Fact checking / Perfume Trade Secret

LaFou

Super Member
Sep 18, 2022
Hi, so I was chatting with One Mr. X , who works with a high end perfume house, and he shared that one technique being used is, after they make the final formula and prepare it, they put it in a special mix machine, and they withdraw the oxygen from it, and set it on constant fast mixing rotation non stop for a long period of time, to Ensure on all ingredients not only mixed but bind as well, plus it sets the scent not change in the future!

is that true? And if so, dang, how am I suppose to do so? And is this machine buyable?

another technique and he gave an example for Amouage, that supposedly they age their mix for 6 month periods and more!
i mean that is double, but is it really necessary the 6 month period?

freaking every day you hear something harder and harder! Im already banging my head from all the reading for the scientific books! Now its supper mixing machines 🤦‍♂️
lets see what else!

I feel it might be true, and it might be an overkill, I say this, ever since I started micro dosing and working in dilution, the scent has greaaaaaaaaaaaatly improved, and started to smell like perfume you buy from shops!

although, I stoped creating anything since 2 days, I want to finish reading the books and then try! perhaps I’ll learn something which will help me better! not perhaps but for sure!

🌹 to everyone
 

ourmess

Basenotes Junkie
Apr 25, 2018
is that true? And if so, dang, how am I suppose to do so? And is this machine buyable?
I have no clue if it's true but as a hobbyist you're simply not supposed to do things like that. I'm sure you could buy a machine like that, and I'm also sure that it would be several thousand dollars (and probably intended to do huge batches at a time).
another technique and he gave an example for Amouage, that supposedly they age their mix for 6 month periods and more!
i mean that is double, but is it really necessary the 6 month period?
Both maturation (aging the fragrance concentrate) and maceration (aging the diluted final product) are common even at hobbyist scale, yes. Is it worth it? You need to decide that for yourself, and it may be a different answer for each scent too.
 

Solua Botanica

Basenotes Member
Oct 11, 2022
I'm sure the fancy perfume houses all have their 'secrets' on how they mix and age perfume.
I simply mix in beakers and flasks with a good swirl from the wrist. For some thicker materials, I use a magnetic stirrer. (automated swirl)
I don't like shaking back and forth in a bottle because I feel like all the littles bubbles of oxygen are detrimental to the bonding of the aromamolecules.
There is a tiny smell difference between 'shaken' and 'swirled' of the same formula. That is, just after you've mixed it.
When you realize what one month of aging does, you can smell the benefits of maturing. Some oils or complex formulas will need 6 months to 'settle' and 'become' their true selves.
No need for fancy equipment, the real needs are practice and patience...
 

ScentAle

Basenotes Junkie
Oct 26, 2021
Big mixing machine I don't know, but I think it is a normal method for very large productions. Anyway like other said, the real secret is to study always more and to make errors with no stop, more learn and more have to learn. It's incredible how much is possible to improve technique, learning well the materials with patience, but no tricks, just constant trials.

I find maceration important, but if a blend is not good, maceration will not do nothing magic, the blend will remain bad. Instead when the blend is well done, any times a long maceration can really improve it, also exalting some beautiful part of smell, that before was more linear, and viceversa can make smoother some others. In some blends I didn't notice too big differences, but in others what a big difference!
 

hemmett

Super Member
Nov 28, 2017
Don’t let that scare you man. Be in it for why you started in the first place: passion. Everything comes w time. And you will most likely find out you will never need a fancy machine like that.

As for maceration, the more naturals, the longer it needs for the blend to stop developing.. But what Scentale says, a bad blend won’t turn into a good blend just by macerating it longer.

Enjoy the process.
 

RomanB

Basenotes Member
Oct 22, 2022
It isn't something special, just a large chemical reactor pumped with nitrogen instead of air to prevent perfume from oxidising. Such reactors could be very large, I know of a factory with 14 ton reactors. Every perfume has a specified time to react, usually from 3 days to 21 days, sometimes up to 3 months and possibly more. However, such storage is expensive, so no manufacturer wants to wait more than necessary.
 

RomanB

Basenotes Member
Oct 22, 2022
Don’t let that scare you man. Be in it for why you started in the first place: passion. Everything comes w time. And you will most likely find out you will never need a fancy machine like that.

As for maceration, the more naturals, the longer it needs for the blend to stop developing.. But what Scentale says, a bad blend won’t turn into a good blend just by macerating it longer.

Enjoy the process.
Is pure maceration still used in the industry? Tinctures are processed in heated reactors under pressure and ultrasonic treatment, it takes a few hours to make any tincture, and keeping it more is undesirable.
 

LaFou

Super Member
Sep 18, 2022
I have no clue if it's true but as a hobbyist you're simply not supposed to do things like that. I'm sure you could buy a machine like that, and I'm also sure that it would be several thousand dollars (and probably intended to do huge batches at a time).
yea I agree, I don’t want to buy anything , I don’t have any more space 🤣
Both maturation (aging the fragrance concentrate) and maceration (aging the diluted final product) are common even at hobbyist scale, yes. Is it worth it? You need to decide that for yourself, and it may be a different answer for each scent too.
Yes, again you are right! I feel that maturation is more important but both can be based on preference!

I’ll be honest with you, sooner or later I will launch a perfume line through an established fragrance house, and I will take this as an opportunity to see how it’s being produced from A to Z, at the same time I will continue perfume learning as a hobby until the finally and ultimately will be able to make my own formula for commercial production! I see this way ahead maybe 5 years from now at least, perhaps sooner or later but at least I have a target, and at the same time I can commission the House to create something which I will try to micromanage (and drive everyone crazy 😜🤣 no I kid) but I mean I will be involved in a way that will make me learn! pfff then how ever They want to do it! Mixing or magnets or xyr ultra supper dooper ray, Ill have to wait and see! For now as you said I don’t care much and I’ll contNiue doing what I’m doing now! I’m happy with it, really 👌
 

LaFou

Super Member
Sep 18, 2022
Careful who you talk to, it's an art of secrets and some will try to scare you away with some 'secret' knowledge or method that is not possible for a hobbyist.
You know, you are right! it happens with any business you see! So for sure why not perfumery!
thank you 🙏 from now on either way I learned this I won’t be telling anyone I’m learning perfumery!

i only shared with 2 commercial people! I’ll tell them now I stoped and it’s hard and I don’t have the time for it 😈 but we will know! 😈😈😈😈
 

LaFou

Super Member
Sep 18, 2022
I'm sure the fancy perfume houses all have their 'secrets' on how they mix and age perfume.
I simply mix in beakers and flasks with a good swirl from the wrist. For some thicker materials, I use a magnetic stirrer. (automated swirl)
I don't like shaking back and forth in a bottle because I feel like all the littles bubbles of oxygen are detrimental to the bonding of the aromamolecules.
There is a tiny smell difference between 'shaken' and 'swirled' of the same formula. That is, just after you've mixed it.
When you realize what one month of aging does, you can smell the benefits of maturing. Some oils or complex formulas will need 6 months to 'settle' and 'become' their true selves.
No need for fancy equipment, the real needs are practice and patience...
I like there is a difference between shaken and swirled, perhaps 007 was right with his martini 😅

and yes, you are right, and I take that you already have the needed experience since you already made 6 month old formulas!

thanks for the input 💪🌹
 

LaFou

Super Member
Sep 18, 2022
Big mixing machine I don't know, but I think it is a normal method for very large productions. Anyway like other said, the real secret is to study always more and to make errors with no stop, more learn and more have to learn. It's incredible how much is possible to improve technique, learning well the materials with patience, but no tricks, just constant trials.

I find maceration important, but if a blend is not good, maceration will not do nothing magic, the blend will remain bad. Instead when the blend is well done, any times a long maceration can really improve it, also exalting some beautiful part of smell, that before was more linear, and viceversa can make smoother some others. In some blends I didn't notice too big differences, but in others what a big difference!
Yes I agree 100% you can have an initial idea from moment you finish the formula, and the maturation will help to develop It and emphasize on the beautiful smell in a more synergy! Sometimes, additional materials will kick in after maturation to help either boost, lift and cross bridge the scents!

rarely where I found (at least with me) that if your formula and mix is not good you wait to mature and becomes good!

Your on the dime dear 👌👌
 

LaFou

Super Member
Sep 18, 2022
Humans have been making perfume far longer WITHOUT that “secret” than WITH.
Make good fragrances and keep it movin’!
That’s another way to 💪 the big machines 🤣

but you are absolutely right! Plus many here on BN are commercially successful perfumers, and making as well specialTy bases like the big Houses, as example with PK

🎩
 

LaFou

Super Member
Sep 18, 2022
Don’t let that scare you man. Be in it for why you started in the first place: passion. Everything comes w time. And you will most likely find out you will never need a fancy machine like that.

As for maceration, the more naturals, the longer it needs for the blend to stop developing.. But what Scentale says, a bad blend won’t turn into a good blend just by macerating it longer.

Enjoy the process.
Wonderful my friend!
naaa that doesn’t scare me, I fear only god, my mother (she’s packs a good slipper throw) and some Husbands and boyfriends 🤣

you are right! You said the key word and I’m dead serious not just saying that! passion
Passion is why I’m doing this and will keep doing it! It’s why I’m reading more than I did in college 😅 and it’s why you need to humble yourself by not trying to do it before you learn the fundamentals at least, and exert patience in learning and experimenting to get better!

the way I see it, I can try to be a wise ass who thinks he can master it based on his pure sense of I know (like when your lost and never admit your lost to look at the map / before Google 😅) and then fail at it and get frustrated and leave it and time will pass

or try when the time is passing either way to learn the slow and sort of boring way (only now) and then you’ll reach the same time between the 2 scenarios, but only one will be good and allow you then to be creative and enjoy it!

right! Sure right 😅🤷‍♂️
 

LaFou

Super Member
Sep 18, 2022
It isn't something special, just a large chemical reactor pumped with nitrogen instead of air to prevent perfume from oxidising. Such reactors could be very large, I know of a factory with 14 ton reactors. Every perfume has a specified time to react, usually from 3 days to 21 days, sometimes up to 3 months and possibly more. However, such storage is expensive, so no manufacturer wants to wait more than necessary.
We will reach this phase soon 💪💪 and at that time I’ll borrow the slipper and stand with the manufacture owner to wait more than he has to! 😈🤣

no i kid, but see! That’s a good info to know, and learned that owners will try to finish faster so perhaps if gods wills it for me to launch one day my perfume, I’ll remember this and put it in the contract with the owner!

thank for the information 🌹🎩
 

LaFou

Super Member
Sep 18, 2022
Is pure maceration still used in the industry? Tinctures are processed in heated reactors under pressure and ultrasonic treatment, it takes a few hours to make any tincture, and keeping it more is undesirable.
Niiice! I have my good friend with the loudest and most contagious laugh! We will use him for the ultra sonic then 🤣🤣🤣
 

RomanB

Basenotes Member
Oct 22, 2022
Niiice! I have my good friend with the loudest and most contagious laugh! We will use him for the ultra sonic then 🤣🤣🤣
Find a way to deal with static electricity, it was the main obstacle before this technology was properly implemented. And you can try it yourself: there are ultrasonic cleaning baths, usually they are used by jewellers. If you will fill it with water and put your tincture in a flask inside the water, you'll see how effectively it is.

Also works with whiskey: put some food grade ethanol and some burned oak chips to the flask. 10 minutes of ultrasonic treatment, then add some water and voila, whiskey is ready.
 

mazen

New member
Apr 13, 2022
Hello Brother,

You don't need fancy machines to mix or macerate your creations. The oxidization process will be there as long as there is air or space in your bottle. It will not slow down whether you shake, or stir your final formula. There are other important factors to consider while and after mixing the formula. The first and most important is the temperate, the less temperature, the less oxidation. The second thing is the air space in your bottle, the more air the more oxygen. So, if you want to reduce that, have your final perfume poured in an a similar-size beaker, cover the breaker with nylon and mix it a magnetic stirrer while covered.

One final thing to add

Don't let someone opinion stops you from doing the thing you love doing. Whatever you heard or read are just finding of someone's else trails. Have your own trails and errors, have your own findings.
 

RomanB

Basenotes Member
Oct 22, 2022
Hello Brother,

You don't need fancy machines to mix or macerate your creations. The oxidization process will be there as long as there is air or space in your bottle. It will not slow down whether you shake, or stir your final formula. There are other important factors to consider while and after mixing the formula. The first and most important is the temperate, the less temperature, the less oxidation. The second thing is the air space in your bottle, the more air the more oxygen. So, if you want to reduce that, have your final perfume poured in an a similar-size beaker, cover the breaker with nylon and mix it a magnetic stirrer while covered.

One final thing to add

Don't let someone opinion stops you from doing the thing you love doing. Whatever you heard or read are just finding of someone's else trails. Have your own trails and errors, have your own findings.
You can buy a small refillable high pressure nitrogen tank with a gas reducer. They are sold for welders and can be as little as two gallons in size. Nitrogen in bottles or maceration tanks is fully inert and prevents oxidation.
 

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