Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

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As some of you may know I've been on a quest of sorts to find out the real nose behind Aventus because I believe that the Creeds are the olfactive equivalent of Milli Vanilli who are just fronting a business and playing the role of perfumers as their niche is selling an image to the wannabe riche as evidenced by how they squirm interviews when they are asked to get technical. But all of that is by the by because what intrigued me about Aventus the first time I inhaled it was how cleverly put together it was and how that kind of scent can only come from a lot of experience, access to top flight aroma chemicals/captives and a lot of time to play around with ideas, letting them evolve and mature before presenting its final form to the world and chain smoking Pierre Bourdon fits the bill perfectly due to a scent I recently inhaled.

The Brun by Jean Charles Brosseau is a little known 2005 release that is credited to Pierre and its pyramid features:

Top notes are bergamot, pineapple, melon, cinnamon and cardamom
Middle notes are orange blossom, lavender, violet, jasmine and lily-of-the-valley
Base notes are caraway, musk, amber, vanilla and tea.

And upon first sniff you're hit with a hybrid of Millesime Imperials structure draped over an undeveloped Aventus drydown with lashings of smokey tea wafting all over the place. The scent itself is fairly interesting but the shapes it presents in my mind are way too similar to what MI bought to the table 10 years prior and what Aventus would highlight 5 years later for it to be a coincidence as one can never separate art from the artist and those with a good eye (or nose in this case!) can always spot the fingerprints even if the provenance is obscured.

Another interesting blip on the journey is 2005s Purple Label by Ralph Lauren which isn't credited to a nose but Firmenich who supply the captives that do the heavy lifting for Aventus. This scent features a very clear resonance to Aventus in that its a pencil sketch outline of what would eventually become Creeds flagship scent and is worth a sniff just to see where I'm coming from.

But two 2005 releases that both have a chunk of the Aventus DNA woven throughout their structure - note not a clone wannabe, GCMS reproduction but obviously the same heritage in an earlier state of development just beggars belief especially when you take other aspects into consideration that point to Bourdon being the Don Dada of Creed like his resume and similarities therein:

Cool Water -- Green Irish Tweed
Individuel -- Original Santal
French Lover -- Spice & Wood
The Brun -- Millesime Imperial

As you can see Kaptain Kouros isn't new to the game and has dropped releases that reverberate to this day and I think the whole point of this shell game is that it allows him to unleash his full creative vision without budgetary constraints via the Creed label and then do chopped down "everyman" versions with cheaper ingredients as a separate release for other houses, which happens a lot more than you'd suspect really.

Clever strategy for sure as its the same reason the music industry likes remixes so much because you can turn one hit record into two with ease as you already have a winning formula and the hard work is already done.

Now there will be those sitting there in their underwear reading these words saying "Bu bu but if he made teh Aventoos why not take teh credit n pantiez thrown?11?!/??" and thats because business is only ever 10% show with the rest being all about the dough as there are so many "artists" and "producers" out there right now that can't sing or make a beat to save their life but like the spot light, look the part and pay someone else handsomely so they can take the acclaim in the hopes of parlaying it into something bigger whilst the ghost gets to walk around freely in the world, realize his creative vision and quietly smile each time he hears praise thrown upon the "artist" in question and keep cashing those royalty cheques because after a certain point in the game you don't want the fame but a bit of peace and quiet along with the time to indulge your passions.

But back to Bourdonventus:

Luca Turin and Michael Edwards have both stated in print that Bourdon created GIT and not the Creeds as claimed and interestingly neither have been sued for defamation nor asked to retract their statements. Sure you can say its because Creed are above this (even though they allegedly astroturfed this forum so mercilessly a subforum had to be created to contain the traffic) and LT/ME are wrong (even though they are meticulous in their research) or you could consider they're also the sort to say:

In 1885, Queen Victoria appointed CREED “official supplier” to the British royal court. For her majesty, CREED created the scent Fleurs de Bulgarie by commission. This engaging scent, rich with roses, is available today. Also in 1885, Queen Maria Cristina of Spain named CREED her supplier by royal order.

In the 20th century, not only did royalty including the Duke and Duchess of Windsor choose CREED, but also leading politicians became CREED clients. Sir Winston Churchill wore CREED’s Tabarome. In America, young Congressman and future President John F. Kennedy wore CREED’s Vetiver.

In 1956, CREED created Grace Kelly’s wedding day scent, Fleurissimo, by order of her fiancé, Prince Rainier of Monaco. So began Hollywood’s long love affair with CREED.

In the late 20th and early 21st centuries, master perfumer Olivier CREED created some of CREED’s most beloved treasures: Green Irish Tweed, Millesime Imperial, Silver Mountain Water, Spring Flower, Himalaya and Original Vetiver, the latter two with the contributions of young Erwin CREED.

In 2005, Mr. CREED created Love In White. Worn by two First Ladies, it is sometimes called “the White House fragrance”. Laura Bush received the first bottle in 2005, thanking CREED in a note sent to Paris. Michelle Obama wears it as well, Washingtonian Magazine reports.

In 2006, Kate Middleton received the first bottle of CREED Royal Ceylan. 2006 also brought the debut of Original Santal for men and women, a scent of royal Indian sandalwood.

In 2007, CREED Virgin Island Water was born, winning four of five stars in a New York Times critique. 2008 brought Love In Black, inspired by Jacqueline Onassis. 2009 brought Acqua Fiorentina, evoking the Renaissance city of Florence. Also in 2009 came Sublime Vanille, first in a new Royal Exclusives collection-within-the-collection.

In 2010, CREED celebrated its 250th year by opening its only U.S. store at 794 Madison Avenue in Manhattan and with the creation of AVENTUS, described as “mesmerizing” by The New York Times.

In 2011, CREED will debut Royal-Oud for men and women, with luxurious oud coaxed from Agarwood trees and more expensive per ounce than palladium. CREED will also offer more creations in its Royal Exclusives line: Original Cologne and White Flowers.

Girl, you know its true :thumbsup:
 

mj2k

Basenotes Member
Sep 11, 2018
Very interesting read & the final quote a blast from my childhood!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Y4S_58

Super Member
Dec 14, 2018
This was an interesting read, thank you Palmolive. Pierre Bourdon is the man! The thesis that he created Aventus was floating around the web (or basenotes) for quite some time now. Looking at the history of popular Creed fragrances, I strongly believe that he was the driving force behind Aventus. But like you said, it's all about the business and "ghost producing" takes place in every industry nowadays.
 

HFMIII

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 29, 2016
Interesting read. You may be correct Palmolive, but considering Firmenich were involved it could have been Morillas or Cresp.

I can't find that Bourdon ever worked with Firmenich and someone there created Purple Label.
 

Sheik Yerbouti

oakmoss fiend
Basenotes Plus
Jul 20, 2017
Its something I’ve suspected for a long time and wouldn’t surprise me one bit if Mr Bourdon were in fact responsible, especially with the Cool Water / Individuel / Spice and Wood connection. Nice read man. Seems like this esteemed ghost writer is their almost-resident-well-paid-side-credit perfumer.
 
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Deleted member 13385235

Guest
Very interesting read & the final quote a blast from my childhood!

:cheesy: It just felt so apt given the truth behind the image!

This was an interesting read, thank you Palmolive. Pierre Bourdon is the man! The thesis that he created Aventus was floating around the web (or basenotes) for quite some time now. Looking at the history of popular Creed fragrances, I strongly believe that he was the driving force behind Aventus. But like you said, it's all about the business and "ghost producing" takes place in every industry nowadays.

Yep yep, do you have any links to the other posts/articles you mentioned please? Would like to read them to see their reasoning.

Posts like this make me wish the "like" feature was enabled on this forum. Good work.

Its something I’ve suspected for a long time and wouldn’t surprise me one bit if Mr Bourdon were in fact responsible, especially with the Cool Water / Individuel / Spice and Wood connection. Nice read man. Seems like this esteemed ghost writer is their almost-resident-well-paid-side-credit perfumer.

I appreciate your appreciation!

Interesting read. You may be correct Palmolive, but considering Firmenich were involved it could have been Morillas or Cresp.

I can't find that Bourdon ever worked with Firmenich and someone there created Purple Label.

Yes, I will admit that its not quite a clear slam dunk in this olfactory game of whostunkit!

Purple Label is definitely the anomaly and its also the closest in "shape" to Aventus in so many ways that its insane (I wrote a hefty post about these two a while back from a synesthesiac perspective) because its obviously the prototype without the bells, whistles and captives fleshing it out. The Firmenich link is also of note because as I mentioned the captives in question are theirs as well so there is a load that points to their involvement but seeing the same shape pop up in The Brun which is credited to Bourdon is what made me pin the tail on him in this game because even though its very a subtle similarity compared to Purple Label (where the heritage is supremely evident due to how far at the front it is) its still there and when you take the rest of the points into consideration it really does seem that all roads point to Pierre as the man behind the curtain and the driving force of this house.

Who knows what arrangement the Creeds, Bourdon and Firmenich (and who knows who else?) have going as ultimately we're all sitting on the outside looking in attempting to reverse engineer what our noses hear as we pontificate on forums such as these.

Paco Rabanne XS is also another blip as its credited to Rosendo Mateu + Gerard Anthony and smells like 1994 through and through even though 2002s Himalaya is evidently a niched up rendition of a very similar formula and thats credited to the Creeds too.

Ultimately its very, very odd that Creed have so many releases that have cheaper counterparts on the market and yet claim to originate the style/vibe so many times and how often Bourdon comes up in the mix. The other thing that really tipped me in his favor was finding out he was a smoker because only a heavy smoker could've thought of creating that clean and dirty contrast that was the hallmark of the original release of Aventus and one of my favourite batches of all time has the most realistic "freshly lit cigarette" accord that comes and goes every 45 minutes throughout the performance and is sheer genius in its application and creation, not to mention the sneaking suspicion I have of what they actually did to create this enigmatic accord that I shared with a chemist who said "Can't do it. Need better equipment than mine to get that effect" as I'd been playing around with recreating that style in my free time.

Ghosting is very important point of every creative field and those on the inside know who actually wrote what award winning series of books and not the yarn that was spun for the press to feed to the plebs as well as which old man is responsible for all of the words coming out of nearly every singers mouths - irrespective of what they say in interviews or on ASCAP - as well as which unknown got jacked for the latest couture designs gracing the catwalk and so on so why would fragrance be any different?

Ultimately its just a bit of a laugh really and another enigmatic layer of sprinkles on this already amusing olfactive cake which may just take the biscuit when it comes to not being what it seems but it sure does smell great!
 

chyprefresh

Basenotes Dependent
Jan 15, 2018
I don't think the smoke accord you're referring to is that elusive, several perfumes have it and I've made a few accords myself that smell alike the smoke in Aventus. The mastery of Aventus is the blending of naturals and ACs to create an extremely uplifting hypnotic chypre blend. However I have changed my stance and now agree that Creed most likely did not invent Aventus or formulate it, too many coincidences surrounding many of their releases as you've stated (GiT/Cool Water, Individuel/Santal etc). Not to mention they're already on shaky ground claiming to be perfuming since 1760 with zero proof, let alone any proof prior to 1980.
 
D

Deleted member 13385235

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I don't think the smoke accord you're referring to is that elusive, several perfumes have it and I've made a few accords myself that smell similar to the one in Aventus. The mastery of Aventus is the blending of naturals and ACs to create an extremely uplifting hypnotic chypre blend. However I have changed my stance and now agree that Creed most likely did not invent Aventus or formulate it, too many coincidences surrounding many of their releases as you've stated (GiT/Cool Water, Individuel/Santal etc). Not to mention they're already on shaky ground claiming to be perfuming since 1760 with zero proof.

Glad to hear you've seen sense as you were in danger of becoming a company man for a while there :thumbsup:

Which perfumes do you think have the same smoke accord as I've never encountered anything like it elsewhere. Also does your own creation capture that cleaned up dirty/transparent opaqueness contradictory juxtaposition that defined the original because I'm not talking about about an overdose of IBQ ala Royal Vintage or a Birch Tar uppercut like BeauFort or any of that other meaty/bbq/stale/charred crap that so many people peddle as their smokey version of an already crappy clone but that honest to goodness, accurate freshly lit cigarette vibe with the associated clean wisps of smoke that defined this scent thanks to it delicate interplay with the rest of the accords via the masterful blending as you stated.
 

chyprefresh

Basenotes Dependent
Jan 15, 2018
Bergamust Noir Gallagher Fragrances is one that fits the description of a scent with juxtaposition clean and dirty smoke but it's not quite as wearable as vintage Averntus was. I actually don't consider vintage Aventus smoke as a lit cigarette, I always felt it had more of an ashy, spicy aspect with a slight metallic edge lending from the pineapple I suppose, I only have an aspect of it down. I won't spill my hard work on this site as I have made over 50 attempts and many nights researching/brainstorming. My smoke accord consists of 16 ingredients.
- - - Updated - - -

I will say that it's easy to look past some materials that would seem.... too strong or glaringly obvious. It's about interplay and masking certain aspects with others, and lifting others up (or bringing down), kind of like a duo of ice-skaters.
 
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Deleted member 13385235

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Bergamust Noir Gallagher Fragrances is one that fits the description of a scent with juxtaposition clean and dirty smoke but it's not quite as wearable as vintage Averntus was. I actually don't consider vintage Aventus smoke as a lit cigarette, I always felt it had more of an ashy, spicy aspect with a slight metallic edge lending from the pineapple I suppose, I only have an aspect of it down. I won't spill my hard work on this site as I have made over 50 attempts and many nights researching/brainstorming. My smoke accord consists of 16 ingredients.
- - - Updated - - -

I will say that it's easy to look past some materials that would seem.... too strong or glaringly obvious. It's about interplay and masking certain aspects with others, and lifting others up (or bringing down), kind of like a duo of ice-skaters.

Thanks for not screeching in this thread, much appreciated.

Based on what you've said you didn't get what I was referring to originally so there's no point in me discussing it further with you anyway.
 

Y4S_58

Super Member
Dec 14, 2018
Ouch, that escalated quickly. But let's move on and find clues that prove that Bourdon was the nose behind Aventus. And then let's find Bourdon and interrogate him (jk?) :D
 
D

Deleted member 13385235

Guest
Agreed. That was uncalled for unless there is a history between you two.

You obviously haven't had the pleasure of reading his previous commentary in the batch thread followed by flood of PMs that lead the fellow onto my ignore list not long after he signed up...

A place I think he'll have to frequent again (even after my recent amnesty) as I have a distinct allergy (quick call the IFRA!) to his babble. Nip it in the bud and all that.
 

epapsiou

Always be smelling
Basenotes Plus
Sep 28, 2015
You obviously haven't had the pleasure of reading his previous commentary in the batch thread followed by flood of PMs that lead the fellow onto my ignore list not long after he signed up...

A place I think he'll have to frequent again (even after my recent amnesty) as I have a distinct allergy (quick call the IFRA!) to his babble. Nip it in the bud and all that.

I guess you guys have a history then ;)

On to topic at hand. I met an SA, old time, who worked with Laurice when she was still distributing Creed. According to SA, the family knows nothing about making fragrances and they outsource it to one guy. SA would not reveal that guy's name but a safe assumption would be Bourdon. The SA still works in the industry so I won't divulge much but PM me if you need more details.
 

HFMIII

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 29, 2016
Paco Rabanne XS is also another blip as its credited to Rosendo Mateu + Gerard Anthony and smells like 1994 through and through even though 2002s Himalaya is evidently a niched up rendition of a very similar formula and thats credited to the Creeds too.

This is true, another we haven't mentioned here yet is the similarity between Mugler Cologne (2001) which was credited to Morillas and Original Vetiver (2004). :thumbsup:
 
D

Deleted member 13385235

Guest
On to topic at hand. I met an SA, old time, who worked with Laurice when she was still distributing Creed. According to SA, the family knows nothing about making fragrances and they outsource it to one guy. SA would not reveal that guy's name but a safe assumption would be Bourdon. The SA still works in the industry so I won't divulge much but PM me if you need more details.

Now that is very interesting. Someone once shared a similar sentiment with me about how my Milli Vaniili theory was right on the money and that they not only outsource the creation of the formula but also the compounding which is done all over France as all they do (aside from fronting) is bottle and distribute. There was a video of their setup on youtube at one point and it looked primitive at best which was a surprise at the time.

The outsourcing info made a lot of sense because it would partly explain the batch variations which in themselves are something of an enigma because you'd assume that if they were contracting they'd have stricter QC or at the very least expect them to create their orders via a formula but we've see numerous blips in the journey which suggest its pretty much a free for all behind the scenes. Most telling was in 2017 when they switched out the Ambergris base for the much cheaper, louder and obnoxious Amber Xtreme instead so it does seem that whoever gets the contract is given some free reign to throw in a bit of this and that as they see fit (more art instead of science you could say) because that in turn keeps the batch thread popping, the subforum active and provides them with more free advertising. Smart!

You've got to hand it to the real brains behind this concept though, they certainly know what they are doing and even turned that early ashy batch disaster into a selling point and that is sheer genius as well how they've manufactured an entire legacy out of fresh air to push their admittedly amazing product. I've said before that the House of Creed is much like this:

apparances4-930x523.jpg


From a forced perspective you'd think it was all real but looked at from anywhere else but where they want you to look and you can see its all front. All very interesting as they are such a reflection of the zeitgeist of this era with all sizzle and no steak being the watchword and have tapped into a very profitable niche by selling people the grandeur/prestige by association so many desire to bolster their egos in this age and they've done it all on a shoestring with the most minimal marketing spend ever due to how well they used the net and places like these.

All of this wouldn't be possible if the product wasn't all that as that's all I really care about but as a dude who likes taking things apart to see how they work and knows a thing or two about the intersection of creativity and business I must say that its a breathtaking case study that proves how the sum of a situation can be far more than its parts if you know how to play your strengths and have your finger on the pulse of the market.

This is true, another we haven't mentioned here yet is the similarity between Mugler Cologne (2001) which was credited to Morillas and Original Vetiver (2004). :thumbsup:

Another excellent catch, thanks. It does seem more and more that Creed is some kind of "clearing house" style project along the lines of what I mentioned earlier viz the everyman version and original unmetered composition renditions and once again Morillas pops up. Things like this just prove what I outlined in the OP about the smoke and mirrors behind this house but then the mystery and its resolution itself is quite a good laugh as well for those of us that don't sip the marketing Kool Aid.

It may just be something as simple as the Creeds sit there flicking through the olfactive equivalent of demo tapes from the big aroma chemical suppliers, sniff something they like and say "That one!" at which point the money men step in, see if it will sell, how they will market it, what fancifl tale they'll weave and send for the existing formula to be reinterpreted/made more expensive by using stuff like Ambergris and the usual house flourishes and off they go or it could be the other way round that people submit their original concepts which were rejected due to being over budget and then pared down and Creed rebadge the first run as their creation.

Plenty of stars have became just that by singing a song their idol rejected that they heard on some dusty tape laying around forgotten in the back seat on an A&Rs car only to have their idol come up to them later and say "I hate you! Why did you take my song?" half jokingly.

Either way I'm confident that its something along those lines if they have any kind of input at all on the scents and aren't just purely salesmen slash actors playing the role of perfumers.


One interesting thing I did hear ages ago was that the original take of Aventus that never got to production was very different to what did make it out in that it was far more complex/herbal, more challenging and deeper all round. It was seen as too niche/out there after testing and was retooled to make it fresher/simpler and this is the reason why the first few batches had such a strong early 90s deodorant vibe before the real scent itself kicked into full swing in 2011. You can see that that the fragrance itself has been constantly tweaked even beyond the batch variations since its inception and has gone through a fair few shifts of formula with the latest one being the smoothest/most mass appealing as they've took off all the rough edges and things people could dislike in exchange for a product that will please most who inhale it and that kind of perpetual tweaking is unheard of with any other scent so it shows that Bourdon (or whoever the real nose is) is still very much active and taking an interest in his baby on a frequent basis.

That also correlates nicely with the points outlined in the OP where you can see the evolution of what would become the scents DNA via various other releases so it shows whoever made it made it because they liked it and not because it was a brief for their day job as true creativity doesn't come with a salary and you what you do for a cheque is different to what you do just because you can.

Either way, I'm a gambling man and I'd lay my stake on it being Pierre who reinvented the chypre wheel and stuck a slice of smoked pineapple between its spokes and peeled off down the street sounding like this:


Whilst laughing his head off!
 

Jack103

Basenotes Junkie
Nov 21, 2009
Agreed and this is something I've been ponderng for a while too. Another hidden similarity: Individuel itself has a musky, metallic woody amber drydown interwoven with the same pineapple from Aventus. One time I wore Individuel then woke up the next morning and could've sworn I sprayed Aventus on the day before.
 

chyprefresh

Basenotes Dependent
Jan 15, 2018
Agreed and this is something I've been ponderng for a while too. Another hidden similarity: Individuel itself has a musky, metallic woody amber drydown interwoven with the same pineapple from Aventus. One time I wore Individuel then woke up the next morning and could've sworn I sprayed Aventus on the day before.

That's the famous Creed accord you're smelling, I don't find it all that captivating as it's quite safe and dull but it is inoffensive and versatile.

- - - Updated - - -
 
D

Deleted member 13385235

Guest
Agreed and this is something I've been ponderng for a while too. Another hidden similarity: Individuel itself has a musky, metallic woody amber drydown interwoven with the same pineapple from Aventus. One time I wore Individuel then woke up the next morning and could've sworn I sprayed Aventus on the day before.

I haven't inhaled that scent for eons but will check it out, thanks.

Here is some further information to read regarding the connection between Pierre Bourdon & Creed:

1. http://www.basenotes.net/threads/296239-Pierre-Bourdon-amp-Creed-any-new-information
2. http://www.basenotes.net/threads/24...-Creed-s-Orange-Spice-and-copy-it-with-Kouros

But I can't find the thread where someone mentioned Aventus. Only found 2 posts in the "batch number 2" thread.

Great find. So now we can add:

Kouros -- Orange Spice

To the ever growing list of "scents made by Olivier Creed that happen to smell just like other cheaper frags made by someone else" :D


The more I think about it now I think this is whats actually going on:

The Big 3 of Givaudan, Firmenich & IFF (who together control nearly 50% of the market) had had enough of making peanuts in comparison to the houses when it comes to retail sales so they decided to take their show on the road and go direct to public with their top flight formulas using the best materials and captives they already control. Issue was that no one will buy a scent from a new faceless corporation, no matter how good it is, and they didn't want to do a marketing spend to create a new legend so they found Creed and exploded their probable history into an immense fantasy and set it away on the net as they allowed their product to do the talking.

They get a lions share of the profit for very little outlay, a foot in the door of the retail game and can use their knowledge and expertise to ensure they craft compositions that win either by recycling old ideas with a new lick of paint or offering aromatic sensations that other manufacturers simply can't compete with because they don't have the raw materials as that is what makes Aventus Aventus - as well as the one or two proprietary non trademarked (in the sense that Coca Colas Formula 7X isn't so they don't have to disclose it) components they use which give the scent its "effect" and is very noticeable in its absence from the clones - and makes it sell so well.

Truly an amazing business move and the more I think about it the more I think thats exactly the deal with folks like Bourdon being part of the team that get to come out and play in exchange for keeping their names and claims quiet for which they are compensated accordingly whilst the Big 3 sell the buyers the Creed fantasy backed with the reality of amazing scents. Everyone gets paid far more together than they would have apart and it allows them to take steps in colonizing the retail market whilst securing their dominance on the manufacturing side as well.
 

chyprefresh

Basenotes Dependent
Jan 15, 2018
Palmolive, you're giving Aventus far too much undeserved credit for whatever reason, it did not reinvent chypres, the outline has been around since the 1920s Guerlain Mitsouko and the Coty Chypre, everything else is just window dressing, smoky pineapple isn't revolutionary. Creed should only get credit for clever marketing and changing gears just in time to create a safer non-sensitizing fragrance and using the vintage batches and the lore as a driving force to up the prices and drive batch seekers up the walls with anticipation. Aventus was an amazing fragrance but the chypre fruity outline has always been there, it's now in fact just a very safe, great smelling and well constructed fragrance utilizing fresh floral and musky undertones for versatility. The Creed company are snake oil salesmen with a catchy aura about them and nothing more. I'm going to give your hilarious exaggeration about me a pass, because nothing you say is true, and would gladly ignore you if you we'rent so entertaining.
 

HFMIII

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 29, 2016
Interesting read. You may be correct Palmolive, but considering Firmenich were involved it could have been Morillas or Cresp.

I can't find that Bourdon ever worked with Firmenich and someone there created Purple Label.

I was inspired by this thread to do a bit of searching this morning. According to an article done by the Fragrance Foundation on his lifetime achievement award Harry Fremont was the perfumer behind, or at least worked on Purple Label see below:

"Every surface of his impressive office is covered in a kaleidoscopic array of fragrance bottles from his career – a broad selection of high-fashion elixirs, mass-market brands, and a slew of celebrity namesake scents. The breadth and scope of his oeuvre is remarkable – including Tom Ford’s Grey Vetiver and Tuscan Leather; Ralph Lauren’s Polo Sport and Purple Label;"

http://www.fragrance.org/lifetime-achievement-perfumer-harry-fremont/

Firmenich made a documentary about him in which he states that he loves the smell of smoke and he makes a fire every day of the year even in the summer. :undecided:
 
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Deleted member 13385235

Guest
I was inspired by this thread to do a bit of searching this morning. According to an article done by the Fragrance Foundation on his lifetime achievement award Harry Fremont was the perfumer behind, or at least worked on Purple Label see below:

"Every surface of his impressive office is covered in a kaleidoscopic array of fragrance bottles from his career – a broad selection of high-fashion elixirs, mass-market brands, and a slew of celebrity namesake scents. The breadth and scope of his oeuvre is remarkable – including Tom Ford’s Grey Vetiver and Tuscan Leather; Ralph Lauren’s Polo Sport and Purple Label;"

http://www.fragrance.org/lifetime-achievement-perfumer-harry-fremont/

Firmenich made a documentary about him in which he states that he loves the smell of smoke and he makes a fire every day of the year even in the summer. :undecided:

This just gets more and more interesting! The smoke thing certainly is curious and was one of the elements that swayed me to Bourdon as well because it the nose behind the scent has to be intimate with the aroma to use it in the way they did but a quick perusal of Fremonts previous creations doesn't lead me to believe he made Aventus whereas there are numerous "tells" in Bourdons work but then that darn Purple Label anomaly is still sitting there in the middle of the room....

Either way, if you see what I posted here you'll note my new perspective goes beyond the nose to include the corporate aspects at play so it may have been collaborative or even a case of them handing over the PL skeleton to Bourdon who added his own twist to birth Aventus. This seems most likely because its virtually the same gameplan that so many of their other releases have followed anyway by taking an old formula and pimping it out with some shiny bells and top quality whistles.
 

Y4S_58

Super Member
Dec 14, 2018
Very informative and well thought-out reasoning with the 'Big 3 fragrance and oil companies'. I recently watch this video about Alberto Morillas:

https://youtu.be/O_hF8PfkBxE

Around the 7 min. mark, he speaks about the machines that create hundreds of modifications of a fragrance according to the taste/desire of the parfumeur.

I read an article about a cooperation between Symrise and IBM, who invented a machine called "Philyra". It's basically a machine that works with machine learning and tons of algorithms/formulas (They promote it as advanced machine learning algorithm... So no deep learning i guess :D)
Here is the press text/article directly from IBM:

https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2018/10/ai-fragrances/

The "robots" in the video and the way Morillas is talks about their functions immediately reminded me of the machines mentioned in the article.
I guess Firmenich has their own machine that are powered with their own database of formulas etc.

Now I really want that Pierre Bourdon is the real master parfumeur behind Aventus and not a machine of Givaudan, Firmenich etc. :D
 
D

Deleted member 13385235

Guest
Great find. On the topic of AI and fragrances:

Sauvage hit me with the "This wasn't entirely designed by a human" vibes when I inhaled it due to how its all put together as it feels like surgically sliced accords of others scents stitched together to create an olfactory Frankenstein designed to get people running to the tills as it just has that feel in spades. There is something about the composition that seems off in the same way that that a drum machine can't capture the pocket/groove that a real player can no matter how good it sounds because the imperfections themselves are what make you move by catching your ear but thats another topic for another thread...

Back to the Big 3 and their Creed puppet show:

The automated database thing really makes a lot of sense and with the right input could be used like a olfactive version of Photoshop in that you could feed in any old basic ass formula and it would tinker it, apply a sheen and pop out a very niched up rendition of the same basic idea at the end and that, ladies and gentlemen, is what master perfumer Oliiver Creed has done again and again with the numerous compositions to his name ;)

I do think that between our contributions in this thread we've actually gone beyond the "Who made Aventus" question and hit the "Who made Creed" target bang in the middle because all of these little bits and pieces of info certainly seem to point in one direction and it just feels like it makes sense with all the parties involved.

Great work folks.
 

chyprefresh

Basenotes Dependent
Jan 15, 2018
Very informative and well thought-out reasoning with the 'Big 3 fragrance and oil companies'. I recently watch this video about Alberto Morillas:

https://youtu.be/O_hF8PfkBxE

Around the 7 min. mark, he speaks about the machines that create hundreds of modifications of a fragrance according to the taste/desire of the parfumeur.

I read an article about a cooperation between Symrise and IBM, who invented a machine called "Philyra". It's basically a machine that works with machine learning and tons of algorithms/formulas (They promote it as advanced machine learning algorithm... So no deep learning i guess :D)
Here is the press text/article directly from IBM:

https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2018/10/ai-fragrances/

The "robots" in the video and the way Morillas is talks about their functions immediately reminded me of the machines mentioned in the article.
I guess Firmenich has their own machine that are powered with their own database of formulas etc.

Now I really want that Pierre Bourdon is the real master parfumeur behind Aventus and not a machine of Givaudan, Firmenich etc. :D

Machine learning wasn't a thing until gradient descent algorithms took off in 2012, so it's safe to say Aventus was created by a human(s). This magician is obviously very shy because who wouldn't want to lay claim to the greatest fragrance of the 21st century (so far)? It seems Erwin and Olivier will happily take that trophy to their graves. That was my original argument that Palmolive couldn't comprehend for whatever reason, why wouldn't someone lay claim to a masterpiece and be remembered by it? Money seems futile in this situation.

This lends to a theory that Aventus was created by Firmenich by a slew of perfumers working on a big project funded by Creed. And Erwin and Olivier payed for the rights to the composition so nobody else could lay claim to its creation. They had a new boutique in Madison Ave, New York City riding on its success.
 

Y4S_58

Super Member
Dec 14, 2018
Exactly, Palmolive. Most of the things we said here are hypothetical and we got a lot of thesis so far, but most of these thesis make a lot of sense and some are even backed by facts (e.g. Creeds not-so-old legacy) And i agree that we already hit the "Who made Creed" question, which is a wonderful subject for further discussions...or may I say investigations :D

And believe it or not, I feel exactly the same when smelling Sauvage. It feels artificial and somehow 'cold', in the sense that it doesn't seem to have gotten a "final polish" from a human being hahaha. By saying that, I mean that Dior didn't want it to be "a little bit raw" or "have some edges". I think that they released the fragrance at the earliest opportunity, like the moment the machine gave an output that was "acceptable".

Think about this (purely hypothetical): The company that created Aventus browses through the database and selects earlier fragrances of Pierre Bourdon that were similar to Aventus (style-wise) and sets them as the "base fragrances" in the machine. Then they set the parameter for the ingredients cost a little bit higher (from 4€ per fragrance to 5€ :D) and set the threshold value for the number of ingredients quite low (ala Pierre Bourdon style, mentioned it in an interview afaik). Et voila: Creed Aventus is born! :D
 

Brooks Otterlake

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Feb 12, 2019
Very informative and well thought-out reasoning with the 'Big 3 fragrance and oil companies'. I recently watch this video about Alberto Morillas:

https://youtu.be/O_hF8PfkBxE

Around the 7 min. mark, he speaks about the machines that create hundreds of modifications of a fragrance according to the taste/desire of the parfumeur.

I read an article about a cooperation between Symrise and IBM, who invented a machine called "Philyra". It's basically a machine that works with machine learning and tons of algorithms/formulas (They promote it as advanced machine learning algorithm... So no deep learning i guess :D)
Here is the press text/article directly from IBM:

https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2018/10/ai-fragrances/

The "robots" in the video and the way Morillas is talks about their functions immediately reminded me of the machines mentioned in the article.
I guess Firmenich has their own machine that are powered with their own database of formulas etc.

Now I really want that Pierre Bourdon is the real master parfumeur behind Aventus and not a machine of Givaudan, Firmenich etc. :D
This explains so much about the precipitous decline of mainstream fragrance releases.
 

Y4S_58

Super Member
Dec 14, 2018
Thanks for the info about machine learning there, SharpLess. What do you think about the idea that it may have been automated database operations, although thats also a quite recent "invention"?
But I guess the idea of Palmolive is very plausible: Pierre Bourdon, maybe with the help of Firmenich, Givaudan or IFF, enhances an "old basic ass formula" by making it thicker and more complex. Maybe even by using his own "old formula".

- - - Updated - - -

Right, it's really sad. But the outcome is that we get so many flankers so chances are high that at least one of them has a pleasant smell :D
 

chyprefresh

Basenotes Dependent
Jan 15, 2018
Thanks for the info about machine learning there, SharpLess. What do you think about the idea that it may have been automated database operations, although thats also a quite recent "invention"?
But I guess the idea of Palmolive is very plausible: Pierre Bourdon, maybe with the help of Firmenich, Givaudan or IFF, enhances an "old basic ass formula" by making it thicker and more complex. Maybe even by using his own "old formula".

I think a man entering his twilight years and two years removed as a full-time perfumer (prior to the release date of Aventus) to create something so highly refined and well tuned is unlikely. And for a man winding down, to not take credit for it as a financial or business decision seems highly unlikely. If I were him I would not want to work under the guise of anyone else's company and would rather do my own thing. As for Aventus being formulated by a machine using machine-learning, impossible because it didn't exist commercially until well after 2012. However they could have used other methods using databases and other crowd sourced data. But vintage Aventus to me has the hallmarks of a personal touch, a man's experience and journey as a perfumer, it feels very organic.
 

Y4S_58

Super Member
Dec 14, 2018
I understand what you are saying. I agree with you on the point that Aventus feels very organic and to achieve that, at least at one point of the fragrance development, personal experience from a (master) parfumeur was incorporated into the final formula of Aventus.
The most predominant reason why I think Bourdon was that guy is that there are way to many popular Creed fragrances linked to his name to believe that its just a bunch of coincidences.
From an economical point of view, ghost producing may be more lucrative, esp. when you are working for the "super niche, super exclusive" house of Creed.
Although he may stopped working full time 2 years prior to the release of Aventus as you say, his experience in parfumery doesn't vanish all of a sudden :D He may also have wrote the formula before the two years of his pause.
 

Sheik Yerbouti

oakmoss fiend
Basenotes Plus
Jul 20, 2017
Bourdon has nothing to prove. He is already highly revered and accomplished as a nose, hence why he probably wouldn't say anything if he is the perfumer, for now anyway. Its not like the man’s a one hit wonder. Most perfumers would relish having one of his greatest hits. If, and I emphasise if, he is the perfumer he probably has a non-disclosure agreement and will just wait for a posthumous release of his memoirs to say....

giphy.gif
 

Y4S_58

Super Member
Dec 14, 2018
But with so many to wade through, who has the time and resources to find the few decent ones?

Sigh.

Thats the real problem. But luckily, we can at least try most of the designer fragrances in local stores, unlike super niche fragrances. And because of that, more people have access to them and we can rely on reviews, if they seem approx. similar and share similar opinions.

- - - Updated - - -

Bourdon has nothing to prove. He is already highly revered and accomplished as a nose, hence why he probably wouldn't say anything if he is the perfumer, for now anyway. Its not like the man’s a one hit wonder. Most perfumers would relish having one of his greatest hits. If, and I emphasise if, he is the perfumer he probably has a non-disclosure agreement and will just wait for a posthumous release of his memoirs to say....

giphy.gif
True, there is definitely a non disclosure agreement.
 

chyprefresh

Basenotes Dependent
Jan 15, 2018
Legacy over money, especially in someone's twilight years. Also it's not out of the realm of possibilities that Creed is copying these popular perfumes and using very high end ingredients as a way of tweaking and improving them. That last bit was funny though.
 

Y4S_58

Super Member
Dec 14, 2018
Legacy over money, especially in someone's twilight years. Also it's not out of the realm of possibilities that Creed is copying these popular perfumes and using very high end ingredients as a way of tweaking and improving them. That last bit was funny though.

Anmerkung1.jpg

Comparison between Pierre Bourdon and Alberto Morillas (the peak at the end of the graph might be due to more people interested in the persona of Morillas because of Jeremy Fragrance etc.)

Anmerkung.jpg

And here, I brought in Francis Kurkdjian. They both lose against him when it comes to popularity :D Obviously, because he has his own fragrance brand.

And guys, I advise you to use DuckDuckGo instead of Google as your main search engine :D

PS. : I see what you did there, SharpLess :D
 

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