Aquatic floral formula for critical review

[Jensen Cheung]

Dear friends,

I like aquatic floral fragrance a lot and my goal is to make one with airy fresh watery tone + white flower scent. After studies here and in the TGSC website, I begin to learn how to build one. My start point is the calone + DHM + ISO E super + Galaxolide combination, and then to add muguet and white flowers. After several experiments, I get this formula. For me, not bad, it is fresh, watery and the neroli scent is lovely. However, it is not very diffusive. May I have your critical review?

cis-3-hexen-1-yl acetate 5
Adoxal 5
* Neroli EO 70
Ylang Ylang EO 40
DHM 30
** Calone-161 10
Ethyl Linalool 45
Mayol 180
Silvial 100
Florhydral 40
Floralozone 5
Hedione 150
Helional 40
Timbersilk 20
ISO E super 80
Scentenal 80
Galaxolide 100

total 1000

I have the following questions:

1) I tried to use citral to get a fresh top note, with the level around 0.5%. However, it dominates and the result has a "soft drink" feeling so I give up. Is there a better way to introduce a fresh cirtus top note?

2) Did I overdose neroli/Ylang Ylang? It seems that a little indole scent appears after the fragrance dried. For me, it is fine and even nice. However, would the indole scent affect the freshness of the "aquatic"?

3) Did I overdose muguet material (Mayol, Silvial, Florhydral)? BTW, I feel that I like Mayol and Florhydral a lot, but not much for Silvial. Suggestion for better muguet combination?

4) I overdoes Scentenal since I saw some demo formula from TGSC with Scentenal 10% ! After adding 8% Scentenal, the breeze feeling from the fragrance is not bad Please correct me if this overdose is a problem to hamper the diffusion.

5) I am not a big fan of polycyclic musks. Is it possible to replace galaxoide with Habanolide or Musk T for an aquatic note ?

Thanks!

Some footnotes:

* I used the flower EO of Daidai, a variant of bitter orange
** Calone 161 is a solution with 50% calone

 

[Arenanet]

It seems like a formula that I could do, and that I would like to smell and am interested in the opinion of others.
How soon did you smell the formula? according to my little experience with citral, after maturation its smell is very refined, used in a 0.30% formula.

 

[deroudist]

Just from looking at the formula i would assume that this dosage of Scentenal is way to high and would flatten the whole fragrance. I would also tone down the neroli and add some bergamot in support for diffusion. Add your 3ppts of Citral. Maybe also some precyclemone B (4ppts). Maybe some Ambroxan. With your current formulation i would guess that the scent dies down within an hour or two.

 

[knowledgeableman]

Simplify and leave the more powerful materials out. Try balancing hedione, ylang ylang, iso e super, floral ozone, helional and galaxolide. Once you've done that slowly add small touches of the more powerful stuff. And yes, the scentenal will absolutely destroy everything else.

 

[mnitabach]

Simplify and leave the more powerful materials out. Try balancing hedione, ylang ylang, iso e super, floral ozone, helional and galaxolide. Once you've done that slowly add small touches of the more powerful stuff. And yes, the scentenal will absolutely destroy everything else.

💯💯💯 Altho it is also possible to do the opposite, which is to remove the low & moderate impact materials & then focus on balancing the high impacts, which don't necessarily need to be in "touches" doses if correctly balanced with one another.

 

[emrego]

Just from looking at the formula i would assume that this dosage of Scentenal is way to high

First thing I thought too...And there's still Calone at 1% on top of it! And there's Helional too, which should already give enough support to aqua brightness.

This fragrance would likely smell like a muted, but heavy, floral raw egg, more so than an aquatic floral.

Perhaps you can first start with lowering to (in ppt)
Scentenal 20 or less
Calone 1 or less

I would also significantly reduce Florhydral + Mayol as you might have felted the same already.

For a nice base modification, if you want something metallic, my personal favorite (feel free to play with doses of course nothing is carved in stone):

Ambroxan (around 1%)
Cashmeran (0.5-1%)
Cis-3-Hexenyl Salicylate (4-5%)

Traces of black or pink pepper can do wonders at the top.
Traces of lactones can do wonders overall.

Possibilities are endless of course so I will cut it here. Good luck!

 

[Jensen Cheung]

Thanks a lot for all the replies so far! That is of great help.

I will cut the Scentenal as well as the calone significantly, for the next try. One thing to clarify is that the calone-161 is a solution with 50% calone, so in the formula the calone concentration is ~5 ppt. Still, it can be too much.

@emrego I really like Cis-3-Hexenyl Salicylate, cannot wait for using it in the next experiment. May I ask if 4% Helional suitable for the aquatic floral aspect? And can a trace of Aldehyde C-12 MNA, say 1ppt, be helpful?

 

[emrego]

Thanks a lot for all the replies so far! That is of great help.

I will cut the Scentenal as well as the calone significantly, for the next try. One thing to clarify is that the calone-161 is a solution with 50% calone, so in the formula the calone concentration is ~5 ppt. Still, it can be too much.

@emrego I really like Cis-3-Hexenyl Salicylate, cannot wait for using it in the next experiment. May I ask if 4% Helional suitable for the aquatic floral aspect? And can a trace of Aldehyde C-12 MNA, say 1ppt, be helpful?

Helional usage at 4% is not unusual! It is way more transparent than Calone, Scentenal, Cascalone etc. But of course, while we are trying to help, please do not let us limit your imagination. Take everything as suggestions, try and see, but also try what happens when what "you" think could be interesting.

(As a rule of thumb, start low, increase if doesn't feel enough. Increasing is always possible during blending, but decreasing, not...Also, what might seem "not enough" during blending, might boost itself once you mix into ethanol...or after few weeks aging. It can also be some materials might feel like overdosed at first, but in time mellows down significantly to a point where you notice you should use a bit more in next trial.)

Cis-3-hexenyl salicylate is a big big big favorite, in many blends. Hard to mess it up.

Aldehyde C-12 MNA can indeed give interesting effects easily at 1 ppt. So try away!

Also, I assume you already know but, you can already get a lot of feedback/learning by just reading through The Good Scents Company (TGSC) database, for almost all materials that you use, from their approx. longevity to suggested dilution to smell to their odor impact etc and much more.

i.e.
Helional

The Good Scents Company - Aromatic/Hydrocarbon/Inorganic Ingredients Catalog information

Aromatic/Hydrocarbon/Inorganic Ingredients Catalog information

www.thegoodscentscompany.com

Aldehyde C12-MNA

The Good Scents Company - Aromatic/Hydrocarbon/Inorganic Ingredients Catalog information

Aromatic/Hydrocarbon/Inorganic Ingredients Catalog information

www.thegoodscentscompany.com

The site itself is not very user friendly, but we have Google. Simply search "helional tgsc" and it will often come as the 1st result.

 

[achurs]

Concerning the sweet 'soft drink' effect of the Citral: Citrolate is told to successfully surpress sweet notes of citric essentials and Aroma chemicals while supporting its freshness. I've not tested it yet but in pure form it has a fresh, grapefruit-like scent of which I can imagine it does what described above.

Edit: Further I could imagine Cyclamen Aldehyde being a nice bridge between the watery and floral elements.

 

[emrego]

Florhydral 40
Floralozone 5

Already has above.

Edit: Further I could imagine Cyclamen Aldehyde being a nice bridge between the watery and floral elements.

Florhydral and Floralozone (both quite persistent) both leaning towards Cyclamen aldehyde. So while you made a very true statement in forming watery-floral connection, in the context of above formula, adding more Cyclamen Aldehyde probably will overdose that aspect (if not already).

 

[Jensen Cheung]

Helional usage at 4% is not unusual! It is way more transparent than Calone, Scentenal, Cascalone etc. But of course, while we are trying to help, please do not let us limit your imagination. Take everything as suggestions, try and see, but also try what happens when what "you" think could be interesting.

(As a rule of thumb, start low, increase if doesn't feel enough. Increasing is always possible during blending, but decreasing, not...Also, what might seem "not enough" during blending, might boost itself once you mix into ethanol...or after few weeks aging. It can also be some materials might feel like overdosed at first, but in time mellows down significantly to a point where you notice you should use a bit more in next trial.)

Cis-3-hexenyl salicylate is a big big big favorite, in many blends. Hard to mess it up.

Aldehyde C-12 MNA can indeed give interesting effects easily at 1 ppt. So try away!

Also, I assume you already know but, you can already get a lot of feedback/learning by just reading through The Good Scents Company (TGSC) database, for almost all materials that you use, from their approx. longevity to suggested dilution to smell to their odor impact etc and much more.

i.e.
Helional

The Good Scents Company - Aromatic/Hydrocarbon/Inorganic Ingredients Catalog information

Aromatic/Hydrocarbon/Inorganic Ingredients Catalog information

www.thegoodscentscompany.com

Aldehyde C12-MNA

The Good Scents Company - Aromatic/Hydrocarbon/Inorganic Ingredients Catalog information

Aromatic/Hydrocarbon/Inorganic Ingredients Catalog information

www.thegoodscentscompany.com

The site itself is not very user friendly, but we have Google. Simply search "helional tgsc" and it will often come as the 1st result.

Thank you so much for your help and kindness!

I am using TGSC website for ACs and indeed it is very informative and useful.

Now I am revising the formula on Excel. A naive question is then based on your and other friends' suggestions, several "strong" material would be removed or significantly reduced. I am very excited to try new ideas with
Ambroxan, Cashmeran, Cis-3-Hexenyl Salicylate, Citrolate and etc. However, there would still be a big gap for the total composition (<<100%). In this situation, is it the safest step to increase the existing "moderate" material in the original formula to fill the space? I guess Hedione is pretty fine since it is floral and airy. Can sometimes ethyl linalool damp a perfume?

 

[emrego]

If I were to blindly give it a go on your first formula as starting point....And assuming your palette is quite limited (won't be too adventurous).

cis-3-hexen-1-yl acetate 10
cis-3-hexenyl salicylate 40
Adoxal 5
* Neroli EO 20
Ylang Ylang EO 10
Benzyl Acetate 50 (before putting lots of EOs...keep canvas clean, start minimal. EOs are complex, ease to lose control)
DHM 35 (Maybe leans a bit masculine with DHM, potentially i would replace with Benzyl Salicylate)
** Calone-161 10
Ethyl Linalool 80
Mayol 80 (drastic reduce because Adoxal, Silvial, Florhydral, Floralozone already there substantially. Hedione is drastic increase too that should cover the contrasts and gaps).
Silvial 95
Florhydral 20
Floralozone 5
Hedione 250
Helional 40
Timbersilk 20
ISO E super 100
Scentenal 20
Habanolide 80 (because you asked for it, and yes could be interesting instead of Galaxolide)
Cashmeran 10
Ambroxan 10
g-nonalactone (so-called Aldehyde C18) 5
g-undecalactone (so called Aldhyde C14) 5

TOTAL: 1000 (I calculated fast so if there is a mistake, you can make safe tweaks to reduce Iso-E or increase Ambrox maybe...)

 

[Jensen Cheung]

If I were to blindly give it a go on your first formula as starting point....And assuming your palette is quite limited (won't be too adventurous).

cis-3-hexen-1-yl acetate 10
cis-3-hexenyl salicylate 40
Adoxal 5
* Neroli EO 20
Ylang Ylang EO 10
Benzyl Acetate 50 (before putting lots of EOs...keep canvas clean, start minimal. EOs are complex, ease to lose control)
DHM 35 (Maybe leans a bit masculine with DHM, potentially i would replace with Benzyl Salicylate)
** Calone-161 10
Ethyl Linalool 80
Mayol 80 (drastic reduce because Adoxal, Silvial, Florhydral, Floralozone already there substantially. Hedione is drastic increase too that should cover the contrasts and gaps).
Silvial 95
Florhydral 20
Floralozone 5
Hedione 250
Helional 40
Timbersilk 20
ISO E super 100
Scentenal 20
Habanolide 80 (because you asked for it, and yes could be interesting instead of Galaxolide)
Cashmeran 10
Ambroxan 10
g-nonalactone (so-called Aldehyde C18) 5
g-undecalactone (so called Aldhyde C14) 5

TOTAL: 1000 (I calculated fast so if there is a mistake, you can make safe tweaks to reduce Iso-E or increase Ambrox maybe...)

Thank you so much for your help and design! Luckily I have all the materials in your formula. I made a 10g sample and let it age for 10 hours (the picture).

The difference between this one and my previous formula is like day and night! My formula smells like "DIY" but your design is professional and brilliant. When I open the bottle, the scent is like to enter a Sephora shop. Very fresh, aquatic and beautiful! Three things I noticed so far 1) cis-3-hexenyl salicylate lifts the whole thing 2) The reduction of flower EO really makes the scent bright 3) Peach aldehyde is shining in the formula. I never thought that Peach aldehyde could be so helpful for an aquatic formula.

As mentioned, this new formula is a bit on the masculine side. Suppose that I also want to make a feminine version. I guess that to add more flower EO may not be a good idea. To add indole/methyl anthranilate may also harm the freshness. Is it a good idea to add like 1% Jasmolactone? Could some methyl ionone be used in an aquatic formula. The other thing I am thinking of is Styralyl acetate.

 

[mnitabach]

View attachment 255957 Thank you so much for your help and design! Luckily I have all the materials in your formula. I made a 10g sample and let it age for 10 hours (the picture).

The difference between this one and my previous formula is like day and night! My formula smells like "DIY" but your design is professional and brilliant. When I open the bottle, the scent is like to enter a Sephora shop. Very fresh, aquatic and beautiful! Three things I noticed so far 1) cis-3-hexenyl salicylate lifts the whole thing 2) The reduction of flower EO really makes the scent bright 3) Peach aldehyde is shining in the formula. I never thought that Peach aldehyde could be so helpful for an aquatic formula.

As mentioned, this new formula is a bit on the masculine side. Suppose that I also want to make a feminine version. I guess that to add more flower EO may not be a good idea. To add indole/methyl anthranilate may also harm the freshness. Is it a good idea to add like 1% Jasmolactone? Could some methyl ionone be used in an aquatic formula. The other thing I am thinking of is Styralyl acetate.

You should try the jasmolactone at 1%, as it will be a very interesting experiment & you will probably learn something very valuable about this very powerful molecule!

 

[emrego]

As mentioned, this new formula is a bit on the masculine side. Suppose that I also want to make a feminine version. I guess that to add more flower EO may not be a good idea. To add indole/methyl anthranilate may also harm the freshness. Is it a good idea to add like 1% Jasmolactone?

More feminine: I would say lose DHM (as commented in my previous post), and just replace it with Benzyl Salicylate.

Indole and MA are definitely worth your formula and scent type (if you want to lean to more white flower, primarily jasmine). Indole at traces, around 1 ppt (Indole dilution usually at 1%). MA can be a bit higher. So replacing current 35 DHM with 30 Benzyl Salicylate + 4 MA + 1 Indole, could work.

PEA together with ionones can give cosmetic/lotion feminine effect. You need to try without breaking your balance too much. I would say first focus on what you think is not working out. Like DHM, is a suspect for brining the blend too masculine at the opening.

You also have Neroli-like EO at 2%.I don't know the variety you are using so hard to judge its impact on smell and power in blend. I would consider using simpler top notes like Sweet Orange EO and Bergamot FCF EO or such. Adding pink pepper in traces could help freshness. Even traces of menthol/mint ingredients can help.

As you see, we can go in many directions so I think instead of asking details here, you should now focus on your organ and just try and fail and succeed Let us not take the fun from you, when you come up with something nice on your own, that satisfaction will be different than making something under high guidance of fellow BNers.

I think key takeaways from this thread for you are:

1) Dose of high impact materials: Start low, increase if needed
2) Just because you have several options from same family (i.e. Calone/Scentenal or all those cyclamen/muguet materials) doesn't mean you should use all in combination with substantive amounts. Again, be simple at first. Ex: You could just use Calone, then see what happens if you add Scentenal.
3) Be simple with natural EOs at first. EOs already consist of dozens of volatile compounds - the more you use naturals the less control you have on your blend, easy to mute the fragrance and make it muddy.
4) White flowers need lactones, indole. Again, dose very low and increase until you are happy.

You should try the jasmolactone at 1%, as it will be a very interesting experiment & you will probably learn something very valuable about this very powerful molecule!

100% agree.

 

[mnitabach]

More feminine: I would say lose DHM (as commented in my previous post), and just replace it with Benzyl Salicylate.

Indole and MA are definitely worth your formula and scent type (if you want to lean to more white flower, primarily jasmine). Indole at traces, around 1 ppt (Indole dilution usually at 1%). MA can be a bit higher. So replacing current 35 DHM with 30 Benzyl Salicylate + 4 MA + 1 Indole, could work.

PEA together with ionones can give cosmetic/lotion feminine effect. You need to try without breaking your balance too much. I would say first focus on what you think is not working out. Like DHM, is a suspect for brining the blend too masculine at the opening.

You also have Neroli-like EO at 2%.I don't know the variety you are using so hard to judge its impact on smell and power in blend. I would consider using simpler top notes like Sweet Orange EO and Bergamot FCF EO or such. Adding pink pepper in traces could help freshness. Even traces of menthol/mint ingredients can help.

As you see, we can go in many directions so I think instead of asking details here, you should now focus on your organ and just try and fail and succeed Let us not take the fun from you, when you come up with something nice on your own, that satisfaction will be different than making something under high guidance of fellow BNers.

I think key takeaways from this thread for you are:

1) Dose of high impact materials: Start low, increase if needed
2) Just because you have several options from same family (i.e. Calone/Scentenal or all those cyclamen/muguet materials) doesn't mean you should use all in combination with substantive amounts. Again, be simple at first. Ex: You could just use Calone, then see what happens if you add Scentenal.
3) Be simple with natural EOs at first. EOs already consist of dozens of volatile compounds - the more you use naturals the less control you have on your blend, easy to mute the fragrance and make it muddy.
4) White flowers need lactones, indole. Again, dose very low and increase until you are happy.


100% agree.

All very good advice, IMO! For a very "feminine cosmetic" accord, I agree w PEA + ionone, and particularly recommend PEA + iralia in equal proportions. Also, I think that a decent amount of hydroxycitronellal replacing equal amount of the mayol could both improve diffusion and exalt such a cosmetic accord.

 

[Jensen Cheung]

More feminine: I would say lose DHM (as commented in my previous post), and just replace it with Benzyl Salicylate.

Indole and MA are definitely worth your formula and scent type (if you want to lean to more white flower, primarily jasmine). Indole at traces, around 1 ppt (Indole dilution usually at 1%). MA can be a bit higher. So replacing current 35 DHM with 30 Benzyl Salicylate + 4 MA + 1 Indole, could work.

PEA together with ionones can give cosmetic/lotion feminine effect. You need to try without breaking your balance too much. I would say first focus on what you think is not working out. Like DHM, is a suspect for brining the blend too masculine at the opening.

You also have Neroli-like EO at 2%.I don't know the variety you are using so hard to judge its impact on smell and power in blend. I would consider using simpler top notes like Sweet Orange EO and Bergamot FCF EO or such. Adding pink pepper in traces could help freshness. Even traces of menthol/mint ingredients can help.

As you see, we can go in many directions so I think instead of asking details here, you should now focus on your organ and just try and fail and succeed Let us not take the fun from you, when you come up with something nice on your own, that satisfaction will be different than making something under high guidance of fellow BNers.

I think key takeaways from this thread for you are:

1) Dose of high impact materials: Start low, increase if needed
2) Just because you have several options from same family (i.e. Calone/Scentenal or all those cyclamen/muguet materials) doesn't mean you should use all in combination with substantive amounts. Again, be simple at first. Ex: You could just use Calone, then see what happens if you add Scentenal.
3) Be simple with natural EOs at first. EOs already consist of dozens of volatile compounds - the more you use naturals the less control you have on your blend, easy to mute the fragrance and make it muddy.
4) White flowers need lactones, indole. Again, dose very low and increase until you are happy.


100% agree.

@emrego Thank you, thank you very much for your opinions. I will keep these keys in mind. When I get time to try "feminine" formulae, I will come back to share the experience.​

​

 

[Jensen Cheung]

All very good advice, IMO! For a very "feminine cosmetic" accord, I agree w PEA + ionone, and particularly recommend PEA + iralia in equal proportions. Also, I think that a decent amount of hydroxycitronellal replacing equal amount of the mayol could both improve diffusion and exalt such a cosmetic accord.

Thanks a lot! I will order some hydroxycitronellal for a try.

 

[mnitabach]

Thanks a lot! I will order some hydroxycitronellal for a try.

Different hydroxycitronellal materials can be quite different. I highly recommend both Firmenich cyclosia & the Vigon-sourced hydroxycitronellal, both available from Perfumer's Supply House.

 

[pavomi]

3) Did I overdose muguet material (Mayol, Silvial, Florhydral)? BTW, I feel that I like Mayol and Florhydral a lot, but not much for Silvial. Suggestion for better muguet combination?

muguet materials that i can recommend are biocyclamol and biomuguet, they seem to last forever. and IME both of them blend excellently with adoxal.
i tend to use biocyclamol quite a lot, not just floral related blends.

mayol is lovely. maybe try florol too, it can be overdosed to create transparent effects.
and if you can source it: hydrofleur. its floral muguet ozonic, and very strong, you don't need much of it.

 

[mnitabach]

muguet materials that i can recommend are biocyclamol and biomuguet, they seem to last forever. and IME both of them blend excellently with adoxal.
i tend to use biocyclamol quite a lot, not just floral related blends.

mayol is lovely. maybe try florol too, it can be overdosed to create transparent effects.
and if you can source it: hydrofleur. its floral muguet ozonic, and very strong, you don't need much of it.

I literally just obtained this week biocyclamol & biomuguet. Any thoughts on how to dose them? Any ideas for an interesting accord to highlight their effects?

 

[pavomi]

I literally just obtained this week biocyclamol & biomuguet. Any thoughts on how to dose them? Any ideas for an interesting accord to highlight their effects?

biocyclamol is stronger than one would expect smelling it on a blotter. biomuguet is straight forward about its strength.
they are especially great with green materials, and oh oh with musks there are really lovely transformative accords. play with biocyclamol and e.g. exaltone...

 

[knowledgeableman]

Can you smell anything else other than Scentanal? WOW!