Help with performance and synergy of formula

Danjiel2x

New member
Jan 24, 2023
Hello Everyone, this is my first post however, I’ve studied the forums here quite a bit, as well as formulated up many accords or even full blown perfumes I’ve liked.l, but I’m still relatively new to perfumery.

However, I can’t seem to get a grasp on this Fruity - Cedar fragrance I’m trying to develop, and I was hoping you guys could help me develop this better.

Here is my formula I’ve arrived at after many edits so far:

Ambroxan 5%
Exaltolide Total 2.5%
Edenolide 10%
Cashmeran 2%
Ambrettolide 1%
Calone(10% in DPG) .2%
Helional .55%
Vanillin (10% in etoh) .5%
Hedione 15%
Lillial 3%
Hydroxycitronellal.2%
Patchulol 5%
Veramoss .4%
Cedar Texas 6%
Polysantol .5%
IES 15%
Timbersilk 6%
Lemon Cold Pressed Argentina 6%
Black Currant absolute (50% etoh) 5%
Red Apple Key Accord (PA) 4%
Linalyl Acetate Natural 2%
Citral Dimethyl Acetal 1%
Ethyl Linalool 1%
Ethyl Linalyl Acetal .5%
Pink peppercorn 2.5%
Cypress 2.5%
Coniferan 2.5%

This is the most recent variant, day 1 after blending, and it smells fruity, slightly sharp in the opening, then kind of goes to shit. Lol. Accords get thrown around it seems, becomes muted. I’ve moved through quite a few variants, and I’ll have to revisit some of them after sitting fir a while now. The skeleton I had for this formula was as follows:

Ambroxan 5%
Edenolide 10%
Cashmeran 2%
Ambrettolide 1%
Calone (10% in DPG) .2%
Helional .55%
Vanillin .5%
Hedione 15%
Lillial 3%
Hydroxycitronellal .2%
Patchulol 5%
Veramoss .4%
Cedar texas 3%
Polysantol .5%
IES 15%
Lemon Cold Pressed (Argentina) 6%
Black Currant 5%
Apple 4%
Linalyl Acetate 2%
Citral Dimethyl Acetal 1%
Ethyl Linalool 1%
Ethyl linalyl Acetate .5%

After typing that, it doesnt really seem like a skeleton i guess lol. Anyways, and help and feedback is happily welcome 🙂
 

Danjiel2x

New member
Jan 24, 2023
My Goal is to essentially have a fruity opening for maybe 45min to 90min if possible, with cedarwood coming through the mid and playing with the edenolide, it was a smell i loved on strip, but not on skin
 

Casper_grassy

Basenotes Dependent
May 5, 2020
Why not swap the quantities of your cedar with IES?

What’s “apple”?

There’s a lot of stuff overpowering what you want.
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
If it smells lively on the smelling strip, but goes quickly dead on skin, that is IME a sign that you have high-boiling-point materials that are also of high impact that are crushing the composition. It smells good on the strip bcs the paper fibers hold so tightly to these materials that they aren't entering your nose in too high concentration, but on skin they evaporate much more quickly & thus are entering your nose at higher concentration sufficient to F everything up. Candidates in your formula to test for this effect include ambrox, cashmeran, calone, hedione, veramoss, polysantol, blackcurrant (5% seems very very high), timbersilk (just use IES). And no idea WTF is "apple key accord")...
 

Casper_grassy

Basenotes Dependent
May 5, 2020
If it smells lively on the smelling strip, but goes quickly dead on skin, that is IME a sign that you have high-boiling-point materials that are also of high impact that are crushing the composition. It smells good on the strip bcs the paper fibers hold so tightly to these materials that they aren't entering your nose in too high concentration, but on skin they evaporate much more quickly & thus are entering your nose at higher concentration sufficient to F everything up. Candidates in your formula to test for this effect include ambrox, cashmeran, calone, hedione, veramoss, polysantol, blackcurrant (5% seems very very high), timbersilk (just use IES). And no idea WTF is "apple key accord")...
 

Danjiel2x

New member
Jan 24, 2023
Why not swap the quantities of your cedar with IES?

What’s “apple”?

There’s a lot of stuff overpowering what you want.
That sounds like a good idea, I’ll try that.

My apologies I was referring to the apple key accord from PA. I didnt feel like making my own accord.
 

Danjiel2x

New member
Jan 24, 2023
If it smells lively on the smelling strip, but goes quickly dead on skin, that is IME a sign that you have high-boiling-point materials that are also of high impact that are crushing the composition. It smells good on the strip bcs the paper fibers hold so tightly to these materials that they aren't entering your nose in too high concentration, but on skin they evaporate much more quickly & thus are entering your nose at higher concentration sufficient to F everything up. Candidates in your formula to test for this effect include ambrox, cashmeran, calone, hedione, veramoss, polysantol, blackcurrant (5% seems very very high), timbersilk (just use IES). And no idea WTF is "apple key accord")...
This makes a lot of sense,
I exhausted my typing skills for a second and neglected to mentions that black currant is diluted in Etoh at 50%, do you still think that is high? The lemon, apple, and black currant (50%) formed a nice accord IMO.

I also reduced the materials down to:
Edenolide
Ambroxan
Cashmeran
Hedione
IES
Cedar Texas
Polysantol
Lemon
Black Currant (50%)
Apple key accord (PA)

And you’re 100% right, too many high impact materials, I’m going to remove and switch around quite a bit of things and come back with revised formulas. I was hoping you and casper would reply, so thank you for your help so far 🙏🏽
 

pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
Your topnotes are too high, as well.
Black currant absolute is often used at 1% dilution, if all else is pure.
 

Casper_grassy

Basenotes Dependent
May 5, 2020
You shouldn’t have reduced all of those at once, it could only be one or two things causing most of the issues.

Everything you chose for this can work perfectly fine together (everything in general can) you just have to get the ratios right.

Simply if you’d like, since you want apple and cedar why not just start with that and maybe ethyl linalool and make sure you take into account what’s included in the apple accord.

Eyeballing where your %’s are at, you aren’t as familiar with how they work as you should be. Take your time and assemble it in stages.
 

Danjiel2x

New member
Jan 24, 2023
This makes a lot of sense,
I exhausted my typing skills for a second and neglected to mentions that black currant is diluted in Etoh at 50%, do you still think that is high? The lemon, apple, and black currant (50%) formed a nice accord IMO.

I also reduced the materials down to:
Edenolide
Ambroxan
Cashmeran
Hedione
IES
Cedar Texas
Polysantol
Lemon
Black Currant (50%)
Apple key accord (PA)

And you’re 100% right, too many high impact materials, I’m going to remove and switch around quite a bit of things and come back with revised formulas. I was hoping you and casper would reply, so thank you for your help so far 🙏🏽
Your topnotes are too high, as well.
Black currant absolute is often used at 1% dilution, if all else is pure.
Thank you Mr. Paul, Understood, I will scale them back accordingly to keep the accord working and report back
 

Danjiel2x

New member
Jan 24, 2023
You shouldn’t have reduced all of those at once, it could only be one or two things causing most of the issues.

Everything you chose for this can work perfectly fine together (everything in general can) you just have to get the ratios right.

Simply if you’d like, since you want apple and cedar why not just start with that and maybe ethyl linalool and make sure you take into account what’s included in the apple accord.

Eyeballing where your %’s are at, you aren’t as familiar with how they work as you should be. Take your time and assemble it in stages.
I’m going to take this advice to heart, and blend up some tests with that accord alone and report back
 

Danjiel2x

New member
Jan 24, 2023
What size trial are you making?
For the skeletons I make 10G blends, and I add material to them according to % I usually end up with 10 different 1G trials for one skeleton batch, because of the low doesage of some of the extremely tenacious materials ( I learned this when I came In contact with Birch Tar Rectified, the hard way). When I do trials of smaller accords that I can dose in higher percentages, such as the apple, ethyl linalool, cedar accord I’ll be blending up tonight, I usually use under .500G. Do you have a more efficient way?
 

rococo

Basenotes Member
Jan 1, 2010
I don't have enough confidence with fruit-forward fragrances to recommend specifics. But I'll ask, what 8 ingredients would you take to a desert island if the only way to find your way home was to make a pretty good "fruity-cedar" fragrance?

Mine (from your list) would be:
  • Black currant bud
  • Cedar Texas
  • Ethyl linalool
  • Ambrettolide
  • Fructone
  • Ethyl 2-methyl butyrate
  • Linalyl acetate
  • Vanillin
(and if I could barter for some bergamot from the locals, I'd switch that out for linalyl acetate)

think of what yours are, be ruthless about your choices, and see if you can make something with the chosen 8 that you think smells good and has most of the characteristics you want.
 

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