronellol as having a little bit of an off-putting, maybe almost slightly metallic, citronella-like twang. It is possible to use it for rose, but it is simply not as beautiful as the real thing and kind of pollutes the fragrance to the point that you want to mimimise the level of generic citronellol used.

Another little trick that can help extend the "citronellol-like" effect is to add a little nerol. But again, it is not really a full substitute for citronellol. (nerol is distinctly much more "orange color" than the "yellow color" feel of citronellol) In some situations even a little citral could help give a replacement of the effect (although citral is more like lemon drop candy than sharp lemon or rose, and is even more of an allergen than citronellol).

 

[chyprefresh]

Another little trick that can help extend the "citronellol-like" effect is to add a little nerol.

How can this be? Nerol has 12 hours less subtantivity than citronellol. Are you saying to use a lot more nerol than citronellol to 'extend' the similar rose facet?

 

[parker25mv]

How can this be? Nerol has 12 hours less subtantivity than citronellol. Are you saying to use a lot more nerol than citronellol to 'extend' the similar rose facet?

That is not the meaning of "extend" that I meant. You are misunderstanding.

I meant that if you want to try to use a little less citronellol but want some of its effect, or at least some effect that is similar to it, you could try replacing a small percentage of it.
As some rough hypothetical example to illustrate the point, instead of using 100 parts citronellol, you could try reducing it down to 60 parts, then 27 parts Phenoxanol and 12 parts nerol and maybe 1 part citral.

 

[chyprefresh]

I understand now, when I hear extend I literally imagine something being longer.

 

[David Ruskin]

Depending on the quality of citronellol most grades will contain small amounts of geraniol and nerol. A very common grade is called citronellol 98 TA, meaning 98% total alcohols, meaning 98% of the product is citronellol, geraniol, and nerol. The rest is madde up of various esters of the three alcohols. The purer the quality of citronellol the more expensive it will be.

Laevo Citronellol will also contain small amounts of rose oxide which will affect the overall smell.

 

[Capybaron]

Sounds as if your citronellol is not of the best quality. Sounds as if it is contaminated with citronellal; or is old and some has oxidised to citronellal.

This might certainly be the case, although i´ve added some vitamin a and stored it in the fridge it might have been off before.

I think you're on the right track in reducing the citronellol if you find it's impact on the blend offputting. I highly recommend phenyl hexanol/phenohexanol for a citrus rose. I've used it as a bridge between rose and citrus in a few blends now and it's one of my favorite materials.

Also, don't leave out limonene and citral to move it along toward a citric note.

Reducing the citronellol was apparently really a valid move. I did so, and also added phenohexanol, and it smells far softer, fruitier, and not nearly as harsh anymore. Beginning is really fruity, but it quickly mellows out. Next morning it´s a pretty soft citronellol so far.

Pretty happy so far. Needs further refinement, but my nose has to chill for a few days, since i can´t smell pea at all at the moment. It´s annoying to get anosmia with this material pretty much instantly.

This is the current formula:

PEA 355,000
Citronellol 200,000
Geraniol 160,000
Farnesol 40,000
Beta Damascone 4,000
Rose Oxide 1% 10,000
Nerol 30,000
Linalool 20,000
Rose Absolue Bulgarian 50,000
Chamomille EO 10,000
Phenylhexanol 50,000
Rose Crystals 50,000
Methyl Isoeugenol 10,000
Phenylethylacetat 10,000
Aldehyde c11 Undecylenic 1,000

 

[Capybaron]

For small quantities:

Rhodinol Natural (Ex. Geranium) — Marina Barcenilla Parfums

Rhodinol Natural Isolate Fraction isolated from geranium essential oil (Egypt)

mbparfums.com

Sadly, this site would be perfect and would offer some materials i´d be very interested in- But they don´t ship outside of the UK.

 

[Emanuel76]

Sadly, this site would be perfect and would offer some materials i´d be very interested in- But they don´t ship outside of the UK.

I didn't even noticed that pop-up until now.
I'll ask her. Maybe she'll change her mind.

Rhodinol Natural Ex Geranium
Cis-3-Hexenol Natural
Blue Hemlock
Black Hemlock
Allspice / Pimento
Oakwood Absolute (50% in TEC)

 

[mnitabach]

This might certainly be the case, although i´ve added some vitamin a and stored it in the fridge it might have been off before.



Reducing the citronellol was apparently really a valid move. I did so, and also added phenohexanol, and it smells far softer, fruitier, and not nearly as harsh anymore. Beginning is really fruity, but it quickly mellows out. Next morning it´s a pretty soft citronellol so far.

Pretty happy so far. Needs further refinement, but my nose has to chill for a few days, since i can´t smell pea at all at the moment. It´s annoying to get anosmia with this material pretty much instantly.

This is the current formula:

PEA 355,000
Citronellol 200,000
Geraniol 160,000
Farnesol 40,000
Beta Damascone 4,000
Rose Oxide 1% 10,000
Nerol 30,000
Linalool 20,000
Rose Absolue Bulgarian 50,000
Chamomille EO 10,000
Phenylhexanol 50,000
Rose Crystals 50,000
Methyl Isoeugenol 10,000
Phenylethylacetat 10,000
Aldehyde c11 Undecylenic 1,000

It would definitely be interesting for you to try adding 10 ppt phenyl acetic acid and/or 1 ppt phenyl acetaldehyde.

 

[Capybaron]

Oh, i certainly didn´t forget your notes and ideas!

Due to my nose quickly tiring of rose materials, testing takes time. But the next thing i will try is indeed adding phenyl acetaldehyde. It´s one of the materials i like, but i haven´t used yet much, so that´s interesting- Especially since, as you noted, it could support the quiet rose crystals in the dry down.

 

[mnitabach]

Oh, i certainly didn´t forget your notes and ideas!

Due to my nose quickly tiring of rose materials, testing takes time. But the next thing i will try is indeed adding phenyl acetaldehyde. It´s one of the materials i like, but i haven´t used yet much, so that´s interesting- Especially since, as you noted, it could support the quiet rose crystals in the dry down.

It's phenyl acetic acid that persists into the long drydown. Phenyl acetaldehyde doesn't contribute nearly as long into the evaporation curve.

 

[Capybaron]

It's phenyl acetic acid that persists into the long drydown. Phenyl acetaldehyde doesn't contribute nearly as long into the evaporation curve.

Good to know! Mhm, wouldn´t know where to source Phenyl acetic acid right now. Maybe pcw offers it. I will add it to the list.

Didn´t test the longevity of Phenyl Acetaldehyde ymyself et, but goodscentscompany gives it 400 hours on a scent strip, which made me think that it lasts quite a while.

 

[Emanuel76]

Sadly, this site would be perfect and would offer some materials i´d be very interested in- But they don´t ship outside of the UK.

Hello!

This is Marina.

I wish it was that easy, but it's not about changing our mind, it's about the fact that it's illegal to send dangerous goods without special training and, at the moment, we don't have anybody who can do it! Also, since Brexit, some countries don't allow perfumes unless the buyer has an import licence, or just return the parcels, including Spain and Italy. It's also very expensive!

If you let me know what you would like to order and a full delivery address, I can speak to one of our forwarding partners and ask for a quote, then let you know how much it will be.
Thank you for your interest, we appreciate it

Marina

I have a lot of aromatics for the rose, and one of the most important - Citronellol Laevo - I do not like it at all. 😆
I must have Rhodinol Natural Ex Geranium.

 

[parker25mv]

I have a lot of aromatics for the rose, and one of the most important - Citronellol Laevo - I do not like it at all. 😆

I almost wonder if your citronellol has gone off. It's personally hard for me to understand how someone could not like citronellol at all.
If you do not dislike the smell of tetrahydro geraniol, then there might be something wrong with your citronellol.

Do you dislike the smell of lemons and geraniol too?

 

[mnitabach]

I have a lot of aromatics for the rose, and one of the most important - Citronellol Laevo - I do not like it at all. 😆
I must have Rhodinol Natural Ex Geranium.

Whether someone "likes" how an aromamaterial in isolation "smells" has essentially nothing to do with perfumery.

 

[Emanuel76]

I almost wonder if your citronellol has gone off.

I don't think so.

It's personally hard for me to understand how someone could not like citronellol at all.

Well, I'm definitely not a freshie guy. 😋

If you do not dislike the smell of tetrahydro geraniol, then there might be something wrong with your citronellol.

I don't know how Tetrahydro Geraniol smells like.

It's on my wish list (DirectPCW). 😋

Do you dislike the smell of lemons and geraniol too?

Not a big fan of Lemon.
Geraniol it's OK.

Whether someone "likes" how an aromamaterial in isolation "smells" has essentially nothing to do with perfumery.

When in a Rose base Citronellol is at 30-40-50%, I doubt the base will not have a pronounced green tint. I don't want a greenish rose.

 

[David Ruskin]

I am confused. I would never have described citronellol as Green. Of the three common rose alcohols; PEA is watery, Tea Rose; Geraniol is citrus rose; Citronellol is Red Rose.

When an ingredient is used as often as citronellol, you have to ask yourself, why? There must be some point in its popularity. It is unimportant if you do or don't like the smell of a single material. What is important is what can be done with it. Citronellol has been used in many, many different fragrances. To dismiss it out of hand is, at best, naive.

Comparing citronellol with the smells of other chemicals is not, in my opinion, terrible helpful.

 

[mnitabach]

H

I don't think so.


Well, I'm definitely not a freshie guy. 😋


I don't know how Tetrahydro Geraniol smells like.

It's on my wish list (DirectPCW). 😋


Not a big fan of Lemon.
Geraniol it's OK.


When in a Rose base Citronellol is at 30-40-50%, I doubt the base will not have a pronounced green tint. I don't want a greenish rose.

Have you actually made a rose accord??? You can set the balance between geraniol & citronellol & PEA wherever you like. My suggestion would be that instead of sniffing individual aromamaterials & posting verbose descriptions of how they smell to you & whether you "like" them or not, that you devote the time recovered to assembling & testing combinations of aromamaterials, specifically in regard to the topic of this thread rose accord.

 

[Emanuel76]

Citronellol is Red Rose.

Wow! I didn't expect that.
Mine smells citrus-herbal, like citronella.

When an ingredient is used as often as citronellol, you have to ask yourself, why? There must be some point in its popularity.

Well, I thought because a lot of people like their rose a bit more on the green side.

To dismiss it out of hand is, at best, naive.

I don't dismiss it.
But I want to be prepared for when I start blending, with something less green, too.

Have you actually made a rose accord??? You can set the balance between geraniol & citronellol & PEA wherever you like. My suggestion would be that instead of sniffing individual aromamaterials & posting verbose descriptions of how they smell to you & whether you "like" them or not, that you devote the time recovered to assembling & testing combinations of aromamaterials, specifically in regard to the topic of this thread rose accord.

I already told you that only in the fall I'll start blending.
For now that's all I can do, to smell them.

 

[mnitabach]

Wow! I didn't expect that.
Mine smells citrus-herbal, like citronella.


Well, I thought because a lot of people like their rose a bit more on the green side.


I don't dismiss it.
But I want to be prepared for when I start blending with something less green, too.


I already told you that only in the fall I start with blends.
For now that's all I can do, to smell them.

Well, I think you are wasting your own time & effort. And the time & effort of the people on here who are reading your posts & replying to them. I will try to remember not to...

 

[jsweet]

Wow! I didn't expect that.
Mine smells citrus-herbal, like citronella.

Are you sure you are not smelling citronellal.

 

[Emanuel76]

Well, I think you are wasting your own time & effort. And the time & effort of the people on here who are reading your posts & replying to them. I will try to remember not to...

Well, of course, It's your choice.

Are you sure you are not smelling citronellal.

No. It's Citronellol Laveo from DirectPCW.

​

.

 

[David Ruskin]

Wow! I didn't expect that.
Mine smells citrus-herbal, like citronella.

Seems to me that your citronellol contains a lot of citronellal. Shame.

 

[Emanuel76]

Seems to me that your citronellol contains a lot of citronellal. Shame.

I'll buy one from somewhere else.

On this occasion it was also partialy clarified the Citronellol vs Laevo Citronellol issue from the first post.

So, Capybaron, don't buy Laevo Citronellol from DirectPCW. Things will not change much. That Laevo Citronellol is also in the Citronella direction, just like the Citronellol you already have.