gido

Well-known member
May 31, 2008
hello.

i have made a rose like note with a few aroma chemicals and one natural. i haven't got some very important materials like nerol, beta damascenone, rose oxide, beta ionone, and even worse no natural rose (nor geranium) oil.

i have used some rose alcohols and ended up with a very sharp, almost harsh, way too fresh and thin note. not very good! then i tried again, this time changing the amounts and adding thing to make it softer, deeper an fuller. one ingredient that turned out useful here was labdanum. here's my current formula (in drops):

phenyl ethyl alcohol 25% 10
iso e super 20% 10
geraniol 10% 4
iso eugenol 5% 2
citronellal 20% 10
labdanum 3% 10
linalool 10% 3
cinnem. alc 12,5% 1
musk ketone 5% 4

it is not unsatisfying for a second experiment by an absolute beginner, it does have a smell related to rose.
however, i still want it to be more velvety rose petal soft, and it could be richer too. what are your suggestions?
i will receive some geranium oil soon, i guess the natural richness of this might help, though i suspect that the geranium is less soft/sweet/deep than a real rose.
at this point, i could use some suggestions/directions from more experienced people.

ps. i also will get some nerol real soon. plus, i am wondering what farnesol contributes to rose.
 
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joxer96

Well-known member
Nov 8, 2007
Here are a couple rose base formulas:

Red rose base

Geraniol 250
alpha-iso-methyl ionone (iraldeine gamma) 150
Citronellol 150
Benzyl acetate 50
CYCLOSIA base (Firmenich) 50
Bulgarian rose oil 10% 50
Rose Crystals 50
Lilial 40
Phenylethyl pivalate (pivarose/centifolyl) 40
Phenylethyl alcohol 30
Exaltolide 30
Phenoxyethyl isobutyrate 30
Citronella oil of Java 10% 20
Geranium oil of Africa 20
Phenylacetic aldehyde 10% 10
beta Damascenone 10% 10

Total 980

Rose accord
soft petal-like

ALDEHYDE C11 UNDECYLENIC 10.0% 10
ALDEHYDE C12 LAURIC 10.0% 20
AMYL PHENYLACETATE 50
CITRONELLOL 480
EUGENOL 20
GERANIOL 50
LINALOL 120
NEROL 10
PHENYLETHYL ALCOHOL 200
ROSE OXIDE 10
DAMAROSE ALPHA (Fir) 10.0% 30

1000

Copied from Firmenich

I'd probably stay away from the ISO E Super until you have a good solid rose base. It might be the source of harshness you mentioned, your formula consists of a high percentage of it.
 

janmeut

Well-known member
Aug 11, 2006
Well for a simple rose accord you don't need damascenone or natural rose extracts, allthough they will improve the fragrance.

I ususaly start with the rose alcohols geraniol, citronellol (not citronellal, that is something different) and phenyl ethyl alcohol. Less important for me is nerol. This is the base frame of the rose accord. Now you can add modifiers like:
- Neryl acetate and geranyl acetate to add fruitiness
- EO cloves leaf to add a spicy note. Eugenol and iso eugenol ar possible too, but the essential oils make the fragrance more natural and smooth.
- Ionone alpha (i would use this instead of beta) and linalool to make it more floral
- Aldehydes to make it fresher and give a lift. I prefer Aldehyde C9, but other good choises in this case are C8, C10, C11 enic and C12 Lauric
- Trepanol / Rosalva is also a good aldehyde like note that has mainly the fatty/waxy aspect of an aldehyde

As naturaliser you can add
- Geranium oils, the Chinese contain more citronellol and are les minty, I prefer these
- Palmarosa oil
- Bergamot oil (only in small amounts, otherwise it will tun into a perfume instead of an accord)
- A hint of lemongrass oil or litsea cubeb oil can add a little freshness, but use only a little
- More expensive: rose EO, rose absolute

Then a simple accord:

Citronellol 400
Geraniol 250 (you can replace about 20% of it by palmarosa oil)
Phenyl ethyl alcohol 150
Geranium China 50
Alpha Ionone 30
Nerol 30
Neryl acetate 30
Linalool 20
EO Bergamot FCF 10
Oil of cloves leaf 15
Trepanol 10
Aldehyde C9 3
EO Litsea Cubeb 2
 

SculptureOfSoul

Well-known member
Jul 2, 2005
A lot of good advice up there. I just wanted to mention that Guaiacwood can also be used to emphasize the woodier aspects of rose. I don't know what proportion one would use it in with regards to synthetics though as I only work with natural materials.
 
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Indie_Guy

Well-known member
Dec 13, 2003
I'd ditch the musk ketone--it's not really something you want to use nowadays. Replace it with something like Velvione.
 

janmeut

Well-known member
Aug 11, 2006
Guaiac wood oil or guaiyl acetate can indeed be a good addition, it has some peppery, spicyelements. I would not use over 5%, probably even less.

Musk ketone is one of the four musks I use most (others are Exaltolide, Galaxolide and ethylene brassylate). The powdery effect you get with musk ketone is hard to match with other musks, maybe with exception of other nitro musks, but musk ketone is the least problematic of the nitro musks. Velvione is also a great chem, but simply not the same.
 

merry.waters

Well-known member
Jan 13, 2010
Silly idea of mine: Why bother with just resembling naturals? Etat Libre D'Orange made Jasmin Et Cigarette. It's said they made a jasmine without indoles. It's true, and makes the jasmine cheap smelling. Well.
What about composing a pure synthetic rose right to Your pleasing, being as close to 'natural' as can be. What could happen, if You then pull out the specific rose-aromas? First of all damascones and geraniol. Would an uninformed person identify the rest as the skeleton of rose? Could the lacking of being 'rose' eventually being cured by some other typical aroma? Think of a strong jasmine in that the indoles are replaced by birch tar ...
 

gido

Well-known member
May 31, 2008
thanks everybody! your input is appreciated.

janmeut, i meant citronellol, not citronellal. and again, your answer is very useful to me, and i hope to others as well.

I ususaly start with the rose alcohols geraniol, citronellol (not citronellal, that is something different) and phenyl ethyl alcohol. Less important for me is nerol. This is the base frame of the rose accord.

that is how i started. however, with just these three, the results were way too (synthetic) sharp. also more geranium than rose.

i don't have the esters you suggest for a fruity accent. is there anything else?
currently i don't have much fruity molecules, in fact i really miss them. amyl acetate is on my list for the next order.

i love the iso eugenol. i might order some cloves eo next time.

the alpha ionone i tried, but in my formula i found it too strong in a rather small dose. same for the aldehyde, but i do think that waxy note would be good in a rose.

i never really thought of bergamot, since the rose alcohols are already rather citrus-like. i will try this to see if it softens the note and makes the feel more natural.

what did you think about the other less conventional ingredients that i have put into the mix? several where just in attempt to soften and silken, make it more floral, and deep/rich. do you think a rose note with a large amount of labdanum could work in a perfume? i am afraid it would fall apart when mixed with other things in great amounts.

i would love to hear your opinion on these matters.

joxer96 thanks for the formula's. i think the iso e super did the opposite of making things harsher. i am under the impression the blend smoothened from this, it seems to work like a floraliser, plus it added a soft diffusive peppery-woody like note that fits well. maybe i should try to leave it out and see what happens.

indie_guy but.. but.. i LOVE the musk ketone! and you can still put 1.4% of it in a perfume. a few drops softened the note in a really beautiful way, without the musk becoming too apparent on its own. (only after a day on a blotter i could really detect it as a note on its own, which is not a problem to me, at this stage.. this is a learning process)

merry.waters well, i am trying to make a rose just to get a grip on how it's build. if i end up with a base that is shockingly beautiful but ultimately not a rose, i wouldn't complain. ;) i don't think i can beat nature at it's own game, or even come close, after all. i liked your idea, but i think i need to understand the rules before i can break them (in a interesting way). but you should go ahead and try.
 
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janmeut

Well-known member
Aug 11, 2006
Neryl acetate and geranyl acetate are the most common. Being creative by using only a minimum of ingredients is a great way to learn. You could add other fruity notes like fruity esters. Davana oil, Aldehyde C14 and Tagetes oil will work too.

Geranium and rose have of course a lot in common, but in case you think it is too geranium just change the balance of the rose alcohols to phenyl ethyl alcohol, this is only a minor constituent of geranium oils, but rose absolute usualy contains about 50% of it. More nerol will make it more fruity.

Iso eugenol is indeed very sophisticated and smooth, but also a well known strong allergen, stronger than for instance eugenol.

Ionones are strong indeed, but they usualy fit well into the formula. Aldehydes are easy overdosed, you could make 10% solutions and use these. A solution will also stabilise them, otherwise they tend to oxidise and polymerise in a relative short time.

Bergamot makes the fragrance fresher and more natural.

With less conventional you mean the ambers: Iso E Super, labdanum and cinnamyl alcohol? They make it a rosy amber, or ambery rose. So instead of an only rose accord you stretched it, no problem with that. Labdanum and other ambers work great with rose (like almost any fragrance material ;)).

The good think of making your own perfumes is that you even can add 10% musk ketone or more, but of course it is smart to know what the EU law and IFRA say and keep this in mind.
 

merry.waters

Well-known member
Jan 13, 2010
merry.waters well, i am trying to make a rose just to get a grip on how it's build. ... i don't think i can beat nature at it's own game, or even come close, after all.

Do You think 'rose' is beautyfull? Nature hasn't created the roses smell to please You. I'm pretty sure the human olfactory system would appriciate some other smells as well as rose. As an indication take the contemporary so called gourmand fragrances.
My silly idea of replacing the jamines indoles with tar might have been realized with Morabito Or Black. It is not about breaking rules, but about creation.

Have Fun
 

parker25mv

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2016
it is not unsatisfying for a second experiment by an absolute beginner, it does have a smell related to rose.
however, i still want it to be more velvety rose petal soft, and it could be richer too. what are your suggestions?
If you want the truly nice smelling part of rose, you pretty much need Beta-damascone. There's no way around this.
It smells very "jammy", transparent, and beautiful.

(There are also a handful of other aromachemicals with damascone-like effects, but that's a subject for another topic)

A thread with some more of my personal thoughts about this here:
"Guide to Rose accord"
http://www.basenotes.net/threads/475577-Guide-to-Rose-accord

Also, Phenoxonal is a very useful for one for adding rose oil like effects. Strangely it smells similar in one type of way to citronellol, and in another way kind of has an effect similar to phenyl ethyl alcohol. But Phenoxonal is best used alongside citronellol and phenyl ethyl alcohol; you really shouldn't completely substitute it for them, because Phenoxonal is darker and flatter in feeling.

C-9 aldehyde can help add a waxy rose petal effect. Use in moderation, because it will also add brightness and "sparkle" effect.
 

Devil's Son In Law

Basenotes Plus
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Dec 17, 2018
i still want it to be more velvety rose petal soft, and it could be richer too.

To me, you are off to a good start But I think your proportions are out of wack. And maybe think about making a good rose accord first. Then if you want to achieve the velvety nuances, then make a "velvet" accord with the base materials you mentioned... labdanum is definitely not part of a rose aroma, but I love it. Because my question is, are you making a rose accord or trying to make a final perfume composition? Maybe think of the accords separately and then put them together for a final composition to achieve the "velvet" effect.

So a Damask rose from Iran for example looks like this if you analyze it in a CGMS...

PHENYL ETHYL ALCOHOL - 78.4%
CITRONELLOL COEUR (IFF) - 9.9%
NEROL 900 (IFF) - 4.88%
Geraniol (95) - 3.7%
Nerolidol - 3%
GERANYL ACETONE - 0.07%
Damascone Beta - 0.05%

(Materials here are at 100%. I don't dilute materials to make a final fragrance unless the material is difficult to work with or hard to dilute.)

Now add on a "velvet" accord of ISO E super, labdanum, cashmeran, patchouli, some musks (galaxolide, exaltolide, tonalide for example).

If you want a "fresh rose" instead, add a "citrus fresh" accord of Limonene D, Lime EO, Linanyl Acetate, Aldehyde C-14, etc.

Candy rose... ethyl maltol, Aldehyde C-16, raspberry ketone, etc.

So I suggest getting the rose down, then put it in different settings... dark, fresh, oud, ocean, tropical, whatever you want.
 
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parker25mv

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2016
GERANYL ACETONE - 0.07%
Benzyl acetone is an interesting material that can probably give effects sort of like geranyl acetone, since geranyl acetone can be hard to find.

(Not saying they smell the same, but with geraniol (and perhaps even geranyl acetate) already in the formula, it may not be too much of an issue)
 

parker25mv

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2016
As I described in that other thread, "rose-type" smells basically fall into four different categories:
There's the "Beta-damscone" group, the "Geraniol & Citronellol" group, the "Rose Oxide" group, and the "Phenyl Ethyl Alcohol" group.
Each of these groups smells like "rose" but they all smell like rose in a completely different way; they are different aspects of rose, the different type of notes that make up a rose smell.

I hope that type of explanation helps some of you understand things better.

Depending on what "type" (or variety) of rose scent you want, you might use more or less of some of these categories than others.


To make things even more complicated, there can be additional aspects to the smell of rose that these four main groups do not completely cover. (Like geranyl acetone has an additional effect that would place it partially outside those groups) But I will just leave you with that for now.
 

perfumum

Well-known member
Jun 28, 2016
Benzyl acetone is an interesting material that can probably give effects sort of like geranyl acetone, since geranyl acetone can be hard to find.

(Not saying they smell the same, but with geraniol (and perhaps even geranyl acetate) already in the formula, it may not be too much of an issue)

If you are not saying that they smell the same, why would you suggest substituting them? Benzyl acetone is just as hard to find as geranyl acetone - not that either are hard to find, but still. Do you have Benzyl acetone, Parker? Presumably it is not news to you that the acetone functional group is less important here than the benzyl vs geranyl?
 

Devil's Son In Law

Basenotes Plus
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Dec 17, 2018

Bill Roberts

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2013
Seeing the quoted material:

I suspect you are seeing a hypothesis unsupported by anything but speculation and the author lacks one or both materials, as that's often the case with this poster. Even when the text would lead you to think that experienced knowledge is being provided. In this case though there is, for perhaps the first time, at least the disclaimer of "probably." So, when familiar with he poster the bet would have to be, even if not having the materials oneself either, it's just more unfounded speculation and nothing more. Not even informed speculation. There was no basis to claim "probable."

I do have both materials though, though the geranyl acetone only as a material I ordered at work for a non-perfuming reason and haven't felt motivated to try in perfuming, and don't at all consider one as a similar-performing replacement for the other. They just are not, flat out fact.

Checking TGSC, benzyl acetone is in only 16 demo formulas, and geranyl acetone something like four or six. So one will hardly ever need either because of being in a published formula one wants to try.

I have tried benzyl acetone only as ideas of getting a somewhat benzyl acetate (though harsher) effect for longer and never kept it in any finished work. Based on experience so far I will be surprised if I ever use it in a final formula.

Smelling the geranyl acetone right now, as it happened to be only 2 feet from my work desk, now I am thinking I'll take some home, it's pretty interesting. And certainly not like benzyl acetone. By no means.

I can absolutely see using geranyl acetone in a rose accord. Personally I would NEVER use benzyl acetone in a rose accord unless perhaps a rose-plus-other-floral accord. I would be dragged to hell screaming before doing so, pretty much. Ridiculous suggestion.

And as to why suggest one hard-to-get material as a replacement for another hard-to-get material, having never smelled at least one of them, is beyond comprehension for me: something is going on that is so far removed from my ways of doing things that I just can't even grasp the mental process involved. It cannot help anyone, it can only send them astray. And does repeatedly, unless someone steps to the plate to correct the unfounded misinformation.

If one doesn't know, then why not just not post it in the first place, or ask it as a question, or make clear one hasn't even smelled the things, and if just speculating particularly when with little to no foundation, make clear just what the basis is for the speculation.

Jeez I wish I didn't see quoted material of the few I've decided I do not wish to read, which for varying reasons I decide the content is a net negative for me personally. How much time it can exhaust when seeing these things.

Of course, one might say, "Leave alone the knowledgeably-presented misinformation that you see, if you're going to spend that much time trying to straighten it out," but I have been helped too many times by others taking the time to correct misinformation to feel right doing that and potentially leaving others trusting or giving credit to utter nonsense. I of course don't go around correcting it all over the Internet, wouldn't even remotely want to do that, but in a forum important to me, I will try in those cases where I do know.
 
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Bill Roberts

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2013
Tct.

So a Damask rose from Iran for example looks like this if you analyze it in a CGMS...

PHENYL ETHYL ALCOHOL - 78.4%
CITRONELLOL COEUR (IFF) - 9.9%
NEROL 900 (IFF) - 4.88%
Geraniol (95) - 3.7%
Nerolidol - 3%
GERANYL ACETONE - 0.07%
Damascone Beta - 0.05%

Important to note that Devil's did not say that one needs to or is advised to use geranyl acetone. He provided sort of the GC/MS including a number of materials. I say "sort of" because of course a GC/MS does not specify manufacturers. I take it that the manufacturers and material names were provided as being suggested materials to use.

One always, or almost all cases anyway, decides whether a material included in a GC/MS is to be included in one's formula inspired by it, or omitted due to being probably or sometimes obviously not needed.

As opinion, 0.07% geranyl acetone would be of minimal significance. I would hardly go buy it for the sake of including that trace.
 

Devil's Son In Law

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 17, 2018
a GC/MS does not specify manufacturers. I take it that the manufacturers and material names were provided as being suggested materials to use.

Correct, the manufacturer names are there only because I copied this straight from my own spreadsheet/database where I keep my accords and GSMS collection. These are simply the specific materials that I own that represent the chemicals in the Damask rose from an academic paper by an Iranian university. It was difficult to copy the analysis straight out of the PDF because it was in narrative format rather than a table.

And for gee whiz, here is how I translated the GCMS into an accord and ratios. The ratios do not correspond to the GCMS exactly, but of course this is just my interpretation. And I'll also tweak it further in the final composition with the other accords and materials.

PHENYL ETHYL ALCOHOL.........1000
CITRONELLOL COEUR (IFF)........200
NEROL 900 (IFF)............................100
Geraniol (95).....................................70
Nerolidol...........................................50
GERANYL ACETONE.......................7
Damascone Beta...............................5

After I place this accord in a composition, I'd look at the percentage of each material in both the concentrate and the final finished perfume. Then I might tweak some levels. My own bias is that I really like the tobacco note I get from beta damascone. Of course it is quite restricted by IFRA, so I often boost it as high as it can go. In most roses, nature has the level of beta damascone very low as well. I'm also glad the 49th IFRA ammendment relaxed the beta damascone restriction a little.

And conversely rose oxide (not in this accord), I perceive as most do... very metallic and sharp. It also has a very low threshold for detection so I keep it very low if I use it in a rose accord. Same as nature does, it's usually at minute levels in roses. But I just don't like rose oxide as much as beta damascone so unlike the new Tom Ford "Rose Prick", I don't accentuate the rose oxide. Personal preference.

Anyway, nature is just a guide. Roses have a basis in reality, but orchids do not. So its enjoyable to sometimes do photo realism, and sometimes frankenstein's monster.
 
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pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
PHENYL ETHYL ALCOHOL.........1000
At 70% PEA, that's very high... But I have certainly bought what was supposed to be a real rose abs at 80%, and then threw it out because I couldn't stand it, and thought it had been faked.

Was part of a rose group buy.
An all Natural perfume person was doing the buy. She got the shipment in, sent me a sample. She decided she didn't like it. sent it back. I thought it was a graceful open rose, to me quite nice as a rose option. What they sent back was 80% PEA, and she loved it. I got my portion I purchased, smelled it, and tossed it.
 

Devil's Son In Law

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Dec 17, 2018
What they sent back was 80% PEA, and she loved it. I got my portion I purchased, smelled it, and tossed it.

That's interesting. So you prefer a citronellol prominent rose? I usually prefer PEA prominent. The Damask example earlier was just one specific rose species. I normally lean towards a Bulganin accord with a percentage of Bulgarian ABS.

Its interesting to study roses around the world because they are so different. I've seen a paper on species in India that have values all over the place. See attached. These species were extremely low in PEA. Another table in that paper has a group of PEA dominant Indian roses. Some even had high levels of patchouli alcohol.

Also of interest is the "Fars 2"... 39% linalool. Sounds more like lavender.

Rose india.jpg
 

pkiler

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Dec 5, 2007
What I don't like is perfumes that are hyper sweet and cloying.

I hate vanillin, hate stupid perfumes with a ton of maltol, and hate a preponderance of sweet PEA in Rose. They all make me gag...
 

Devil's Son In Law

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Dec 17, 2018
hate a preponderance of sweet PEA in Rose. They all make me gag...

I see your point. I have been on a journey to experiment with all these difference rose species and create the "perfect rose accords" if they exist. I have been annoyed by some rose fragrances I've made and maybe I'm not as in love with PEA as I thought I was. I need to think about this and reevaluate maybe.
 

Bkkorn

Well-known member
Feb 21, 2020
This is what always confused the heck out of me. All the "different" types of roses, from different parts of the world, and what they consist of under analysis.

For the most part, i always thought i could get by with just using 3 basic ingredients of Citronellol, PEA and geraniol for a simple generic "rose like" accord. And then you can add in more things to tweak it to your liking. But when i see information and charts that show some roses don't even contain PEA, or some unusually high in Linalool with no geraniol....it really boogles my mind if there is such a thing as a "generic rose accord".

right now, i just use something simple like:

Citronellol - 387
PEA - 387
Geraniol - 226
Total - 1000

And to me, it smells like a rose. Which KIND of rose, i have no idea.....and to some it may have too much PEA, or too much Geraniol. But im thinking that it really comes down to personal preference, and i should stop chasing down this "generic rose" accord.....because a rose is so all over the place in terms of smell.

Some days i feel like im chasing something that might never be caught, or its always up to interpretation and preference.
 

Devil's Son In Law

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Dec 17, 2018
Some days i feel like im chasing something that might never be caught, or its always up to interpretation and preference.

Well said, I feel that. But here's my standard "go to" rose that I based on a study by Leffingwell... (seems to be very close to Turkish rose otto)

CITRONELLOL COEUR (IFF) .....300
Aldehyde C-16 (Strawberry) ........(due to presence of C14-C16 carbon paraffins; set between 150 and 0 depending if a candy note is desired)
Geraniol (Natural) ........................100
NEROL 900 (IFF) ..........................50
PHENYL ETHYL ALCOHOL .........20 (lately I've pushed this up like Bulgarian rose ABS but this is my original PEA level)
Eugenol .........................................20
Linalool .........................................15 (if you push this high and add linalyl acetate, you have lavender)
Hydroxycitronellal .........................10
Farnesol (Symrise) .......................10 (I like this chem, it is big in honeysuckle)
Rose Oxide (racemic) ....................5 (I don't like, metallic)
Carvone-L ......................................3
BETA IONONE NATURAL .............2 (boosting this gives more berry)
Damascone Beta ...........................1 (I love but nature keeps it low, great tobacco)

Its' when I want a "photo realistic" rose and I can also whittle it down closer to what you are saying. It just depends on the context of the overall composition. Lately I've been leaning to a higher PEA level, and like Paul said, maybe its too sweet and I'm not being objective. So I'm going to remake this and some others and see what happens. I'm trying to learn nature, and then break the laws of nature. And make some weird as hell roses along with some old school classics.

But Bkkorn, yeah, I'm going to make yours and check it out. I'm sure its a cool, minimalist rose. If it works, it works. Just depends on what you are after.
 

neroli1970

Well-known member
Jan 28, 2020
But when i see information and charts that show some roses don't even contain PEA, or some unusually high in Linalool with no geraniol....

How much PEA is in a "rose" oil depends on what kind of rose oil you are talking about AND the extraction process. Rose absolutes generally have high PEA. Rosa damascena absolute has over 70% PEA while Rosa centifolia absolute can be around 50%.

Rose Otto, Rosa damascena (steam-distilled rose) and other steam-distilled varieties generally have low PEA, under 2%.

Then there are the CO2 extracts which will have different chemical profiles compared to the absolutes.
 

Devil's Son In Law

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Dec 17, 2018
Rose Otto, Rosa damascena (steam-distilled rose) and other steam-distilled varieties generally have low PEA, under 2%.

Perfect! Yes, thank you for mentioning. I was trying to say that smelling a rose on a vine is different than smelling the distilled oil or extracted absolute. Different levels of the chemicals.

You can easily see this on Eden Botannicals web site. They publish a COA for most materials. The rose ottos and oils versus the absolutes are much different.
 

neroli1970

Well-known member
Jan 28, 2020
You can easily see this on Eden Botannicals web site. They publish a COA for most materials. The rose ottos and oils versus the absolutes are much different.

You should take a look at the Nature's Gift website and look at the different rose options they offer. My favorite is the Rose Alba CO2 extract. Lower PEA content than the absolute which solves that issue Paul has with the overly sweet, cloying aspect IMO. Lovely rose specimen but DAMN it is costly.
 
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Devil's Son In Law

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Dec 17, 2018
You should take a look at the Nature's Gift website and look at the different rose options they offer. My favorite is the Rose Alba CO2 extract. Lower PEA content than the absolute which solves that issue the Paul has with the overly sweet, cloying aspect IMO. Lovely rose specimen but DAMN it is costly.

Cool tip, I did and thanks. Its cool that they publish a COA for each batch. And this is expensive but cheaper than the white rose otto from Eden Botannicals. Definitely good to use a little of this, and boost it with a synth accord.
 

parker25mv

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2016
My favorite is the Rose Alba CO2 extract. Lower PEA content than the absolute which solves that issue Paul has with the overly sweet, cloying aspect IMO.
Phenoxanol is an alternative that can be used to replace some of the PEA content (maybe up to 40% or 50%) and gives the impression of high quality rose oil.

(It also acts as a citronellol analogue, so less citronellol should be used, if it is used)
 

pkiler

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Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
This is a little comparative analysis card that I use when I teach a student about florals.
Not that this has perfect formulas, nor does it have some of the key ingredients germane to some florals, (e.g. citronellol for Rose, linalool in almost everything...),
BUT, it does show a way to visualize the differences and emphases between floral types as a general idea.

It may help someone grasp these in a larger pattern recognition based context easier, and then one can drill down to each species version to work on it.

Floral Fragrance Accord Comparisons of Chemicals used on PK Page.jpg
 

Bkkorn

Well-known member
Feb 21, 2020
This is a little comparative analysis card that I use when I teach a student about florals.
Not that this has perfect formulas, nor does it have some of the key ingredients germane to some florals, (e.g. citronellol for Rose),
BUT, it does show a way to visualize the differences and emphases between floral types as a general idea.

It may help someone grasp these in a larger pattern recognition based context easier, and then one can drill down to each species version to work on it.

View attachment 123448

I LIKE this chart!

But i see no "citronellOl" on it. Is there a reason for that? I always thought that was a key player in a rose scent? (sorry for the Noob question)
 

parker25mv

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2016
I LIKE this chart!

But i see no "citronellOl" on it. Is there a reason for that?
There are probably additional ingredients in the formula that the chart does not cover. The chart is just a comparison of relative ratios for a handful of selected materials, that are common to all.
That chart should not be taken to imply complete formulas for each of those floral smells.
 

Devil's Son In Law

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 17, 2018
nor does it have some of the key ingredients germane to some florals, (e.g. citronellol for Rose, linalool in almost everything...)

Yep, Bkkorn, he said it omits a few things that are specific to individual florals. This is showing the inter-relationship these common chemicals have and the varying levels in the species. That's how I see it.

Plus I like how the eugenol level in the carnation is right in line with the average 60% you find in nature. Mother Nature doesn't give a &%#$ about IFRA.

Yeah, and linalool is the dominant in neroli, lavender and orange flower.
 

Bill Roberts

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2013
I do have both materials [geranyl acetone and benzyl acetone] though, though the geranyl acetone only as a material I ordered at work for a non-perfuming reason and haven't felt motivated to try in perfuming, and don't at all consider one as a similar-performing replacement for the other. They just are not, flat out fact.

...Smelling the geranyl acetone right now, as it happened to be only 2 feet from my work desk, now I am thinking I'll take some home, it's pretty interesting. And certainly not like benzyl acetone. By no means.

I can absolutely see using geranyl acetone in a rose accord.

I wanted to reply with an update, having gotten familiar with it for a non-perfuming reason, I now am quite interested in it for perfumery. A nice clean green mid note that I don't have anything else directly doing quite the same.

That said, as it's not offered retail in the US, and it appears in few demo formulas and certainly perfuming life went on fine without it, I'm not advocating US customers to necessarily go buy. But if able to get a sample free or cheap, it could be a good idea. For our UK friends, Pell Wall have it. (And of course one can purchase from them pretty much worldwide but I would say do so only when getting other things at the same time anyway due to per-order and shipping costs.)

On the original thread topic, while as of the moment I wouldn't grab this material for a "photo-realistic" rose accord, I certainly might for a fantasy that I wanted on the greenish side.
 

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