English Leather: The Downmarket Cousin to Knize Ten

Varanis Ridari

The Scented Devil
Basenotes Plus
Oct 17, 2012
English Leather doesn't get a ton of talk on the vintage forum (or any forum here on Basenotes), because even though it's older than the hills, it was formerly ubiquitous and may be seen by many who remember it as irredeemably common or cheap. However, English Leather has a pretty lively and somewhat byzantine history, not to mention is qualitatively impressive as a leather chypre for the price, making it somewhat of an overlooked gem in a land dominated by love for leathers like Bandit, Aramis, Bel Ami, Moschino, etc.

The tale of English Leather starts when Javier Serra perfumed the composition that would become known as English Leather for Austrian perfume and toiletries house called MEM in 1930. Having been around since 1883, MEM was always an apothecary/chemist (later drugstore) kind of brand, and much like The Crown Perfumery, Avon, Coty, and others of that ilk, made products people would see as staples of grooming.

"Russisch Leder" (Russian Leather) was something of a Knize Ten knockoff, with isobutyl quinoline, sharp citrus, mosses, and a dry semi-powdery finish, as perfumer Javier Serra had a more important job as creative director for Myrugia at the time. Much like the later Ramon Monegal (who held the same position with Myrugia from 1979-2007), Serra left to form his own house in 1932, and that house would become Dana Parfums (originally of Barcelona Spain, later Paris France).

Javier Serra would tap perfumer Jean Carles for early Dana releases like Tabu, 20 Carats, Emir, Canoe, and the like rather than compose himself, meanwhile MEM would relocate to the United States to avoid Nazi persecution and eventually release his formula for "Russisch Leer" under a name that had less Cold-War implications in 1949: English Leather. Few people in the US knew of Knize Ten let alone could buy it, so despite the very derivative nature of the composition found in English Leather, there were no cries of "it's a clone!" like you'd have in today's market.

Not that these scents are at all identical, but Javier Serra's work in English Leather deviates little from the work of Vincent Roubert and Francois Coty other than to dial back the raw tannery leather note in favor of a bit more of an oakmoss/cedar/vetiver structure in the base and a tad more powdery iris in the heart. The nose-burning aldehydes and bergamot blast is the biggest difference overall, as this is in no way as refined as Knize Ten, but once it settles, you get that blooming tannery leather and clean chypre dry down for hours.

It's easy to see why something this performance-heavy, dry, masculine, and clean became a go-to for men into the 70's, where English Leather rose to challenge the almighty Old Spice in the drugstore masculine fragrance market with just as many flankers in its heyday. Old Spice vs English Leather was the original watercooler cologne debate years before Polo vs Drakkar, Bleu de Chanel vs Sauvage, so on and so forth. Granted, the stuff was a victim of its own success by the 80's, and much like Old Spice or even Brut, was viewed with derision in favor of designers.

Funny that now those same designers are viewed with derision in favor of niche fragrances three times the cost, but that's besides the point. I put this in the vintage forum because while designers "race to the bottom", English Leather in its current form has been there for years, with both Dana and MEM having bankrupted by the 80's and being bought by New Renaissance, a company looking to profit from nostalgia that itself over-acquired defunct brands until itself went bankrupt and was bought by whoever owns it all now.


"New Dana Inc" was the last decent reformulation, but you want the original MEM co. stuff if you want to smell this in its prime. Since 2011, the scent has been completely reorchestrated without the oakmoss, aldehydes, or isobutyl quinoline note. Modern English Leather is disturbingly soapy, ambery, and musky, like a bad Dollar Store imposter of itself. I'm not usually the "get vintage or get out" kind of guy, but it really does apply here. Tell me your thoughts on English Leather. If you've tried it, passed it up, or if it's something you love like I do!

Every dog gets its day and it's time English Leather got some love!


IMG_-80gytm.jpg

I preferred the screenprint bottle and unfinished woodcap of the mid 90's/early 00's New Renaissance/New Dana bottles, as older MEM bottles used a sticker with gothic letters and a darker stained cap that looks a bit too baroque for me and can peel off with age. However, this has been used up and emptied once, being since refilled with vintage MEM 1oz travel minis, which is why the juice looks so dark compared to most bottles from this era. My bottle isn't period-correct for its contents, but frankly, I don't give a damn! Thanks for reading!
 
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cacio

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Nov 5, 2010
Thanks for the description. Sadly, I have only smelled the most recent English Leather, which is exactly as you say, a cheap, annoying musk ( I bought a mini in a pack that included Canoe and similar, and all were just as cheap and ugly). Now I know what to look for.

cacio
 

hednic

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2007
I remember trying on several occasions the version that existed in the early 60s. My brother-in-law used to wear it and I do remember it being popular even back then before it "caught fire" and exploded later on.
 

Dimitrios

Well-known member
May 7, 2007
I been quietly championing this gem for many years here .
Vintage English Leather by the MEM Co is a unicorn no more ......

I am interested to hear from afficionados on how it compares to Knize 10 ?
I reckon its just as good ...
 

Slayerized

Well-known member
Jul 17, 2011
Thanks for the description. Sadly, I have only smelled the most recent English Leather, which is exactly as you say, a cheap, annoying musk ( I bought a mini in a pack that included Canoe and similar, and all were just as cheap and ugly). Now I know what to look for.

cacio

+1
Blind bought this because of pretty good reviews in 2010 but have to agree with this assessment as it really did not smell any good unfortunately.
Funny enough bought Canoe also that year and same story.....
 

Varanis Ridari

The Scented Devil
Basenotes Plus
Oct 17, 2012
+1
Blind bought this because of pretty good reviews in 2010 but have to agree with this assessment as it really did not smell any good unfortunately.
Funny enough bought Canoe also that year and same story.....

Canoe, English Leather, Tabu, and British Sterling were all partially re-orchestrated to be more cost-effective (also read: crappier) since Dana Classic Fragrances sells mostly in Walmarts and the like based purely on nostalgia. They don't expect people who remember the originals to buy them so they don't need to be accurate in reformulation. In other words, with drugstore stuff like this, you really need deep vintage (or at least pre-2001 before the big buyout). Tabu is the only one from the lot that seemed to come out okay because it's hard to ruin amber (but not impossible).
 
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Ken_Russell

Well-known member
Jan 21, 2006
Have not managed to test this one yet, but being a long term fan, user and owner not just of Knize Ten, as well as other vintage scents along these lines-truly eager to sample English Leather (in any version) at least once
 

drseid

Sound Scents
Basenotes Plus
Jun 1, 2003
I haven’t worn it in 35 years and even then it was only a few times, but back then it was indeed “dirt cheap” and sold in supermarkets. I thought it smelled pretty good at the time but don’t remember ever purchasing a bottle.

At that time I did not even know Knize Ten even existed so never made the comparison. The English Leather of my distant memory and youth didn’t smell like my much more recent Knize Ten experience, but as it has been such a relatively long time since I wore it I certainly wouldn’t trust any comparison by me. It may be time to revisit vintage English Leather, if only for nostalgia.
 

Varanis Ridari

The Scented Devil
Basenotes Plus
Oct 17, 2012
I haven’t worn it in 35 years and even then it was only a few times, but back then it was indeed “dirt cheap” and sold in supermarkets. I thought it smelled pretty good at the time but don’t remember ever purchasing a bottle.

At that time I did not even know Knize Ten even existed so never made the comparison. The English Leather of my distant memory and youth didn’t smell like my much more recent Knize Ten experience, but as it has been such a relatively long time since I wore it I certainly wouldn’t trust any comparison by me. It may be time to revisit vintage English Leather, if only for nostalgia.

They share a structure, with petrol, iris powder, oakmoss, IBQ leather, and woods. The difference is EL is way more raw and in-your-face than K10, because the blending is eschewed for pure potency. K10 is pair of bespoke boots from a cobbler, while EL is a pair of Red Wings. The comparison holds most in the late dry-down, since back then scents were composed to arrive at an accord rather than be linear from opening to close. Hope you enjoy it!
 

aero58

Well-known member
Jan 30, 2019
English Leather doesn't get a ton of talk on the vintage forum (or any forum here on Basenotes)….

….but it is no stranger to the wet shaving community. I've had these two MEM bottles for a few years, and for some reason, that I can't justify, they don't get used as often as they should - I really need to fix that issue! I agree with ZC about the initial application being a "nose-burning aldehydes and bergamot blast..." And I also agree about the dry down, as ZC says, "....but once it settles, you get that blooming tannery leather and clean chypre dry down for hours...." This one is definitely all about the long dry down for me. I dig it!

BTW, any idea what time frame these are from?

Q5FXNYZ.jpg
 

Varanis Ridari

The Scented Devil
Basenotes Plus
Oct 17, 2012
….but it is no stranger to the wet shaving community. I've had these two MEM bottles for a few years, and for some reason, that I can't justify, they don't get used as often as they should - I really need to fix that issue! I agree with ZC about the initial application being a "nose-burning aldehydes and bergamot blast..." And I also agree about the dry down, as ZC says, "....but once it settles, you get that blooming tannery leather and clean chypre dry down for hours...." This one is definitely all about the long dry down for me. I dig it!

BTW, any idea what time frame these are from?

Q5FXNYZ.jpg

I'd think 70's or 80's. The darker label is older of the two. I'd say 70's. Juice is as dark as mine (a 90's bottle with 70's juice.)


thanks mate

Also saw your comment above! Thanks for helping me fight the good fight!
 

woodnotes55

Well-known member
Oct 27, 2016
Maybe it was just that these were common when I was young enough to be shocked by the idea of a raunchy commercial, but a key thing not mentioned in your history is the classic tagline "All my men wear English Leather, or they wear nothing at all"....

A sample...


a0327e22702de73f8d27ca33c8775013.jpg



And a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkTNX6VU71A


I'm sure there are better examples out there for someone willing to spend a little more time looking around. It looks like they used this from sometime in the 60s to sometime in the 80s. That's what you call value for your advertising company purchase!!!
 

woodnotes55

Well-known member
Oct 27, 2016
Back more on topic, have never smelled Knize 10 so no idea there. But I had a bunch of travel sizes of English Leather over the years. Best I can remember it was probably considered "uncool" the first time I got it let alone the later times. I think the last set I found a real cheap deal and bought 4 of them. I have one left that contains less than half an inch so don't wear it that often. Also don't, as I have a hard time wearing it and actually leaving the house now.... although in the old days thought nothing of it. Anyway, here's a picture. I know it's pre-2011 by a lot, and since it says MEM I take it that is the older version??
 

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Varanis Ridari

The Scented Devil
Basenotes Plus
Oct 17, 2012
Maybe it was just that these were common when I was young enough to be shocked by the idea of a raunchy commercial, but a key thing not mentioned in your history is the classic tagline "All my men wear English Leather, or they wear nothing at all"....

A sample...


a0327e22702de73f8d27ca33c8775013.jpg



And a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkTNX6VU71A


I'm sure there are better examples out there for someone willing to spend a little more time looking around. It looks like they used this from sometime in the 60s to sometime in the 80s. That's what you call value for your advertising company purchase!!!

The advertising itself could have a thread of its own, much like with Brut, so I left it out.

Back more on topic, have never smelled Knize 10 so no idea there. But I had a bunch of travel sizes of English Leather over the years. Best I can remember it was probably considered "uncool" the first time I got it let alone the later times. I think the last set I found a real cheap deal and bought 4 of them. I have one left that contains less than half an inch so don't wear it that often. Also don't, as I have a hard time wearing it and actually leaving the house now.... although in the old days thought nothing of it. Anyway, here's a picture. I know it's pre-2011 by a lot, and since it says MEM I take it that is the older version??

MEM ran from 1949 to 1994. 1995 to about 2001 was New Renaissance/New Dana, and 2002 until now has been Dana Classic Fragrances although that doesn't mean stock from these periods didn't linger for years. I remember even so late as 2005 that original MEM stock of English Leather was still sitting (dusty) on Rite Aid and CVS shelves. plastic minis were made until the 90's.
 

saminlondon

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2011
I have absolutely zero recollection of this perfume from my 70s childhood.

Perhaps it wasn't distributed in the UK? Old Spice and Brut, on the other hand, were everywhere.
 

woodnotes55

Well-known member
Oct 27, 2016
MEM ran from 1949 to 1994. 1995 to about 2001 was New Renaissance/New Dana, and 2002 until now has been Dana Classic Fragrances although that doesn't mean stock from these periods didn't linger for years. I remember even so late as 2005 that original MEM stock of English Leather was still sitting (dusty) on Rite Aid and CVS shelves. plastic minis were made until the 90's.

I don't think 2005 but would guess that I bought that last set of minis well after 1994. Interesting something could stick around over 10 years in prior formulation. If that happened more often now there would be less of the reformulation rush/unicorn situations.
Will have to wear it again soon, the last wear this past winter I remember thinking the dry down lasted a very long time and that age didn't seem to have made much of an impact on it.....

Informative thread, thanks!
 

Varanis Ridari

The Scented Devil
Basenotes Plus
Oct 17, 2012
I don't think 2005 but would guess that I bought that last set of minis well after 1994. Interesting something could stick around over 10 years in prior formulation. If that happened more often now there would be less of the reformulation rush/unicorn situations.
Will have to wear it again soon, the last wear this past winter I remember thinking the dry down lasted a very long time and that age didn't seem to have made much of an impact on it.....

Informative thread, thanks!

I remember seeing NOS MEM bottles at a local Rite Aid. Some places just don't sell inventory and don't send stuff back for liquidating (especially if franchised and not a corporate location), so it just sits and sits until the right person comes along.

My SOTD was Knize Ten. Tomorrow, English Leather. I’ll report here.

Cool! Remember, I didn't say they were the same, just up and downmarket cousins.
 

masonjarjar

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2007
My first cologne was English Leather. I had the big 8oz bottle of All-Purpose Lotion, MEM formulation from the early 80's.

For some reason, over the years, I didn't buy another bottle until about 4 years ago, I scored an original MEM cologne and
a Musk aftershave. I also have several bottles (cologne & aftershave) of the most recent formulation, which I have to say isn't bad. (I picked them up during the great "discontinuation scare" of 2018) They're just not as dark and complex as the MEM.

EL.JPG

ModEL_Trim.JPG
 

PStoller

I’m not old, I’m vintage.
Basenotes Plus
Aug 1, 2019
EC2C03C7-FD4D-4239-AA4C-70F8AE7D8CE2.jpg

As ZC says, English Leather is no Knize Ten, though they are discernibly related by fragrance family. K10 is quite a bit more dimensional, and I'm comfortable feeling my bottle was money well spent. That said, vintage MEM EL punches well above its weight in terms of quality/cost. At these prices, you could bathe in it, not that I'd recommend that. It's a darker, earthier leather than Avon Leather, which is almost naïvely simple and linear but still enjoyable and a similar bargain: I might try layering the Avon and EL at some point to see if they enhance each other or cancel out. In any case, EL is a dirty if not raunchy sort of leather: more man cave than biker bar, much less S&M club. Not terribly English, but also clearly not Russian à la Chanel, et al. For a truly English leather, I'd look to those sublime old Dunhills. But if you squint a bit and think more corner pub than gentleman's club, this'll do just fine.

NOTE: Those big wooden caps were affixed with glue to mundane plastic caps. This 2 oz. bottle lost its wood cap somewhere along the way, but its 4 oz. companion bottle still has its commoner's crown.
 

Varanis Ridari

The Scented Devil
Basenotes Plus
Oct 17, 2012
View attachment 127797

As ZC says, English Leather is no Knize Ten, though they are discernibly related by fragrance family. K10 is quite a bit more dimensional, and I'm comfortable feeling my bottle was money well spent. That said, vintage MEM EL punches well above its weight in terms of quality/cost. At these prices, you could bathe in it, not that I'd recommend that. It's a darker, earthier leather than Avon Leather, which is almost naïvely simple and linear but still enjoyable and a similar bargain: I might try layering the Avon and EL at some point to see if they enhance each other or cancel out. In any case, EL is a dirty if not raunchy sort of leather: more man cave than biker bar, much less S&M club. Not terribly English, but also clearly not Russian à la Chanel, et al. For a truly English leather, I'd look to those sublime old Dunhills. But if you squint a bit and think more corner pub than gentleman's club, this'll do just fine.

NOTE: Those big wooden caps were affixed with glue to mundane plastic caps. This 2 oz. bottle lost its wood cap somewhere along the way, but its 4 oz. companion bottle still has its commoner's crown.

Late drydown for me is where K10 and EL get closest. Yeah vintage EL is WD40 degreaser to Fahrenheit's gasoline in my opinion. Both give me massive shade tree mechanic vibes with a rusty Craftsman rollaway tool chest sat beside a worn Plymouth Belvedere getting an oil change.

I still find it funny that the guy who launched Dana Parfums perfumed this for MEM as a Russian Leather scent while still working with Myrugia, then MEM renamed it and took it downmarket to huge success, then eventually long after Serra's death, English Leather would eventually be sold under the Dana label after New Renaissance consolidated all those old houses. Feels very "small world".
 

PStoller

I’m not old, I’m vintage.
Basenotes Plus
Aug 1, 2019
I still find it funny that the guy who launched Dana Parfums perfumed this for MEM as a Russian Leather scent while still working with Myrugia, then MEM renamed it and took it downmarket to huge success, then eventually long after Serra's death, English Leather would eventually be sold under the Dana label after New Renaissance consolidated all those old houses. Feels very "small world".
Because it is.

I wonder if it was much different in its first "Russian" incarnation? I have to say, I'm quite find of Dana Emir, though that's Carles rather than Serra. Much closer to being a peer of the more celebrated Russian leathers of its day.
 

Varanis Ridari

The Scented Devil
Basenotes Plus
Oct 17, 2012
Because it is.

I wonder if it was much different in its first "Russian" incarnation? I have to say, I'm quite find of Dana Emir, though that's Carles rather than Serra. Much closer to being a peer of the more celebrated Russian leathers of its day.

To my knowledge, nothing Serra perfumed besides English Leather was ever recorded. None of his work at Myrugia was documented (or at least documentation didn't survive), and since he was mostly creative director, he's just a name in the books beyond this. Similar situation for Ramon Monegal (also former Myrugia creative director and perfumer). Nothing he did for Myrugia from the 70's until he left in the 2000's was documented (or at least divulged publicly), so he's only "known" for the house he made after leaving (Monegal Parfums). Either Myrugia has shitty bookeeping or they go full-Disney with non-disclosure and ownership, which is still also shitty. Either way, fascinating!!

You'll have to find Austrian bottles of MEM pre-40's before they fled Europe in 1939 (due to Nazi Germany), and they should be call Russisch Leder if the translation proves accurate, composed in 1930 by Serra, sold in 1931 until 19?? by MEM until they fled. Maybe it was named something else? Steven H Mayer was involved (grandson of MEM's founder) from 33 until 1943, then fought WWII and was the president in 47, chairmen in 74 until his death in 1990 coincidentally at the age of 74 (yes I research obituaries if necessary for my perfume knowledge, don't judge me!). Renaissance/New Dana bought MEM in 96.
 

PStoller

I’m not old, I’m vintage.
Basenotes Plus
Aug 1, 2019
Per Grace Hummel:

The company's name, Myrurgia, was created from the Greek words for "essence" and "industry." With the combined efforts of wealthy chemical industrialist Raymon Monegal, his money, marketing skills, and the artistic talents of his son, the sculptor, Esteve Monegal Prat, their partnership helped to build the company into the successful name that we know today. Esteve earned university degrees in Paris and Barcelona. His perfumery training in Grasse, Paris and with Firmenich in Geneva helped to develop the exquisite fragrances, soaps and other products of the company … Denyse Beaulieu over at Grain de Musc explains that "Esteve Monegal himself, who apparently worked with François Coty before 1916, is said to have found the names and the notes: he bought his formulas from the Naef & Compagnie laboratory until 1921, when he hired Lucien Maisonier as the technical manager of his factory. We know that the great Jean Carles, of the Roure Laboratory, who worked a lot with Spanish companies (he authored Tabu and Canoë for Dana), composed some of the fragrances from 1927 onwards."

​At the very least, I need to try some vintage Maja.
 

Varanis Ridari

The Scented Devil
Basenotes Plus
Oct 17, 2012
Per Grace Hummel:

The company's name, Myrurgia, was created from the Greek words for "essence" and "industry." With the combined efforts of wealthy chemical industrialist Raymon Monegal, his money, marketing skills, and the artistic talents of his son, the sculptor, Esteve Monegal Prat, their partnership helped to build the company into the successful name that we know today. Esteve earned university degrees in Paris and Barcelona. His perfumery training in Grasse, Paris and with Firmenich in Geneva helped to develop the exquisite fragrances, soaps and other products of the company … Denyse Beaulieu over at Grain de Musc explains that "Esteve Monegal himself, who apparently worked with François Coty before 1916, is said to have found the names and the notes: he bought his formulas from the Naef & Compagnie laboratory until 1921, when he hired Lucien Maisonier as the technical manager of his factory. We know that the great Jean Carles, of the Roure Laboratory, who worked a lot with Spanish companies (he authored Tabu and Canoë for Dana), composed some of the fragrances from 1927 onwards."

​At the very least, I need to try some vintage Maja.

Sounds like Serra wasn't family, which is why he didn't fit, and Ramon Monegal left because his family sold to Dr. Payot, then Antonio Puig, so he was probably sidelined like Jean-Paul Guerlain was when LVMH bought Guerlain. Monegal is niche while Dana was mass-market, so I don't think in this case that another ex-Myrugia alum will make the same historical impact on the perfume world for sheer lack of volume, unless Monegal pulls a Creed trick and makes a surprise smash hit that punches down into mainstream styles a la Aventus.

None of this directly relates to English Leather of course.
 

woodnotes55

Well-known member
Oct 27, 2016
I remember seeing NOS MEM bottles at a local Rite Aid. Some places just don't sell inventory and don't send stuff back for liquidating (especially if franchised and not a corporate location), so it just sits and sits until the right person comes along.


.


And that would be me, an admitted sucker for a great discount now and then... Four for how much? I'll take it!

Seems a sad fact with the evolution of the internet or just pc-based tools that the amount of "dead" inventory is much smaller than it used to be. Sure, someone gets lucky and Marshalls mislabels a Creed for $15 or whatever, but the odds of finding a treasure extremely cheap are pretty long. Even the clearance type stores are mostly chains these days. Oh well, I still have a few vintage scents from the good old days of scavenging....
 

drseid

Sound Scents
Basenotes Plus
Jun 1, 2003
My MEM bottle arrived yesterday, and I am wearing it today to get an initial feel... Most of the bright bergamot led top notes I vaguely remember from my youth are long gone on the bottle I have now... The aromatic lavender is the sole top note remaining in any strength, with only faint hints of the citrus.

The primary heart notes am smelling right now are cedar, and an almost doughy leather accord not completely dissimilar to one in the current formula of Or Black. There is a hint of deep musk in the base and maybe a tinge of oakmoss (though the latter is definitely not the driver here, more used as a fixative). I am not getting a lot of projection from my cologne and potency is relatively weak.

That is all I get so far an hour and a half into the development... Let's see how things develop.

Edit: Now about 12 hours in, the late dry-down has the doughy aspect to the leather vacate, as it turns more hard, now coupling with piercing, woody vetiver. I am enjoying the late dry-down quite a bit.
 
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masonjarjar

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2007
My MEM bottle arrived yesterday, and I am wearing it today to get an initial feel... Most of the bright bergamot led top notes I vaguely remember from my youth are long gone on the bottle I have now... The aromatic lavender is the sole top note remaining in any strength, with only faint hints of the citrus.

The primary heart notes am smelling right now are cedar, and an almost doughy leather accord not completely dissimilar to one in the current formula of Or Black. There is a hint of deep musk in the base and maybe a tinge of oakmoss (though the latter is definitely not the driver here, more used as a fixative). I am not getting a lot of projection from my cologne and potency is relatively weak.

That is all I get so far an hour and a half into the development... Let's see how things develop.

I'm pretty amazed at how much of the scent survived in my MEM bottle. It's just as I remembered it. Mine was in the wooden box, I wonder if that makes a difference in how much of the top notes burn off? (I would guess very little light touched this bottle before I opened it).
 

drseid

Sound Scents
Basenotes Plus
Jun 1, 2003
I'm pretty amazed at how much of the scent survived in my MEM bottle. It's just as I remembered it. Mine was in the wooden box, I wonder if that makes a difference in how much of the top notes burn off? (I would guess very little light touched this bottle before I opened it).
It might have made a big difference in truth... The one I bought, while apparently full was not boxed at all, and the juice had obviously darkened to a large degree.
 

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