Citrus Sweetness options

Michael Andrews

Well-known member
May 23, 2020
I've been playing around with the citrus floral summer style perfumes;
bergamot/lemon
Spices (black/pink pepper, linalool)
florals (geranium/alpha isomethyl ionone/lavander/DHM,hedione)
woody accord ( IES, Super amber, vetiveryl acetate)
amber accord with AMBROXAN overdose.

I've noticed a distinct requirement for fruity/sweet materials, most formulas I've looked rely on coumarin (not fruity but very sweet) peach lactone C14, alpha damascone, (alpha)hexyl cinnamaldehye, pineapple accord, apple accord etc. To balance the harsh astringent and dry materials which I just listed.


I'm wondering if anyone has any other options, I noticed that Louis Appel uses Raspberry ketone in hia bergamot imitation formulas, but I'm looking at perfumes like Sauavage which list no fruity notes, and which direction they went. I tried using a large amount of helvetolide with a bit of cedar atlas for its sweetness but am still finding it to be very Pinesol esque. I have tried to simply just reduce all of the sharp spices and nerf the formula, which simply reduces its impact, still smells sharp and it has no performance.

I may try 0.5 ppt amount of Raspberry ketone, but I'm really trying to avoid detectable fruitiness.

Thanks
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
I've been playing around with the citrus floral summer style perfumes;
bergamot/lemon
Spices (black/pink pepper, linalool)
florals (geranium/alpha isomethyl ionone/lavander/DHM,hedione)
woody accord ( IES, Super amber, vetiveryl acetate)
amber accord with AMBROXAN overdose.

I've noticed a distinct requirement for fruity/sweet materials, most formulas I've looked rely on coumarin (not fruity but very sweet) peach lactone C14, alpha damascone, (alpha)hexyl cinnamaldehye, pineapple accord, apple accord etc. To balance the harsh astringent and dry materials which I just listed.


I'm wondering if anyone has any other options, I noticed that Louis Appel uses Raspberry ketone in hia bergamot imitation formulas, but I'm looking at perfumes like Sauavage which list no fruity notes, and which direction they went. I tried using a large amount of helvetolide with a bit of cedar atlas for its sweetness but am still finding it to be very Pinesol esque. I have tried to simply just reduce all of the sharp spices and nerf the formula, which simply reduces its impact, still smells sharp and it has no performance.

I may try 0.5 ppt amount of Raspberry ketone, but I'm really trying to avoid detectable fruitiness.

Thanks

I just used raspberry ketone for the same purpose in a composition with citrus/herbal top, rosy heart, woody base at 2 ppt. This did not confer a detectable fruity note.
 

Citroasis

Well-known member
Jul 24, 2021
Raspberry keytone is awesome to add subtle fruitiness without it smelling raspberry. Im currently using it at 7ppt in a mens summer citrus cologne and it works wonderfully with the muget and orange blossom mids. I do have it buried in a bit of 'woody amber' materials in the base, but it works.

Also things like manzanate in traces can give a fruity opening without becoming apple. Even experimenting with 'Robertets Pear Natural' at 5ppt helps give the opening a slight fruity wet/juiciness without it actually coming across as pears.

Its all subjective to what else you have in your blend to see what does works or not, and if you can burry it with other materials so they dont stick out much.
 

Michael Andrews

Well-known member
May 23, 2020
Thanks guys, I added a bit of RK, and some Helional and it's much less harsh, going to see if I can work with these, also will try to get the other materials you guys mentioned!
 

jameshillier

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Jul 15, 2020
I'm working on a similar concept now, too! Concept is bright, clear, citrus, "non-descript freshie", uplifting, slightly aquatic, in the same vein as CLinique Happy for men. I'm calling it 29 and Sunny (which translates to 82ºF :cheesy:). My aim is a bit less sweet fruity, but I do need a secondary theme - so I'm trying white floral. Yeah, original I know!

For yours, how about cis-3-hexenyl acetate, damascones? delta is hella fruity. A bit of citral can make the mix lemon candy-ish, so maybe some lemon myrtle? I learned of ethyl safranate via a Rose d'Arabie GCMS, which is kind of spicy and sweet at the same time - might be worth a try. A microtouch of ethyl vanillin? berry butyrate? Light Blue springs to mind when I think sweet citrus. Perhaps you could try going in an apple direction like Light Blue does?

Below is a GCMS report of Light Blue I found on the perfumemaking groups.io group (formerly Yahoo group). Original File in Polish(?) linked here.

Light Blue is the column marked 2 - the other columns are imitations. The subject of the original paper is a comparison of successful commercial fragrances and their knock-off counterparts.


D&G Light Blue (Femme) English via google translate.jpg
 

Citroasis

Well-known member
Jul 24, 2021
I'm working on a similar concept now, too! Concept is bright, clear, citrus, "non-descript freshie", uplifting, slightly aquatic, in the same vein as CLinique Happy for men. I'm calling it 29 and Sunny (which translates to 82ºF :cheesy:). My aim is a bit less sweet fruity, but I do need a secondary theme - so I'm trying white floral. Yeah, original I know!

For yours, how about cis-3-hexenyl acetate, damascones? delta is hella fruity. A bit of citral can make the mix lemon candy-ish, so maybe some lemon myrtle? I learned of ethyl safranate via a Rose d'Arabie GCMS, which is kind of spicy and sweet at the same time - might be worth a try. A microtouch of ethyl vanillin? berry butyrate? Light Blue springs to mind when I think sweet citrus. Perhaps you could try going in an apple direction like Light Blue does?

Below is a GCMS report of Light Blue I found on the perfumemaking groups.io group (formerly Yahoo group). Original File in Polish(?) linked here.

Light Blue is the column marked 2 - the other columns are imitations. The subject of the original paper is a comparison of successful commercial fragrances and their knock-off counterparts.


Is this the Mens or womens Light Blue? I know the mens was Light Blue 'por Homme'
 

Michael Andrews

Well-known member
May 23, 2020
I'm working on a similar concept now, too! Concept is bright, clear, citrus, "non-descript freshie", uplifting, slightly aquatic, in the same vein as CLinique Happy for men. I'm calling it 29 and Sunny (which translates to 82ºF :cheesy:). My aim is a bit less sweet fruity, but I do need a secondary theme - so I'm trying white floral. Yeah, original I know!

For yours, how about cis-3-hexenyl acetate, damascones? delta is hella fruity. A bit of citral can make the mix lemon candy-ish, so maybe some lemon myrtle? I learned of ethyl safranate via a Rose d'Arabie GCMS, which is kind of spicy and sweet at the same time - might be worth a try. A microtouch of ethyl vanillin? berry butyrate? Light Blue springs to mind when I think sweet citrus. Perhaps you could try going in an apple direction like Light Blue does?

Below is a GCMS report of Light Blue I found on the perfumemaking groups.io group (formerly Yahoo group). Original File in Polish(?) linked here.

Light Blue is the column marked 2 - the other columns are imitations. The subject of the original paper is a comparison of successful commercial fragrances and their knock-off counterparts.


Legendary! Thank-you

Excuse my novice question, which values are the volume/weight in that formula?
 

greeneaj87

Well-known member
May 25, 2020
I've been blending citrus accords a bit lately, and have found Fructone, Methyl Phenyl Acetate (use sparingly) and of course Citral or Lemongrass EO add a bit of a sweetness to the top/mids.
For super top/volatile notes, ethyl 2-methyl butyrate adds a pleasant berry/apple type sweetness. There are, of course, plenty of other esters and butyrates that impart sweetness to the first seconds/minutes of a fragrance.
 

jameshillier

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Jul 15, 2020
Legendary! Thank-you

Excuse my novice question, which values are the volume/weight in that formula?

2(%) is the column you’re looking for. It isn’t a formula though. It’s an estimation of the individual molecules the GC machine detected at particular times as the sample perfume mixture was evaporated through the column. The top always shows the most volatile molecules as they evaporate first, then typically proceeding gradually in order of volatility through to the heavier, least volatile molecules in the mix.

The trick is to estimate, based on the available data, what mixtures may be within the perfume, such as essential oils. In this case I suspect lemon oil is one of them, which has a lot of limonene. Then, using your knowledge of lemon oil (see essentialoils.org database) you can associate proportionate amounts of the other molecules with lemon oil to gain an approximate idea of how much lemon oil may be present in the sampled mixture.

2A, 2B, 2C are the columns representing the percentage readouts from the three other perfumes that were tested - the knock-off imitations. The purpose is to compare the make-up of the four samples.
 

Michael Andrews

Well-known member
May 23, 2020
2(%) is the column you’re looking for. It isn’t a formula though. It’s an estimation of the individual molecules the GC machine detected at particular times as the sample perfume mixture was evaporated through the column. The top always shows the most volatile molecules as they evaporate first, then typically proceeding gradually in order of volatility through to the heavier, least volatile molecules in the mix.

The trick is to estimate, based on the available data, what mixtures may be within the perfume, such as essential oils. In this case I suspect lemon oil is one of them, which has a lot of limonene. Then, using your knowledge of lemon oil (see essentialoils.org database) you can associate proportionate amounts of the other molecules with lemon oil to gain an approximate idea of how much lemon oil may be present in the sampled mixture.

2A, 2B, 2C are the columns representing the percentage readouts from the three other perfumes that were tested - the knock-off imitations. The purpose is to compare the make-up of the four samples.

Thank you for the explanation James very much appreciated. I will have some fun doing some investigation there.
 

Michael Andrews

Well-known member
May 23, 2020
Have you tried Nerol, Cyclomethylene citronellol, Yara Yara, Citral PGA, or Citral Schiff base?

I have not tried those other than citral on its own, was considering the Citral Schiff base.
I will try Nerol, and look into getting some Cyclomethylene citronellol and Yara Yara.
I just saw the Cyclomethylene Citronellol is available at PSH, Thank you very much Paul, always a big help. Thanks for sharing this.
 

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