Benzoin and projection

[flagellum]

Hi all

A question: I really love benzoin und would like to create something simple where it practically stands alone, but benzoin tends to flatten the perfume, everyone says. My question is, does it suppress the other notes but can still project or won´t it project at all even when standing alone?

Thank you in advance

 

[hclivess]

If concerned, you should probably use some diffusive musk like Ambrette, Galaxolide or Iso E Super. Then you will get a lot of projection. As for the flattening effect, it's all about blending. Change ratio and evaluate with your nose.

Benzoin goes well with vanilla, vanillin, ethyl vanillin, cinnamon and coumarin. At least those are my favorite combos.

 

[flagellum]

If concerned, you should probably use some diffusive musk like Ambrette, Galaxolide or Iso E Super. Then you will get a lot of projection. As for the flattening effect, it's all about blending. Change ratio and evaluate with your nose.

Benzoin goes well with vanilla, vanillin, ethyl vanillin, cinnamon and coumarin. At least those are my favorite combos.

Hi there. Thank you for your reply. Of course I will add something diffusive, most probably IES. My question is, since it is supposed to flatten everything and will actually be a soliflore -well, almost, since IES will be in the mixture- is if it will project at all, but you´ve already answered that. Thank you again for your reply!

 

[Casper_grassy]

Adding any of those things mentioned above won’t make your Benzoin any more diffusive than it already is.

You can’t change what it does but you can add things to give the impression of it though.

You can add the main constituents of most Benzoin using their isolates, such as Benzoic and Cinnamic Acid, Cinnamyl Cinnamate and Vanillin. But you would still have to make it a perfume. You can absolutely add the mentions Ambrette, IES and Galaxolide, however just know what they’ll do upon addition.

You can add some Peru Balsam, Cinnamaldehyde and Guaiacol to stay consistent, but there’s tons of additions to make it feel entirely made up of benzoin, but don’t think you’re just going to change it’s inherent performance.

 

[flagellum]

Adding any of those things mentioned above won’t make your Benzoin any more diffusive than it already is.

You can’t change what it does but you can add things to give the impression of it though.

You can add the main constituents of most Benzoin using their isolates, such as Benzoic and Cinnamic Acid, Cinnamyl Cinnamate and Vanillin. But you would still have to make it a perfume. You can absolutely add the mentions Ambrette, IES and Galaxolide, however just know what they’ll do upon addition.

You can add some Peru Balsam, Cinnamaldehyde and Guaiacol to stay consistent, but there’s tons of additions to make it feel entirely made up of benzoin, but don’t think you’re just going to change it’s inherent performance.

Hi and thank you! So you mean that my benzoin will remain flat no matter what I do, I have to reconstitute it, right? That´s a shame but I have to accept mother nature and do the best I can. Thank you again.

 

[Emanuel76]

Adding any of those things mentioned above won’t make your Benzoin any more diffusive than it already is.

So, the musks are not able to enforce their texture and difusiveness to other materials?

 

[Casper_grassy]

Hi and thank you! So you mean that my benzoin will remain flat no matter what I do, I have to reconstitute it, right? That´s a shame but I have to accept mother nature and do the best I can. Thank you again.

Essentially yes. You can however make it appear to be far from flat.

I posted a while back a small formula to make Vetiver appear much stronger than it is. It is entirely possible to do this with Benzoin.

 

[Casper_grassy]

So, the musks are not able to enforce their texture and difusiveness to other materials?

Yeah they can, but because they’re added and have certain properties doesn’t mean it’s just going to bring everything with it.

 

[flagellum]

Yeah they can, but because they’re added and have certain properties doesn’t mean it’s just going to bring everything with it.

I am so sorry to hear this, it confirms my worst fears. I do not even mind the stickiness of my absolute. I just wanted to bring out its character. I am horribly sorry it just won´t work. I hate Galaxolide, I would have settled for some IES, but even that won´t work, like you are saying.

Thanks anyway

 

[Casper_grassy]

I am so sorry to hear this, it confirms my worst fears. I do not even mind the stickiness of my absolute. I just wanted to bring out its character. I am horribly sorry it just won´t work. I hate Galaxolide, I would have settled for some IES, but even that won´t work, like you are saying.

Thanks anyway

You can bring out its character by using other things. IES will help with projection but you’ll smell IES, it might help give the appearance of your benzoin smelling a bit more pronounced though but it’s going to interact with it.
If you want it to stand out you have to use other things to make it more apparent.

Galaxolide is a wonderful musk and is super versatile, you can’t think of every material as an individual, but how they interact.

 

[ourmess]

I just wanted to bring out its character. I am horribly sorry it just won´t work.

I kinda feel like you're missing the basic concept here though: your benzoin will behave like benzoin, and have the characteristics of benzoin, because...it's benzoin. If you want a fragrance that's benzoin-focused but has different properties, then you need to start with benzoin and then add other materials which complement its smell but have different properties.

A formula with X% benzoin will not be instantly and irreparably flattened forever because it depends what the rest is.

Yes, benzoin may have a flattening effect. Now, what about the effects of everything else in the formula?

 

[flagellum]

I kinda feel like you're missing the basic concept here though: your benzoin will behave like benzoin, and have the characteristics of benzoin, because...it's benzoin. If you want a fragrance that's benzoin-focused but has different properties, then you need to start with benzoin and then add other materials which complement its smell but have different properties.

A formula with X% benzoin will not be instantly and irreparably flattened forever because it depends what the rest is.

Yes, benzoin may have a flattening effect. Now, what about the effects of everything else in the formula?

Thank you most kindly for your useful remark

 

[Emanuel76]

My benzoin is nuclear for 5 minutes, strong for another 5 minutes, then it loses its syrupy oomph and slowly becomes murky/earthy/animalic, and sits quiet on the wrist.

 

[Scntwtk]

If you enjoy the smell of the classic papier d'arménie, you may pair benzoin alongside coumarin, this accord is already more robust than benzoin alone.
Sandalwood goes also very very well with benzoin, natural sandalwood only will probably flatten the composition is used too high .. slightest amount javanol sure could help boost diffusion and harmonise well with benzoin!
Also, Cinnamon bark oil will be very nice to boost the middle/top end of benzoin. you might want to consider a tiny bit of benzaldehyde

Good luck

 

[Emanuel76]

If you enjoy the smell of the classic papier d'arménie, you may pair benzoin alongside coumarin, this accord is already more robust than benzoin alone.
Sandalwood goes also very very well with benzoin, natural sandalwood only will probably flatten the composition is used too high .. slightest amount javanol sure could help boost diffusion and harmonise well with benzoin!
Also, Cinnamon bark oil will be very nice to boost the middle/top end of benzoin. you might want to consider a tiny bit of benzaldehyde

Good luck

It happened to have coumarin on my wrist for 2 hours.
It's much better than whatever they're using as a replacer, which has a strong ghosting effect to my nose. Also its sweetness it's not part of the mix, but floats above it, like an aura. And it's too bitter.
"Tonka" is often paired with woods that accentuates its bitterness, becoming harsh.
I avoid perfumes that have tonka present in the olfactory pyramid.
But coumarin is pleasant.


Something like this?
50% cinnamon
35% benzoin
13% coumarine
2% benzaldehyde

 

[flagellum]

My benzoin on the other hand is aldehydic with some sort of sweet wine note! I love it, but I do not think it could be a soliflore, not anymore at least. But thank you all for your contributions, really enlightening! Since I also love fougere parfums, I could use coumarin, yes!

 

[clandestine laboratories]

Benzoin is a base note. Fragrances without top and midnotes tend not to project, at least not at first. Projection requires that the fragrance evaporate at a rate that allows it to reach a concentration in the atmosphere that allows it to be noticeable.

Musks do "bring other materials along with them" - that's generally their purpose in a composition, to create volume and diffusion, add sensuality, and to blend and soften other materials. However, most musks are also base notes - ie they also have a low evaporation rate. They help the fragrance to achieve diffusion and have volume over time, but they also generally reduce immediate impact. Worth understanding that, to a certain extent, in fragrance mixtures the evaporation rate of the fragrance is partly an average of the rates of its component materials.

For anyone who disagrees re musks: name one fragrance in which the individual characters of the musk chems can be perceived as separate from the character of the fragrance.

There are no hard and fast rules but in general if a fragrance doesn't contain a balance between base, middle and topnote materials, it won't project well (or won't last well if it's lacking base notes). Hence the classical French pyramid and proportions of 40/30/30.

 

[jfrater]

"Tonka" is often paired with woods that accentuates its bitterness, becoming harsh.
I avoid perfumes that have tonka present in the olfactory pyramid.

Most modern perfumes listing tonka have never had a drop of tonka bean added - it will be coumarin. Coumarin can smell bitter when poorly handled. Tonalide works very well with it and can help tame this in overdose. Chanel No 5 has 8% coumarin but it remains soft an elegant due to the balance of other materials.

Tonka bean is one of the most beautiful resins in my opinion. Even small amounts can transform a linear coumarin odour into something wonderful. I definitely recommend you play around with it a bit

As to your formula - 50% cinnamon? Nope - that is way too much unless you are wanting a cinnamon perfume with a slight modification from other materials. Try 0.5% cinnamon up to 5%. And benzaldehyde will be perceptible under 1% also. Something like this is probably a better starting point:

350 Benzoin
100 Coumarin
5 Cinnamon
5 Benzaldehyde 10%

Then push up from there - you can probably get the cinnamon up to 3% before it becomes a really obviously cinnamon scent, and the benzaldehyde maybe you can get it up to 2% but I think you'll find it overpowering. If you have heliotropin that might be a useful addition or alternative to benzaldehyde - it shares some olfactory properties and is far easier to dose.

 

[jfrater]

For anyone who disagrees re musks: name one fragrance in which the individual characters of the musk chems can be perceived as separate from the character of the fragrance.

Can I include natural musks? If yes, then Chypre by Coty [formula]. The civet is a note in its own right. I'd also suggest that you could probably say yes for Aventus [formula] too in which dextro-helvetolide contributes a pear note that is seperate from the other notes.

 

[ScentAle]

Most modern perfumes listing tonka have never had a drop of tonka bean added - it will be coumarin. Coumarin can smell bitter when poorly handled. Tonalide works very well with it and can help tame this in overdose. Chanel No 5 has 8% coumarin but it remains soft an elegant due to the balance of other materials.

Tonka bean is one of the most beautiful resins in my opinion. Even small amounts can transform a linear coumarin odour into something wonderful. I definitely recommend you play around with it a bit

I think same that maybe 1 every 20 use real tonka bean abs when listed. Tonka bean is perceivable also at minimum dosage, what a big presence in every blend. I use highly diluted because too much times changes my blends too much with that sort of "caramelizing" effect.

 

[Scntwtk]

I've been inspired by this post lately and was trying to make vertical benzoin centered accord. Honestly I found that exercise more difficult than I expected. As obvious as it may sound, its hard to lift a heavy benzoin base, while keeping the character of the note throughout from top to bottom.

After a few days, I tried to study Bois d'Arménie by Guerlain instead to try finding some elements that could help me understand benzoin a bit more. I find it's a nice take on benzoin theme with a somewhat modern approach.. yet, there is probably less benzoin than I would have thought in the beginning..
I have never seen that formula published and the study is made only with matching by nose. The decant I have for reference is at least 10 years old, so the top is a bit hard to decipher.. It will not be super accurate but still relatively similar l. I plan to work on it in the next few weeks to see what gives. If anyone is interested to weight the formula and contribute, you are more than welcome.


Benzoin siam resinoid - 5.25
Caryophyllene beta nat. - 1.3
Cashmeran - 7.5. (yes..)
Clearwood - 3
Coriander oil. Hungary - 1.5
Coumarin - 0.4
Galaxolide (neat) - 19.5
Guaiac Oil Paraguay - 3
Hedione HC - 18.75
Heliotropin - 0.45
Muscenone - 0.9
Norlimbanol - 0.15
Orris butter Artessence - 2.25
Patchouli Fraction B Rob. - 1.5
Pepper White SFE 10% - 0.75
Timbersilk - 3
Tonalide - 11.25
Vanillin - 18
DPG - 1.55
----
100



I have been struggling to find the right patchouli and dosage for it, the orris profile is not on point for the moment, as well as the musk here is a bit more simple as the original seem to have a more rich powdery musk on skin, and also in the original, there is a velvety creaminess almost butyric that is lacking in my formula. Finally, the heliotropin; not so sure .. anyways

*On a side note I bought some benzoin siam absolute from white lotus a while back and can't seem to find it anymore, If anyone has a supplier for that material, I'm all ears

 

[steventeddy]

*On a side note I bought some benzoin siam absolute from white lotus a while back and can't seem to find it anymore, If anyone has a supplier for that material, I'm all ears

I believe Apothecary's Garden and Perfumer's Apprentice as long as you're looking for Styrax tonkinensis. Haven't tried either though.

 

[I.D.Adam]

I am so sorry to hear this, it confirms my worst fears. I do not even mind the stickiness of my absolute. I just wanted to bring out its character. I am horribly sorry it just won´t work. I hate Galaxolide, I would have settled for some IES, but even that won´t work, like you are saying.

Thanks anyway

Why don't you do some blending before throwing in the towel

 

[Emanuel76]

Full of useful information, as usual.
Thank you!

Most modern perfumes listing tonka have never had a drop of tonka bean added

I was pretty sure of that.

- it will be coumarin.

I don't know why I thought it was banned and substitutes were used.

Coumarin can smell bitter when poorly handled.

Well, that's the explanation.

Tonka bean is one of the most beautiful resins in my opinion. Even small amounts can transform a linear coumarin odour into something wonderful. I definitely recommend you play around with it a bit

I have a problem with its "chemical" concentrated bitterness.
But maybe it's my fault - I haven't diluted it enough.

As to your formula - 50% cinnamon? Nope - that is way too much unless you are wanting a cinnamon perfume with a slight modification from other materials. Try 0.5% cinnamon up to 5%. And benzaldehyde will be perceptible under 1% also. Something like this is probably a better starting point:

350 Benzoin
100 Coumarin
5 Cinnamon
5 Benzaldehyde 10%

Lol! I wasn't even close. Not even in the same galaxy.

I have checked on TGSC and it is indeed present from 0.25-0.5-1-3%.
I found out in the meantime about the formulas present on their site.

Then push up from there - you can probably get the cinnamon up to 3% before it becomes a really obviously cinnamon scent, and the benzaldehyde maybe you can get it up to 2% but I think you'll find it overpowering. If you have heliotropin that might be a useful addition or alternative to benzaldehyde - it shares some olfactory properties and is far easier to dose.

I had the impression the Cinnamon it's much weaker and the Benzoin much much powerfull.

 

[Scntwtk]

I

I believe Apothecary's Garden and Perfumer's Apprentice as long as you're looking for Styrax tonkinensis. Haven't tried either though.

It's weird, the so-called benzoin absolute from P.A. has the CAS number of Benzoin Sumatra resinoid.. and is sold at 50% in alcohol which suggest it is very resinous and thick when pure. The product I bought named Benzoin Siam absolute from White Lotus was completely mobile liquid and not thick at all..

 

[steventeddy]

I

It's weird, the so-called benzoin absolute from P.A. has the CAS number of Benzoin Sumatra resinoid.. and is sold at 50% in alcohol which suggest it is very resinous and thick when pure. The product I bought named Benzoin Siam absolute from White Lotus was completely mobile liquid and not thick at all..

Was the stuff from WL neat? The Apothecary's Garden listing says their product has 20% ethanol to keep it mobile.

 

[Scntwtk]

Was the stuff from WL neat? The Apothecary's Garden listing says their product has 20% ethanol to keep it mobile.

My goodness.. I was sure it was neat, but just saw 50% ethanol on the bottle... I have not used this product in ages lol. My bad 😅

 

[jfrater]

My goodness.. I was sure it was neat, but just saw 50% ethanol on the bottle... I have not used this product in ages lol. My bad 😅

I am selling Tolu Balsam 50% in food grade ethanol (distilled with glacial water) and I have Benzoin Siam Resinoid in the same format. If you (or anyone for that matter) wants, I can add it to the site today.

 

[clandestine laboratories]

Most modern perfumes listing tonka have never had a drop of tonka bean added - it will be coumarin. Coumarin can smell bitter when poorly handled. Tonalide works very well with it and can help tame this in overdose. Chanel No 5 has 8% coumarin but it remains soft an elegant due to the balance of other materials.

Tonka bean is one of the most beautiful resins in my opinion. Even small amounts can transform a linear coumarin odour into something wonderful. I definitely recommend you play around with it a bit

As to your formula - 50% cinnamon? Nope - that is way too much unless you are wanting a cinnamon perfume with a slight modification from other materials. Try 0.5% cinnamon up to 5%. And benzaldehyde will be perceptible under 1% also. Something like this is probably a better starting point:

350 Benzoin
100 Coumarin
5 Cinnamon
5 Benzaldehyde 10%

Then push up from there - you can probably get the cinnamon up to 3% before it becomes a really obviously cinnamon scent, and the benzaldehyde maybe you can get it up to 2% but I think you'll find it overpowering. If you have heliotropin that might be a useful addition or alternative to benzaldehyde - it shares some olfactory properties and is far easier to dose.

That's too much coumarin imo but I mostly agree - with the caveat that if it's intended as a fragrance and not a base you'd want far more in the way of top and mid notes. As a demonstration, isoamyl acetate would be a good addition, as would lavender, imo.

 

[jfrater]

That's too much coumarin imo but I mostly agree - with the caveat that if it's intended as a fragrance and not a base you'd want far more in the way of top and mid notes. As a demonstration, isoamyl acetate would be a good addition, as would lavender, imo.

Too much coumarin!?!? No way! Stick a couple hundred grams of citrus on top with 100g of vanillin and you have a classic amber base!

A couple of the classic ambreine / opoponax type bases had over 18% coumarin.

On the other hand, if you meant it's too much as in you dislike the odour - chacun à son goût

 

[amateurcitrus]

Essentially yes. You can however make it appear to be far from flat.

I posted a while back a small formula to make Vetiver appear much stronger than it is. It is entirely possible to do this with Benzoin.

Can you link to that formula? Thank you!