Giving space, power and diffusion to floral incense composition

Casper_grassy

Basenotes Dependent
May 5, 2020
For jasmine, it’s jasmine lactone that would be most prominent for the creamy aspect.

For ylang it’s “probably” the anethole with para cresol acetate, I know it’s barnyardy but it can also come off as soft and powdery which in combination could give you the idea of a creamy note
 

Yuri-G

Basenotes Junkie
Sep 13, 2020
For jasmine, it’s jasmine lactone that would be most prominent for the creamy aspect.

For ylang it’s “probably” the anethole with para cresol acetate, I know it’s barnyardy but it can also come off as soft and powdery which in combination could give you the idea of a creamy note
Yay, more materials I don't own! :LOL::rolleyes:

I finally got benzyl acetate. Weird how on its own it smells like nail polish remover or synthetic pears, then you add benzyl alcohol to it (which I usually can't even smell) and it instantly changes to something that's starting to smell a bit real.

I don't think I have every material for a jasmine accord. Do you think it's possible to make a half decent jasmine with these materials, or am I missing something really essential still?

Benzyl acetate
Benzyl alcohol
Linalool
Linalyl acetate
PEA
Hydroxycitronellal
Benzyl salicylate
Alpha amyl cinnamaldehyde
Indole
Eugenol
 

Casper_grassy

Basenotes Dependent
May 5, 2020
Yay, more materials I don't own! :LOL::rolleyes:

I finally got benzyl acetate. Weird how on its own it smells like nail polish remover or synthetic pears, then you add benzyl alcohol to it (which I usually can't even smell) and it instantly changes to something that's starting to smell a bit real.

I don't think I have every material for a jasmine accord. Do you think it's possible to make a half decent jasmine with these materials, or am I missing something really essential still?

Benzyl acetate
Benzyl alcohol
Linalool
Linalyl acetate
PEA
Hydroxycitronellal
Benzyl salicylate
Alpha amyl cinnamaldehyde
Indole
Eugenol
You can make a convincing jasmine with that. If you have ylang you can add that too cause it’ll cover a lot of the materials you’re missing.
I also don’t think it’s super necessary to add jasmine lactone, it is nice but you can get away with using other lactones if you have or some methyl laitone. Have no fear, there’s always a way around something
 

Yuri-G

Basenotes Junkie
Sep 13, 2020
You can make a convincing jasmine with that. If you have ylang you can add that too cause it’ll cover a lot of the materials you’re missing.
I also don’t think it’s super necessary to add jasmine lactone, it is nice but you can get away with using other lactones if you have or some methyl laitone. Have no fear, there’s always a way around something
Thanks. What I have so far smells pretty good. But I'm no jasmine conosseur.

Being braver with the indole helped fatten it up.

I have methyl laitone actually.

I'll no doubt stick in some ylang at some point once I've got to grips with the synthetics.
 

Casper_grassy

Basenotes Dependent
May 5, 2020
Thanks. What I have so far smells pretty good. But I'm no jasmine conosseur.

Being braver with the indole helped fatten it up.

I have methyl laitone actually.

I'll no doubt stick in some ylang at some point once I've got to grips with the synthetics.
Try this

Benzyl acetate 270
Linalool 190
Benzyl alcohol 180
Benzyl Salicylate 110 (might have to lower this)
AAC 88
Indole 70
PEA 40
Hydroxyc 30
M Laitone 10
Eugenol 2


I’m winging it off the top but let me know how it goes
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
Weird how on its own it smells like nail polish remover or synthetic pears, then you add benzyl alcohol to it (which I usually can't even smell) and it instantly changes to something that's starting to smell a bit real.
It's not weird at all. It's literally the definition of perfumery.
 

Yuri-G

Basenotes Junkie
Sep 13, 2020
Try this

Benzyl acetate 270
Linalool 190
Benzyl alcohol 180
Benzyl Salicylate 110 (might have to lower this)
AAC 88
Indole 70
PEA 40
Hydroxyc 30
M Laitone 10
Eugenol 2


I’m winging it off the top but let me know how it goes
JThanks! That's remarkably similar to my first attempt, except I had a lot more hydroxycitronellal and way less indole. I thought I was being brave at .35%! But i did notice that the drydown was a little thin.

Do you think a touch of civet replacer (I have the firmenich one) would help add some realism?
 

Casper_grassy

Basenotes Dependent
May 5, 2020
JThanks! That's remarkably similar to my first attempt, except I had a lot more hydroxycitronellal and way less indole. I thought I was being brave at .35%! But i did notice that the drydown was a little thin.

Do you think a touch of civet replacer (I have the firmenich one) would help add some realism?
Idk what that smells like so I can’t say, though civet and jasmine can absolutely go together, i’ve never tried in an accord.
Though with floral bases and accords i’ve made just for learning purposes I would sub indole for skatole and they would be just as good, some even better.
There is only one way to find out and you know what thst is lol

Also I just want to add though eugenol is present, to my nose and gc’s most absolutes of jasmine have more cinnamic alcohol. If you don’t own it that’s fine but it’s way more useful than just for cinnamon. It can be used for just about every fragrance type. It smells great and blends well
 

Yuri-G

Basenotes Junkie
Sep 13, 2020
Idk what that smells like so I can’t say, though civet and jasmine can absolutely go together, i’ve never tried in an accord.
Though with floral bases and accords i’ve made just for learning purposes I would sub indole for skatole and they would be just as good, some even better.
There is only one way to find out and you know what thst is lol

Also I just want to add though eugenol is present, to my nose and gc’s most absolutes of jasmine have more cinnamic alcohol. If you don’t own it that’s fine but it’s way more useful than just for cinnamon. It can be used for just about every fragrance type. It smells great and blends well
I do have cinnamic alcohol actually, but I just can't smell it. I should probably assess it some other way, like the benzyl acetate test.
 

Casper_grassy

Basenotes Dependent
May 5, 2020
Like where I mentioned before not being able to smell benzyl alcohol, but I could notice its effect on benzyl acetate. I wonder if this would work for cinnamic alcohol.
Really? It’s pretty noticeable even undiluted, or do you mean you can’t smell it in natural jasmine?
 

Yuri-G

Basenotes Junkie
Sep 13, 2020
Anything is possible young fella.

Try to blend it with something like hydroxycitronellal and compare it to hydroxy without it
I did trials with both hydroxycitronellal and benzyl acetate. In both I just pick up a faint smoky scent after adding the cinnamic alcohol.

Edit - alongside benzyl acetate and geraniol I perceive it more strongly and sense more what it is doing, especially after the BAD dies down. Still smoky but maybe slightly phenolic too.
 

Casper_grassy

Basenotes Dependent
May 5, 2020
I did trials with both hydroxycitronellal and benzyl acetate. In both I just pick up a faint smoky scent after adding the cinnamic alcohol.

Edit - alongside benzyl acetate and geraniol I perceive it more strongly and sense more what it is doing, especially after the BAD dies down. Still smoky but maybe slightly phenolic too.
That’s good man, it’s a start.

You really have to think about what we’re doing as a whole, specifically with isolates such as cinnamic alcohol. You’ve smelled cinnamon(because cinnamic alc is a constituent) before somewhere maybe on oatmeal, some dessert whatever, now you’re challenging your nose to pick up a small part of it.
Most of these molecules are foreign to us(in isolation) and now your brain is trying to make sense of it. It’s perfectly ok, it just requires some time and effort. If people can smell different roses and determine their origins you can learn this one (and many others) molecule Too.
You should make small blends everyday and have things with and without it and I promise with time you will learn it. As PK posted, all we have, and especially need, is time.

But, don’t try cinnamic alcohol alongside eugenol or spice like things, try polar opposites if you can to really determine what it is and what it’s doing. Put it with something like linalool or linalyl acetate maybe PEA, something a bit simpler to observe the changes.

Our noses are an R word I won’t say and it’s because they are historically not used for this anymore, so we have to almost re-teach our own capabilities. You got this man, try everyday and you will get there, and you will get there with any molecule you ever come across.
 

Yuri-G

Basenotes Junkie
Sep 13, 2020
That’s good man, it’s a start.

You really have to think about what we’re doing as a whole, specifically with isolates such as cinnamic alcohol. You’ve smelled cinnamon(because cinnamic alc is a constituent) before somewhere maybe on oatmeal, some dessert whatever, now you’re challenging your nose to pick up a small part of it.
Most of these molecules are foreign to us(in isolation) and now your brain is trying to make sense of it. It’s perfectly ok, it just requires some time and effort. If people can smell different roses and determine their origins you can learn this one (and many others) molecule Too.
You should make small blends everyday and have things with and without it and I promise with time you will learn it. As PK posted, all we have, and especially need, is time.

But, don’t try cinnamic alcohol alongside eugenol or spice like things, try polar opposites if you can to really determine what it is and what it’s doing. Put it with something like linalool or linalyl acetate maybe PEA, something a bit simpler to observe the changes.

Our noses are an R word I won’t say and it’s because they are historically not used for this anymore, so we have to almost re-teach our own capabilities. You got this man, try everyday and you will get there, and you will get there with any molecule you ever come across.
Yes, good point. I will persist and will try your version of the accord this weekend, but with some cinnamic alcohol included too.
 

Reza

Super Member
Dec 22, 2011
First, is that musks can form very powerful vivid accords in unexpected combinations with other materials. The only way to ever know about any of it is simply to try as many combinations as possible. And some of these accords require musk plus two other materials to even appear. So the only way to discover these accords is by doing as many careful trials as possible. Thinking about "notes" & looking at the odor descriptors in the organoleptic properties section on Good Scents to decide what to "add" is pretty much worthless for this.
In your search for the right combination of ingredient that triggers a categorical perception, did you by any chance ever use a binary search method? I always thought Jean Carles' method of exhaustive search seemed wasteful and could be improved. But I have to admit I have never tried it myself. The prospect of logarithmic waste might entice me to to start.
 

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