Black hemlock absolute sourcing and refining

[tensor9]

Alright, black hemlock absolute (BHA) is the core of a fragrance I have in development right now.

The problem, though it is rather strong by itself, it gets swamped in blend. I can either try to develop a BHA base or try to give it some more oomph via processing, or preferably find an alternate supplier

I got my material from PFA. Their SDS is from Cedarome, but their website says it is sourced from PAN. I don’t know if this is a resell situation or truly a different supplier.

As a possibly instructive aside, blue hemlock absolute from Hermitage is a transparent liquid. A different species I know, but is there a fancy, more careful extraction method they use?

I have noticed that a substantial (though at this point unquantified) proportion of the material is low odor waxy material. I discovered this by placing a glob (this stuff is thick and sticky at room temp) on a test strip and letting it sit for a few weeks. What remained was a very faintly odored green wax.

This got me thinking: if I could reduce the portion of low odor wax in the material, I could increase the odor impact per gram of material, hopefully without shifting the odor profile too much.

As a chemist, the seemingly most straightforward way to do this would be to reextract the material with a high(er) water content ethanol, which would help exclude high molecular weight waxes because of their lower solubility in the more polar high-water ethanol. Again, hopefully without also excluding other important aromachemicals.

So, any input, especially prior experience-based, regarding the sourcing or processing of black hemlock absolute would be appreciated.

 

[ourmess]

Their SDS is from Cedarome, but their website says it is sourced from PAN. I don’t know if this is a resell situation or truly a different supplier.

If it helps, PAN / PAN Aromatics is Perfumer's Apprentice - it's "Perfumer’s Apprentice Natural Aromatics".

 

[tensor9]

That does help, actually. It comes from Cedarome.

Thanks

 

[pkiler]

Have you tried to let the finished diluted perfume sit in a beaker for a month?
Pic below is the settled Cocoa absolute, in the perfume concentrate.

 

[tensor9]

Hmm, no but I have made 50% and 33% solutions in ethanol and put them in the freezer for a couple days. I got substantial precipitation from the 50% and not much from the 33, from memory anyway.

Perhaps I could play with this method.

There was some cloudiness but not as much as I would have expected to make a substantial difference.

 

[tensor9]

Would it be easier to get a hold of the concrete and use a modified process starting with it?

 

[Quay Limey]

What's the batch/lot number of your product?

I have the same material from the same supplier and, like you, created a fragrance with it at the forefront. I don't really have the issues you're describing, instead finding it quite dominant and noticeable thoughout, so I'm curious if there's a problem due to batch variation.

I don't really get anything dropping out of solution at 50% in TEC or ethanol.

My batch/lot is 73033.

 

[Quay Limey]

?!

☺️

 

[tensor9]

What's the batch/lot number of your product?

I have the same material from the same supplier and, like you, created a fragrance with it at the forefront. I don't really have the issues you're describing, instead finding it quite dominant and noticeable thoughout, so I'm curious if there's a problem due to batch variation.

I don't really get anything dropping out of solution at 50% in TEC or ethanol.

My batch/lot is 73033.

This was in the freezer, possibly with a little water added. But it was a while back so my memory is fuzzy.

Regardless. This is a substantial quantity of low-odor waxy fluff in there that I’d love to get rid of. I’ve thought about finding someone to SC-CO2 extract some concrete (or raw twigs and leaves if I could get my hands on some). But that is quite the nuclear option. I would love for it to look like the blue hemlock abs I have.

If I had the time and lab space, I’d really work on the extraction fine tuning myself.

 

[Quay Limey]

Sounds quite different from the stuff I have. Nothing waxy in it at all and its totally solid-free when blended, which is why I was curious as to your batch/lot number so I could avoid it in future. I quite like the dark colour - turns the perfume a lovely green shade, especially when blending with oakmoss and friends.

But making your own is a nice option to have. You have it good in the US when it comes to using your own homegrown materials. I'm quite envious.

 

[tensor9]

Put a nice glob on a scent strip or something and let it set for 2+ weeks.
You'll notice almost all of the scent is gone but the majority of the glob still remains.

 

[Solua Botanica]

Put a nice glob on a scent strip or something and let it set for 2+ weeks.
You'll notice almost all of the scent is gone but the majority of the glob still remains.

Sounds like you have an 'absolute' with a lot of concrete left in it.
I make black and blue hemlock abs. with hexane and it took me a few trials to get it right.
The wax from northern conifers is very dense and grease like.
When you have the leftover waxes from washing your concrete, you can see them develop white crystalline fluff all over the matrix.
My guess is that there are a lot of aroma compounds still hidden in the core of the thick heavy wax.
But for your batch, I am not sure what could cause this...maybe freezing, maybe age, maybe a batch that wasn't washed and separated all the way.

I don't know what part of the US you live in, but this tree is so plentiful where it grows. It is not a very accessible tree, you'll need tall ladders.
I pick mine from the ground after the loggers are gone and leave all this precious material behind !

 

[tensor9]

Thanks for this reply!

I got mine from PA, who gets theres supposedly from Cedarome, though I’m. It positive about this particular batch.

How thick and viscous are your absolutes?

I have to heat my black hemlock to work with it, but it’s not as bad as my balsam fir abs (which is basically a solid paste). As I said earlier, the blue hemlock abs from Hermitage is clear and free flowing and only faintly colored.

 

[Solua Botanica]

How thick and viscous are your absolutes?

Very thick, forget the pipette and get your spatula kinda thick... and since I don't like rewarming my materials too many times, I usually dilute to 50 % where it's 'workable'.
Cool temp. really thickens it, so even diluted, I keep it above the fridge. Same with fir balsam abs.
These resinous tree absolutes also vary a little bit from year to year. I've found that really cold winters are good for scent concentration.

 

[Quay Limey]

Put a nice glob on a scent strip or something and let it set for 2+ weeks.
You'll notice almost all of the scent is gone but the majority of the glob still remains.

Upon receiving my BHA I smeared a small amount neat on a strip but only to mop up the stuff on the threads after pouring. That stayed around on the strip for quite some time, certainly longer than a month. All the time it was giving off a jammy raspberry woody scent that was detectable around two meters away. It was quite close to my lit stove so that probably helped it waft all over the place. It lasted a very long time in this fruity state until I returned one day to find it had a lovely dry woody scent similar to that you get in a saw mill producing finished boards etc. Off the top of my head I think it was around 6 months.

I probably don’t need to tell you this but assessing a resinous product in a neat state on a strip is not going to reveal its performance in use or even tell you much about its true nature. I dilute mine at 50% in TEC for piping and it never drops out of solution or causes any issues. I reckon you have a dodgy batch because it reads like yours is a far cry from the beautiful product I have.

 

[Filipsson]

A bit of a side note perhaps, but I am doing a search to try to read out the difference between Blue Hemlock absolute (which I have) and Black Hemlock absolute (which is a bit harder to come by). Both seem to be sourced from Tsuga Canadensis. can anyone put the differences and similarities into text?
/Pelle

 

[tensor9]

A bit of a side note perhaps, but I am doing a search to try to read out the difference between Blue Hemlock absolute (which I have) and Black Hemlock absolute (which is a bit harder to come by). Both seem to be sourced from Tsuga Canadensis. can anyone put the differences and similarities into text?
/Pelle

They are different species.

Black hemlock is tsuga mertensian
Blue hemlock is tsuga canadensis

Availability is the opposite here. To my knowledge, there are no NA resellers of Blue Hemlock Abs (though I suspect that Cedarome produces it). You can get Black Hemlock pretty easily.

But to muddy the waters a bit, some sources do refer to Black Hemlock as tsuga canadensis, and the SDS on PA's site does refer to this as spruce oil, which is not clear.

My Black Hemlock is thick, very viscous, opaque green. It's sweet, balsamic, fruity, a bit leathery and woody on the bottom. The black hemlock lasts forever.

My Blue Hemlock is thin, free flowing, clear, and almost colorless. It's smoky, spicy, much more woody with only slight fruit nuances, only a little sweet. This is more of a heart note.

And for more information that may interest you, my Black Spruce absolute (from Eden, Picea mariana) is most similar to Black Hemlock, but is not quite as sweet, maybe more woody but still fruity and balsamic and has similar physical properties

I'm going to email PA and verify what species of tree I have in my bottle!

I much prefer these to balsam fir because they lack the dry coumarin like undertone.

 

[Solua Botanica]

I have to agree that there is a lot of confusion about different species of the spruce/hemlock families.
Latin names have changed over the years and some people still read old books and documentation (like me) it can be confusing I have to admit.
I've seen them named Abies, Picea and Tsuga. Botanists have clarified a few things over the years, and it is now commonly accepted that Abies is Fir, Picea is Spruce and Tsuga is Hemlock.
Having walked the woods of North America quite a lot, and having a strong interest in botany, I went down the rabbit hole and it made me even more confused, until I spoke with a forestry professional that cleared it up for me.
Spruce and hemlock are very similar needle wise, it is the bark that tells me which tree I'm looking at.
Hemlock has a more flaky and pine like of a bark. I recognize the blue and black by the shade of green of the needles. Blue and Black as it says....
I find the black hemlock to be more widespread in all kinds of terrain, almost all the way north to the start of the boreal forest.
The blue is less common, in patches on high mountains and ridges.
Tensor9 just gave a really nice and clear description of the different products. I have to say it matches what I have.

 

[tensor9]

While we're at it, let's talk about cypress absolute (from cupressus sempervirens).

This stuff is interesting. Thicker, stickier than Black Hemlock abs, but not as thick, sticky as balsam fir abs. It is VERY sweet, balsamic, POWERFUL stuff, much more so than than the others, and quite distinct from the others in smell. It's really interesting.

You can get it from Lvnea or Perfumer's World, and it used to be available from Hermitage.

 

[Solua Botanica]

This stuff is interesting. Thicker, stickier than Black Hemlock abs, but not as thick, sticky as balsam fir abs. It is VERY sweet, balsamic, POWERFUL stuff, much more so than than the others, and quite distinct from the others in smell. It's really interesting.

I want some of that... sounds amazing. I've only seen the tree once, it was an amazing 150 year old bonsai.

 

[tensor9]

I want some of that... sounds amazing. I've only seen the tree once, it was an amazing 150 year old bonsai.

CYPRESS | Absolute

Cypress absolute is extracted from the leaves of Cupressus sempervirens, the Mediterranean cypress (also known as Italian cypress, Tuscan cypress, or Persian cypress), a species of cypress native to the eastern Mediterranean region. The absolute is a very thick, green liquid with a green...

www.lvnea.com

They're based in Canada, too!

 

[Solua Botanica]

thanks, I'll check them out !

 

[Filipsson]

They are different species.

Black hemlock is tsuga mertensian
Blue hemlock is tsuga canadensis

Availability is the opposite here. To my knowledge, there are no NA resellers of Blue Hemlock Abs (though I suspect that Cedarome produces it). You can get Black Hemlock pretty easily.

But to muddy the waters a bit, some sources do refer to Black Hemlock as tsuga canadensis, and the SDS on PA's site does refer to this as spruce oil, which is not clear.

My Black Hemlock is thick, very viscous, opaque green. It's sweet, balsamic, fruity, a bit leathery and woody on the bottom. The black hemlock lasts forever.

My Blue Hemlock is thin, free flowing, clear, and almost colorless. It's smoky, spicy, much more woody with only slight fruit nuances, only a little sweet. This is more of a heart note.

And for more information that may interest you, my Black Spruce absolute (from Eden, Picea mariana) is most similar to Black Hemlock, but is not quite as sweet, maybe more woody but still fruity and balsamic and has similar physical properties

I'm going to email PA and verify what species of tree I have in my bottle!

I much prefer these to balsam fir because they lack the dry coumarin like undertone.

Interesting, thanks. I have only found Blue Hemlock in my searches, and is what I have on my shelf. Bought here:

Blue Hemlock Absolute for Natural Perfumery from hermitageoils.com

Blue hemlock absolute is bursting with fruit rich, mouth-watering, juicy berry goodness, sprinkled with zappy resinous woody qualities.

hermitageoils.com

It is close to Fir Balsam in character, quite sweet in its most dominant note, and delightfully complex. Latey, I have come to use them both in a wide accord, where blue hemlock is dominant, since it is a little less sweet and has more of a woody character, whereas my Fir balsam is more straightforward in its sweetness.

The reason for my question is really how the character of Black Hemlock would be in comparison. That is, is it worth to buy it - I cant find any european suppliers, so there is an extra cost for transport and customs.

/Pelle

 

[tensor9]

I can tell you that it is much sweeter than blue hemlock, much longer lasting and very different in smell.

Whether it’s worth it is up to you.

 

[Quay Limey]

As this discussion has expanded...

If you're into these kind of materials, which a few of you clearly are, I recommend Pine Needle Absolute Super from Firmenich for something a little different.

 

[tensor9]

Would love to try this. I have some Fir Needle Abs. from Hermitage, but I must admit it is very quiet. Smells good, but there's just not a whole lot there.

 

[Quay Limey]

I believe Harry still has some in stock.

I had some from a previous batch that had a nice sharp aspect that seems to be lacking in the batch I got for compounding, so much so I shelved the perfume until the material has had time to mature a bit. It might be that it never turns into the same aroma but that's the only downside to using naturals I guess.

Either way it's a lovely material but can be quite soft and almost herbal in use. It doesn't blend with things like black hemlock or fir absolute as they seem to trounce it with their fruity aspects, but couple it with something like patchouli and/or oakmoss type accords and it really is quite awesome. Goes really well with elemi and certain olibanum materials.

 

[tensor9]

I received a 50% balsam fir abs (Biolandes) from PSH today, and I must say I'm surprised.

This smells completely different than Cedarome/EB material. It's mainly woody, smoky, but not nearly as sweet and balsamic. It's lovely, but quite different.

I honestly would treat this as a completely different material!

 

[pkiler]

I received a 50% balsam fir abs (Biolandes) from PSH today, I honestly would treat this as a completely different material!

Which is why I advocate getting naturals from different sources.

 

[Solua Botanica]

I have the Biolandes one also and I have to agree that the sweet aspect is not there.
Very foresty, I like it also but I dont find it as versatile as some of my other sweeter absolutes, I use it to create the feeling of a walk in the northern forests.
It stays into the dry down quite nicely, where I think this material shines.

 

[tensor9]

I have the Biolandes one also and I have to agree that the sweet aspect is not there.
Very foresty, I like it also but I dont find it as versatile as some of my other sweeter absolutes, I use it to create the feeling of a walk in the northern forests.
It stays into the dry down quite nicely, where I think this material shines.

Absolutely! I agree. Foresty, beautiful really. It complements the sweeter material quite well though.

I'll probably use both.