Baccarat Rouge Long Drydown

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
My mom has a bottle of MFK Baccarat Rouge that I tried a few days ago. The long drydown seemed to be mostly evernyl, maltol or ethyl maltol, and ambroxide (confirmed by earlier threads here on this perfume). Any guesses as to absolute concentration ranges of these in the finished perfume? It still smelled very strong after more than 24h on skin. (Incidentally, I thought it was undermusked in the long drydown, and was lacking smoothness.)
 

jameshillier

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Jul 15, 2020
I really looove the BR drydown. I’m a little ambroxan fiend. If you’re going for BR 540, don’t forget the hedione! Start with your desired gigadose of hedione, then halve that for your ambrox, then halve that for your veramoss, then quarter that for your ethyl maltol, then equal that for your chosen natural modifier. I’ve experimented with orange terpenes, rose oil and hinoki and they have worked quite well. Jasmine may get you closer to the original.

As with all ambroxan-heavy blends, I recommend leaving it a week before judging.

That should get you somewhere in the ballpark. Interestingly, I read in an interview with FK that BR540 was the product of a Jean Carles-esque balancing experiment.
 
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pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
Musks almost didn't make the formula cut.
There is 1000X more DPG than Ethylene brassylate.

James Hillier isn't far off, but his ratio set would be 4X too much Ethyl maltol.

Looks like the concentrate is diluted to 30% dilution ratio. With 22% of that concentrate as DPG.
So that would make dilution ratio apart from ETOH and DPG at about < 24%

BR540 is one of the shortest formulas that I've seen...
 
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jameshillier

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Jul 15, 2020
Ah yes, whoops. You are right, Paul. But I'll correct you on my name, it's James Hillier, not Shiller.

Not wanting to expose the formula in public, however, I revisited the report and found that it should have been much less ethyl maltol. FYI no musks listed in my report, but there are a couple of unknowns listed among the heavier molecules which I have made no effort to investigate.

Do we think the DPG was a deliberate addition to the formula, or were the original ingredients diluted in DPG? Do manufacturers even need to dilute ambroxan in DPG before mixing?

The original, when sprayed, does glisten on the skin kind of like an oil slick.
 

pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
Ah, James, So sorry about the misspelling! I misread the words run together on your BN name...

David Ruskin and I have had a long conversation going about the large amounts of DPG and other items like this, that show up on GCMS results, that don't seem to be there for any good reason... Not that we've been fighting, or anything, just that we both don't understand why there seems to so often be a nonsensical amount of DPG show up in results.

When one of my clients last year took my concentrate and sent it to a USA bottler, which diluted my concentrate, the conversation came up about the dilution, that may offer insight into this whole series of questions... And this answer may be it.

My own home state of California, run by extreme liberal democrats, and known for overregulating many industries with obsessively psychotic overreach, has legislated the amount of alcohol (read that as VOC's) that can go into a bottle of perfume to a certain percentage, that is lower than we might normally expect. I do not have the exact percentage number in front of me. But the result of the conversation with the bottler, was that My client had picked a 14% dilution ratio for one of the perfumes, and 18% for the other. Both of those ratios were too low for the State of California's micro management, and that the bottler would have to place extra non scent material (like DPG) in it to lower the amount of alcohol used in the perfume, so that the VOC % came down to satisfy California legislation.
 
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mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
Lolz I'm trying this w germacrone instead of ambroxide...

So this turned out to be very very interesting on skin with germacrone instead of ambroxide! And just to see the pure accord, I didn't add any natural modifier. My intuition was that the powerful evernyl & ethyl maltol would mostly push the germacrone into the background. But it seems to be working oppositely, with the germacrone (especially its dark minty facet) being exalted. This is substantially less sweet than real ambroxide-containing baccarat rouge, which drier quality I quite like, but also somewhat less diffusive. I have been searching pretty hard lately for an accord that would accentuate on skin the dark minty facet of germacrone that is so prominent on the smelling strip, and this is definitely doing it! I will play around with germacrone-containing two-component sub-accords of this to see if I can figure out if it's a simpler accord that is exalting the germacrone.
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
Lolz maybe this version is more diffusive than I thought, as my wife just called out from the other room after I sprayed some on my skin DO YOU SMELL FRENCH TOAST!? Lolololol. Maybe I should try the cannelle ciel SFE as a natural modifier!?
 

jameshillier

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Jul 15, 2020
It's crazy diffusive! The same happens here, one can apply it in the bathroom and very quickly it can be detected in a room around the corner.
 

Yuri-G

Well-known member
Sep 13, 2020
I really looove the BR drydown. I’m a little ambroxan fiend. If you’re going for BR 540, don’t forget the hedione! Start with your desired gigadose of hedione, then halve that for your ambrox, then halve that for your veramoss, then quarter that for your ethyl maltol, then equal that for your chosen natural modifier. I’ve experimented with orange terpenes, rose oil and hinoki and they have worked quite well. Jasmine may get you closer to the original.

As with all ambroxan-heavy blends, I recommend leaving it a week before judging.

That should get you somewhere in the ballpark. Interestingly, I read in an interview with FK that BR540 was the product of a Jean Carles-esque balancing experiment.

Wohoo! A formula (of sorts) where I have all the ingredients.

So, if I've followed this correctly, around 2.5% of the natural component? I've gone for a natural neroli base.

I also reduced the ethyl maltol as per Paul's recommendation as it's not my favourite material, and also added a smidge of exaltolide.
 

jameshillier

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Jul 15, 2020
Wohoo! A formula (of sorts) where I have all the ingredients.

So, if I've followed this correctly, around 2.5% of the natural component? I've gone for a natural neroli base.

I also reduced the ethyl maltol as per Paul's recommendation as it's not my favourite material, and also added a smidge of exaltolide.

Yes, around that, though you could always omit it (replace with a solvent) for your own experimentation. Please note I updated my original post after Paul’s comment so the “quartered” ethyl maltol is closer to the correct ratio.

A neroli version sounds divine!
 

Yuri-G

Well-known member
Sep 13, 2020
Yes, around that, though you could always omit it (replace with a solvent) for your own experimentation. Please note I updated my original post after Paul’s comment so the “quartered” ethyl maltol is closer to the correct ratio.

A neroli version sounds divine!

Yes the neroli is lovely. I think it ended up around 0.8% ethyl maltol, which seemed sweet enough for me. Will leave it to macerate for a week and reassess.
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
Yes the neroli is lovely. I think it ended up around 0.8% ethyl maltol, which seemed sweet enough for me. Will leave it to macerate for a week and reassess.

I'm suspect the ambroxide also contributes a lot of sweetness, as the version I have made with germacrone instead of ambroxide was a lot less sweet than the original. Germacrone on its own is pretty neutral on the sweet-dry axis.
 

Yuri-G

Well-known member
Sep 13, 2020
Now that it's had a week to putrefy in its own juices, I'm testing out my neroli version today. I can't compare with the original as I have never smelled it, but this is really lovely. Quite subtle really after a while, but I catch a whiff every now and then as I work.


I'm going to make a bigger batch. I would be tempted to fill it out a little more, maybe add a touch of real oakmoss. I'm running low on ambroxan but have other stuff like cedramber, ambermax, Iso E, timbersilk and a sample of hydroxyambran. Would any of these work to replace part of the ambroxan do we think? I struggle with these materials somewhat. I don't smell them particularly well and they blur into one a bit.
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
I would be surprised if any of those could substitute for ambroxide in this accord. But do please report back what you try!
 

Yuri-G

Well-known member
Sep 13, 2020
Do you get an aquatic aspect from ambroxan? I don't usually, but I am with this formula.

None of the materials I mentioned have that.
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
I think I may be a relatively weak ambroxide smeller, so not sure how generally applicable, but to me this accord is overwhelmingly dominated by evernyl & ethyl maltol. From the ambroxide, I just get a vague woodiness.
 

Yuri-G

Well-known member
Sep 13, 2020
I think I may be a relatively weak ambroxide smeller, so not sure how generally applicable, but to me this accord is overwhelmingly dominated by evernyl & ethyl maltol. From the ambroxide, I just get a vague woodiness.

I think I'm the same Mike, generally speaking. The weird thing within fragrance was that, when I made it, the veramoss and ethyl maltol were way more present. After a week i could distinguish neither directly. They seem to have blended with the the ambroxan to create a clean woody amber smell now, with a slighly aquatic edge and a sweet neroli scent. I did use less ethyl maltol (0.8 rather than 1.2%) and added some exaltolide however.

I'll try experiments replacing the ambroxan with iso e, timbersilk and cedramber to compare how each performs with my original. That seems like a good learning activity.
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
I think I'm the same Mike, generally speaking. The weird thing within fragrance was that, when I made it, the veramoss and ethyl maltol were way more present. After a week i could distinguish neither directly. They seem to have blended with the the ambroxan to create a clean woody amber smell now, with a slighly aquatic edge and a sweet neroli scent. I did use less ethyl maltol (0.8 rather than 1.2%) and added some exaltolide however.

I'll try experiments replacing the ambroxan with iso e, timbersilk and cedramber to compare how each performs with my original. That seems like a good learning activity.

I tried replacing ambroxan with germacrone at the same dose & the accord was definitely different but not dramatically different to my nose.
 

Yuri-G

Well-known member
Sep 13, 2020
I've never heard of that material. There's no description of its smell on good scents either. What does it smell like?

Regarding the marine aspect I smell, in an old post about marine notes, David Ruskin says
Oakmoss has a marine note to it, which is lacking in Treemoss. Add some Oakmoss to Ambroxan for a marine note.

Maybe the combination of ambroxan and evernyl is giving me that association.
 

sharque

New member
Jun 1, 2021
I really looove the BR drydown. I’m a little ambroxan fiend. If you’re going for BR 540, don’t forget the hedione! Start with your desired gigadose of hedione, then halve that for your ambrox, then halve that for your veramoss, then quarter that for your ethyl maltol, then equal that for your chosen natural modifier. I’ve experimented with orange terpenes, rose oil and hinoki and they have worked quite well. Jasmine may get you closer to the original.

Im new in perfume making and would love to try this formula. Just to clarify. So for example I have 10g hedione, ambrox would be 5g, then veramoss would be 2.5g, then ethyl maltol would be 1/4 of 2.5g or 0.625 then modifier is also 0.625g? Did I understand it correctly?
 

Yuri-G

Well-known member
Sep 13, 2020
Im new in perfume making and would love to try this formula. Just to clarify. So for example I have 10g hedione, ambrox would be 5g, then veramoss would be 2.5g, then ethyl maltol would be 1/4 of 2.5g or 0.625 then modifier is also 0.625g? Did I understand it correctly?

Yes I think so, though I used less ethyl maltol. Sounds like there is also a tiny amount of ethylene brassylate.

What modifier were you thinking of using?
 

sharque

New member
Jun 1, 2021
Yes I think so, though I used less ethyl maltol. Sounds like there is also a tiny amount of ethylene brassylate.

What modifier were you thinking of using?

I would like to experiment with Passion Fruit and Lemongrass. I hope it works well.
 

Yuri-G

Well-known member
Sep 13, 2020
That sounds good. The beauty of this is that it's fairly neutral and flexible. Anything that goes with the sweetness of the ethyl maltol should work well.
 

Yuri-G

Well-known member
Sep 13, 2020
Hey Mike. I tried replacing the ambroxan in this with iso e super, cedramber and timbersilk and, to my surprise, iso e was the best. So I think I would replace some of the ambroxan with Iso E in future. I find they play well together.
 

TheDeen

Active member
May 1, 2016
So there's a 'good' formula (I think it smells pretty similar to the Extrait) on a certain blog, but you have to pay for it.

I personally don't care for the perfume all that much and wouldn't wear it, for whatever that is worth. I mean it's sweet, loud etc... but I do like the saffron element (something in a few MFK's) and I do appreciate the fact that it's a super short formula which somehow managed to capture the zeitgeist and be really popular the same time as being wildly expensive for something which contains relatively cheap & few, raw materials. I know...I know.....'...that's the case with most perfumes' and '...marketing...' but something about this struck a chord for whatever reason? And I kinda can't help but respect that.

I recall a rough scouse bird pushing passed me at a perfume counter and shouting over to her mate.... "Ay!!! They've got dat Backarack rooouge five forty 'ear!" and proceeded to douse herself in it. That's how you know your brand has really made it. I had no idea people outside of perfume nerds and people with too much money who just buy luxury shit, knew what it was! But evidently they do!

Anyway....

The positives are that it's quite clever really. It meets the cerebral brief of 'Red' and 'Hot' and a deliberate stylistic choice to opt for synthetic materials, because that's what I get from it.... Heat.

Also when I first looked at the formula my teeth ached from the dose of ethyl maltol. I mean it's clearly there just from smelling the perfume but I would think regardless of what else is in there a dose like that would ruin most formulas. However, BR540 cleverly offsets that with Ambroxan (I used ambrox super when I made it up) and Evenyl, which gives a tempering effect to the ethyl maltol, it's bloody clever and just goes to show that you must never have preconceptions by looking at a formula on paper. (not lecturing anyone else here, more of a note to myself)


Interesting to hear FK say that it was a result of Jean Carles method. I can see that.

So if nothing else, I found it a useful exercise to make up and see what can be done with such a short formula.
 

mnitabach

Well-known member
Nov 13, 2020
Hey Mike. I tried replacing the ambroxan in this with iso e super, cedramber and timbersilk and, to my surprise, iso e was the best. So I think I would replace some of the ambroxan with Iso E in future. I find they play well together.

Thanks for the update! IES is vastly less tenacious than ambroxide on skin, so what happens on the extended drydown? Does it end up getting even sweeter?
 

birdie

Well-known member
Dec 11, 2016
I was a bit surprised you could even dissolve that amount of the three solids in hedione, and well, turned out not easy. After 24 hours it's still half not dissolved. Did you guys add solvent as well or?
 

HisHighness

Well-known member
Dec 14, 2020
Pmsl I actually heard the scouse accent and can imagine some chavette actually saying it like that ewww lol I actually have a formula of baccarat rouge that I tried but am missing some of the ingredients, but it’s going in the right direction… if anyone’s interested let me know and I’ll do a swap lol

So there's a 'good' formula (I think it smells pretty similar to the Extrait) on a certain blog, but you have to pay for it.

I personally don't care for the perfume all that much and wouldn't wear it, for whatever that is worth. I mean it's sweet, loud etc... but I do like the saffron element (something in a few MFK's) and I do appreciate the fact that it's a super short formula which somehow managed to capture the zeitgeist and be really popular the same time as being wildly expensive for something which contains relatively cheap & few, raw materials. I know...I know.....'...that's the case with most perfumes' and '...marketing...' but something about this struck a chord for whatever reason? And I kinda can't help but respect that.

I recall a rough scouse bird pushing passed me at a perfume counter and shouting over to her mate.... "Ay!!! They've got dat Backarack rooouge five forty 'ear!" and proceeded to douse herself in it. That's how you know your brand has really made it. I had no idea people outside of perfume nerds and people with too much money who just buy luxury shit, knew what it was! But evidently they do!

Anyway....

The positives are that it's quite clever really. It meets the cerebral brief of 'Red' and 'Hot' and a deliberate stylistic choice to opt for synthetic materials, because that's what I get from it.... Heat.

Also when I first looked at the formula my teeth ached from the dose of ethyl maltol. I mean it's clearly there just from smelling the perfume but I would think regardless of what else is in there a dose like that would ruin most formulas. However, BR540 cleverly offsets that with Ambroxan (I used ambrox super when I made it up) and Evenyl, which gives a tempering effect to the ethyl maltol, it's bloody clever and just goes to show that you must never have preconceptions by looking at a formula on paper. (not lecturing anyone else here, more of a note to myself)


Interesting to hear FK say that it was a result of Jean Carles method. I can see that.

So if nothing else, I found it a useful exercise to make up and see what can be done with such a short formula.
 

Yuri-G

Well-known member
Sep 13, 2020
Thanks for the update! IES is vastly less tenacious than ambroxide on skin, so what happens on the extended drydown? Does it end up getting even sweeter?

It was definitely less sweet to begin with. I smell IES more strongly than ambroxan so the dry woody amber aspect was more pronounced, though less so than with the timbersilk and cedramber. I suppose that aspect didn't last as long, and I didn't get the aquatic aspect I reported, which I put down to the combination of ambroxan and evernyl. By that stage both versions were more of a skin scent however.

Longevity on both was decent. I did use a little exaltolide though, which would have been playing a role, and evernyl is a very long-lasting material.

Both versions smelled great, and I'm saying that as someone who is not a lover of iso e super.
 
Oct 17, 2021
Hi there!
I am going to wrap up my DIY season of 2021 and I'd like to share what I've come up with. I was working on a DIY version of the Baccarat Rouge 540 edp. There were a lot of trials until I finally accepted this one as OK.

Unfortunately, I run out of tagetes but I figured that its dosage roughly equals that of the safranal (tagetes are restricted at 0,01% in a finished product whereas safranal is at 0,012%). There are a lot of adjustments required but the main idea is more or less clear to me. I own a bottle of the BR540 EDP of 2021. To my nose recent formulation of the product is a bit too sweet (like 1,5% of ethyl maltol in the compound) and the opening is far less intricate (less herbal and more citrusy) - but easier to replicate for DIYers. It seems to me that they added Cashmeran and Jasmine Grandiflorum abs so that EDP nowadays smells closer to the extrait. Overall, earlier EDP smelled more refined than the most recent batches.
As for the main accord of Ambroxide, Hedione, Evernyl and Ethyl maltol - it seems relatively intact. I don't have GCMS, just random hints picked here and there.

The main difficulty considering this aroma is olfactory fatigue. When you smell your trials on the 4th day - they are not the same as on the 1st or the 2nd days. Carefull evaluation is needed as well as relatively long rest between trials.

I prefer to use DPG at 22% as part of the formula - the math is easier to me this way. Also DPG requires less volume than ethanol - it is easier to put around 8 gr of the compound containing DPG in the glassware I usually use.

The main thing with the EDP version is that "less is more". If you think that component "A" or "B" or "C" or DEf4@$D will be just as good or even make your Baccarat Rouge better than the original - take a step back, take a deep breath and leave this nonsense out of your mind)) Well, It could work with top notes, but I recomend you to be very careful with the base notes because literally every bit changes the main accord. In this case olfactory fatigue helps a little as you recognize the smallest inaccuracy of the blend easier when your nose gives up on detecting ambroxide and evernyl.

I also recomend you to make relatively large batches - around 30 gramms because in this case you could make tiny adjustments without ruining your composition. It is impossible to make the main accord and then separately make the top notes that brilliantly fit the main accord. You have to adjust top and middle notes around the main accord. However it is easier to me keep them separate in a formula. Sorry for the color scheme, btw...))

Here is the formula of mine. B,C,D,M columns include the DPG whereas T,U columns exclude it. Sorry, the C-column is unnecessary. Ignore it.
I will resume my work on the BR540 EDP later in the spring of 2022.
Best regards! Stay safe and be happy!
BR540edp.jpg
 
Oct 17, 2021
Who is selling the Renessenz material to you?
Hi, Paul! I buy the Renessenz materials from the "Лаборатория парфюмера" (Perfumer's Lab) - Perfumerylab [.] ru - the most reliable source of raw materials that is located near my residence (Northwest of Russia).

* * *

I restock my Ambrox Super and Hedione HC and made some adjustments to the infamous Baccarat Rouge. Maybe my earlier stock of Hedione HC went a bit off because I had to reduce its dosage.

1) I ditched DPG and made 30% concentration right from the start - smells a bit too strong but I can deal with it.
2) I ditched Amberwood Forte and use superrectified Cedarwood Virginia oil instead, because this material is beautiful! Moreover, the Ambrox Super has a distinctive green-woody note which stands out too much when the Ambrox Super is combined with Amberwood Forte in this case. I like the smooth texture of superrect cedarwood oil much more. And it smells closer to the original.
3) I reduced a bit the dosage of sweet orange oil because the oil I've got is much brighter than the oil I'd used before.
4) overall I changed the top a bit to make it more flowery. Maybe now its too flowery, thoug. And I miss my Tagetes EO, but have to live without it for a while...

I would like to add a trace of the Aldehyde Supra and a trace of Citronellol, but I don't have these ACs at the moment. Maybe the Fir Balsam dosage could be raised a bit (by 1 part), but I am good with the Fir right now.

So, here is my updated formula. There are 2 groups of columns - with the DPG and without. "F"-columns containts the ratios between the main accord ingredients which to my nose smells close enough to the original that I have (2021 batch).

Cheers! 😉
BR540.jpg
 

HisHighness

Well-known member
Dec 14, 2020
Hi, Paul! I buy the Renessenz materials from the "Лаборатория парфюмера" (Perfumer's Lab) - Perfumerylab [.] ru - the most reliable source of raw materials that is located near my residence (Northwest of Russia).

* * *

I restock my Ambrox Super and Hedione HC and made some adjustments to the infamous Baccarat Rouge. Maybe my earlier stock of Hedione HC went a bit off because I had to reduce its dosage.

1) I ditched DPG and made 30% concentration right from the start - smells a bit too strong but I can deal with it.
2) I ditched Amberwood Forte and use superrectified Cedarwood Virginia oil instead, because this material is beautiful! Moreover, the Ambrox Super has a distinctive green-woody note which stands out too much when the Ambrox Super is combined with Amberwood Forte in this case. I like the smooth texture of superrect cedarwood oil much more. And it smells closer to the original.
3) I reduced a bit the dosage of sweet orange oil because the oil I've got is much brighter than the oil I'd used before.
4) overall I changed the top a bit to make it more flowery. Maybe now its too flowery, thoug. And I miss my Tagetes EO, but have to live without it for a while...

I would like to add a trace of the Aldehyde Supra and a trace of Citronellol, but I don't have these ACs at the moment. Maybe the Fir Balsam dosage could be raised a bit (by 1 part), but I am good with the Fir right now.

So, here is my updated formula. There are 2 groups of columns - with the DPG and without. "F"-columns containts the ratios between the main accord ingredients which to my nose smells close enough to the original that I have (2021 batch).

Cheers! 😉
View attachment 180634
A formula I have states amber core, ambroxan, evernyl, ethyl maltol, hedione as the base. Both hedione and amber core in large amounts.
 
Jan 26, 2021
Hi, Paul! I buy the Renessenz materials from the "Лаборатория парфюмера" (Perfumer's Lab) - Perfumerylab [.] ru - the most reliable source of raw materials that is located near my residence (Northwest of Russia).

* * *

I restock my Ambrox Super and Hedione HC and made some adjustments to the infamous Baccarat Rouge. Maybe my earlier stock of Hedione HC went a bit off because I had to reduce its dosage.

1) I ditched DPG and made 30% concentration right from the start - smells a bit too strong but I can deal with it.
2) I ditched Amberwood Forte and use superrectified Cedarwood Virginia oil instead, because this material is beautiful! Moreover, the Ambrox Super has a distinctive green-woody note which stands out too much when the Ambrox Super is combined with Amberwood Forte in this case. I like the smooth texture of superrect cedarwood oil much more. And it smells closer to the original.
3) I reduced a bit the dosage of sweet orange oil because the oil I've got is much brighter than the oil I'd used before.
4) overall I changed the top a bit to make it more flowery. Maybe now its too flowery, thoug. And I miss my Tagetes EO, but have to live without it for a while...

I would like to add a trace of the Aldehyde Supra and a trace of Citronellol, but I don't have these ACs at the moment. Maybe the Fir Balsam dosage could be raised a bit (by 1 part), but I am good with the Fir right now.

So, here is my updated formula. There are 2 groups of columns - with the DPG and without. "F"-columns containts the ratios between the main accord ingredients which to my nose smells close enough to the original that I have (2021 batch).

Cheers! 😉
View attachment 180634
is it ambrox Super too high, IFRA Recommendation 1%
 

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