An Apple-Pineapple Accord?

[mkturker]

I have a list about Apple-pineapple mix accord but where did I find it, I don't know.

Does anyone have opinion about these materials below and how much the quantity must be?

Ethyl Isovalerat
Ethyl Valerat
Geranyl Pentanoate
Pentil Heksanoate
Amyl Kaproat

Is there anything for adding to these materails?

 

[SymphonyOfScents]

i actually havent smell any, but the amyl should give some pineapple vibes. but if i was you i would just buy natural pineapple and apple base from Robertet in Perfumer Apprentice. and create a pineapple and apple accord etc. they smell natural and true to its fruit.

 

[skuharev]

MANZANATE
Allyl heptanoate
ALLYL CAPROATE
ALLYL AMYL GLYCOLATE
PHARAONE® 10%
NEOBUTENONE ALPHA 20%

Pineapple juice DYNASCONE® 20%

 

[mkturker]

i actually havent smell any, but the amyl should give some pineapple vibes. but if i was you i would just buy natural pineapple and apple base from Robertet in Perfumer Apprentice. and create a pineapple and apple accord etc. they smell natural and true to its fruit.

My basic and general aim is not to buy an accord prepared. Of course I can find lots of accord studied professionally.But I want to learn about something. If I choose to buy a ready accord, I will never learn how did this accord prepared and what is it's ingredient.

 

[mkturker]

MANZANATE
Allyl heptanoate
ALLYL CAPROATE
ALLYL AMYL GLYCOLATE
PHARAONE® 10%
NEOBUTENONE ALPHA 20%

Pineapple juice DYNASCONE® 20%

Why did you choose Neobutenote Alpha and Dynascone together? Both are almost same.Neobutenone is a little softer than Dynascone IMO.

And I almost know these accord you written but my question is about that materials I written first

 

[birdie]

I have a list about Apple-pineapple mix accord but where did I find it, I don't know.

Does anyone have opinion about these materials below and how much the quantity must be?

Ethyl Isovalerat
Ethyl Valerat
Geranyl Pentanoate
Pentil Heksanoate
Amyl Kaproat

Is there anything for adding to these materails?

Assuming it is Pentyl Hexanoate it is the same as Amyl Caproate - works well in pineapple but use sparingly.
I have made a few pineapple accords and they all have at least 20 ACs in them. Things like pharaone, pinenes, butyrates, terpenes, cyclogalbanate, furaneol and often a tiny amount of sulfurole to make it a bit more realistic. It is all in the balance..

 

[Bill Roberts]

As a suggestion, while I understand appeal in using spelling customary in one's own country, for searching for information on aromachemicals far more will be found when using standard English chemistry spellings and particularly as most common in fragrance.

If for example wanting to search German literature specifically, sure, use German spelling then, but these days English is by far the most common language for chemistry around the world.

E.g valerate (or pentanoate) not valerat, caproate (or hexanoate) not caproat or heksanoate, and amyl (or pentyl) not pentil.

This is not intended to pick on you, but to be helpful advice.

 

[mkturker]

As a suggestion, while I understand appeal in using spelling customary in one's own country, for searching for information on aromachemicals far more will be found when using standard English chemistry spellings and particularly as most common in fragrance.

If for example wanting to search German literature specifically, sure, use German spelling then, but these days English is by far the most common language for chemistry around the world.

E.g valerate (or pentanoate) not valerat, caproate (or hexanoate) not caproat or heksanoate, and amyl (or pentyl) not pentil.

This is not intended to pick on you, but to be helpful advice.

You are true and right Bill.But sometimes we can confuse because of our native and English :smiley: I have studied for 8 years about management academically and sometimes it is confusing English-Turkish in spelling or grammer.I am not aware of my writing and spelling sometimes because I read it heksa but it must be hexa :smiley:

 

[mkturker]

Assuming it is Pentyl Hexanoate it is the same as Amyl Caproate - works well in pineapple but use sparingly.
I have made a few pineapple accords and they all have at least 20 ACs in them. Things like pharaone, pinenes, butyrates, terpenes, cyclogalbanate, furaneol and often a tiny amount of sulfurole to make it a bit more realistic. It is all in the balance..

If you don’t mind,can you give a good or your best pineapple accord with their ratios?I read lots of thing about pineapple accord which needs to allyl amyl glucolate,allyl heptanoate,manzanate etc. but you didn’t mentioned them

 

[Bill Roberts]

I actually don't know what I'm talking about but whether coincidence or not, I've noticed that Turks do seem to favor German-like spellings!

Genuinely curious: Is that true, and if so is there a reason? That might culturally be very interesting if true.

Of course, many Turks emigrate to Germany, but I would not think that could be the main reason (if it's true.)

 

[mkturker]

I actually don't know what I'm talking about but whether coincidence or not, I've noticed that Turks do seem to favor German-like spellings!

Genuinely curious: Is that true, and if so is there a reason? That might culturally be very interesting if true.

Of course, many Turks emigrate to Germany, but I would not think that could be the main reason (if it's true.)

You maybe true some of these aspects.But I think it is because of a little historical things.About chemistry,Turkey and Turkish people (especially scientist) affected from German spelling because there were some German scientist studied in Turkey at 1950s.But these wrong spellings are my fault.Because I think I wrote them in excel table from a Turkish source or wrote them fastly and didn’t care and after copy-past it occured.

For example of your comment and curious, we say potato as Turkish Patates in middle and west Anatolia lıcally but at east some of us say Kartol.I listen it from my olds that,it is because of 1. World War. Potato came Turkey by an English General(soldier) and he said it Potato in west and Anatolian local community said it Patates.But when is arrived to east of Anatolia,there had been a German general and he had said it Kartol.

But I think your opinion about immigration from Turkey to Germany is not true completly because little of Turks migrated to Germany as immigrant.They went to Germany after 2. World war and because of Germany’s problem about young labour.Greeks are also more in Germany then Turks.But the spellings and languages about pronunciations and others are very different.

These are only my opinion and not any political comment.We,Turks loves people in everywhere and we have powerfull neighbourhood.

I invite you to a holiday in Turkey especially Antalya,Muğla,Ihlara Valley(Aksaray-my birth place), Perissia,Ürgüp,İstanbul etc.

 

[Bill Roberts]

Thank you very much! That was valuable to learn and not something easy to find one one's own.

That would be wonderful if I could travel to Turkey! I really appreciate your invitation. Sadly I almost never get to travel, but you never know. I did get an opportunity for a short trip to France many years back, completely unexpectedly, so these things do happen.

 

[mkturker]

Thank you very much! That was valuable to learn and not something easy to find one one's own.

That would be wonderful if I could travel to Turkey! I really appreciate your invitation. Sadly I almost never get to travel, but you never know. I did get an opportunity for a short trip to France many years back, completely unexpectedly, so these things do happen.

Bill, I will be very pleasure if you visit here. As you estimate, we have lots of archeological,historical, seaside, snowy etc holiday centers. We have Ihlara Valley which has the first time of Christianity. We have a city Güzelyurt which the Christian Orthodox Sect was established first in world. We have lots of places from Sumerians, Hittite. Anatolia is meaybe one of the first centres of religions. As you know Efes is very blessed centre. Prophet Ibrahim(In Islam Ibrahim, in Jewish Abraham) lived in Urfa.The three Book Religion's (Islam, Christianity and Judaism) most important centers are in here. But if anyone wants to visit a seaside and want to swim in a sea like Maldives or better, you can come to Muğla-Fethiye or Antalya. The advantage is that, Dolar is expensive in here and you can do lots of thing with your 100 $ :smiley: The holiday is very cheap for you in here. If you ever come or think to come Turkey, please write me at PM. I have a question but I will write it after this long comment :smiley:

 

[Bill Roberts]

I certainly will if I can! Thank you!

 

[mkturker]

Thank you very much! That was valuable to learn and not something easy to find one one's own.

That would be wonderful if I could travel to Turkey! I really appreciate your invitation. Sadly I almost never get to travel, but you never know. I did get an opportunity for a short trip to France many years back, completely unexpectedly, so these things do happen.

Bill, I have a question about gum scent. I have a natural Neroli and it has a sweet gum odor in its middle note. But I want to find it in a sythetic material. I researched about GC-MS of Neroli in Researchgate and I saw in some of them Methyl atranilate at % 11. I read your very old comments in a thread about gum odor and you had mentioned that, gum odor depends on culture. You had said gum odor may come from (For US) Cinamon. But for English, gum odor is about methyl atranilate. What do you think? Where does that sweet gum scent come from in Natural Neroli?Which of that materials?

 

[Bill Roberts]

I don't know unfortunately, as to me nothing I would call at all like any gum is there!

Your thought on methyl anthranilate makes sense though, for those who associate that with gum.

By the way, I just read yesterday that about 97% of "Bergamot Essential Oil" sold worldwide is counterfeit.

For Neroli, it is probably even higher.

 

[mkturker]

I don't know unfortunately, as to me nothing I would call at all like any gum is there!

Your thought on methyl anthranilate makes sense though, for those who associate that with gum.

By the way, I just read yesterday that about 97% of "Bergamot Essential Oil" sold worldwide is counterfeit.

For Neroli, it is probably even higher.

I obtained a Neroli Identical sample from Ventos an and its scent was a little earthy and a little woody but lesser of its aspect was fruity or citrus.A few days ago I obtained a Neroli Natural sample from a turstwothy firm and its odor has a little chewy gum aspect and its top note was citrusy.But the latter wasn’t so powerfull as first.As you seen from my formula yesterday 3% of top note was Natural Neroli in my formula and its gum odor is nearly clear.Because I smelled it (Neroli Nat.)lonely and the same feeling was.I can find citrus aspect from lots of material but for gum,I can’t.

For bergamot,I used in my first formula a bergamot more like to Pine but the second was more about lemon.Of course unless I get a GC-MS analyse I can’t know is it real or not,natural or not.But learning feom you is great.I will get more attention for these materials after this.

Thank you for your information and warning

 

[Bill Roberts]

For sure you can trust Ventos (as you know.)

 

[Darren Alan]

I don't know unfortunately, as to me nothing I would call at all like any gum is there!

Your thought on methyl anthranilate makes sense though, for those who associate that with gum.

By the way, I just read yesterday that about 97% of "Bergamot Essential Oil" sold worldwide is counterfeit.

For Neroli, it is probably even higher.

Bill, I was just reading a paper yesterday on the adulteration of essential oils & they tested samples of Neroli, Mandarin & bergamot essential oils from several large online suppliers. Only one of the nine samples of Neroli tested conformed to spec. Interesting yet disheartening information:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-90307-2


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[Bill Roberts]

Great article, much appreciated!

[idiot error deleted but can be viewed in quote below if desired]

 

[Darren Alan]

Great article, much appreciated!

It is interesting that an obvious fake managed to pass! (The fakeness being obvious because genuine Neroli utterly will not be under $1/mL.)

That is because, I believe, imitation Neroli is not a hard material at all to get to meet ISO standards using natural isolates.

To be clear, the authors were not fooled, writing of such "This is not to say there is no chance of adulteration in either of these samples, merely that these samples meet, or nearly meet, the advice of the ISO reference."

Yes! My thoughts exactly! That was another layer of this that concerned me! Even a seemingly positive test result does not guarantee a legitimate essential oil...it just confirms a sample that appears to conform to standards (which is a good start at least) [emoji2373]


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[Bill Roberts]

IMO one has to also see the presence of things which one can't add from off the shelf stuff.

E.g., while I don't know that any of the sub-0.1% components are important to the odor of Neroli and I tend to expect not, and I don't know which are best suited to being "fingerprints," one can see that there are a lot of possibilities: https://www.planttherapy.com/test_reports/Neroli N10107.pdf

As one example, if seeing benzeneacetonitrile in there from a European or American manufacturer supplier, I'm going to assume that component came from a natural product, or the whole thing is real, rather than it was added synthetically. That is due to its being a nasty nasty that is acceptable at low levels for a natural but not acceptable to add deliberately

 

[Darren Alan]

IMO one has to also see the presence of things which one can't add from off the shelf stuff.

E.g., while I don't know that any of the sub-0.1% components are important to the odor of Neroli and I tend to expect not, and I don't know which are best suited to being "fingerprints," one can see that there are a lot of possibilities: https://www.planttherapy.com/test_reports/Neroli N10107.pdf

As one example, if seeing benzeneacetonitrile in there from a European or American manufacturer supplier, I'm going to assume that component came from a natural product, or the whole thing is real, rather than it was added synthetically. That is due to its being a nasty nasty that is acceptable at low levels for a natural but not acceptable to add deliberately

Good point! I never thought of it from the other side like that...hopefully that won't give CP or NDA any ideas! [emoji1787]


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[mkturker]

Great article, much appreciated!

It is interesting that an obvious fake managed to pass the chosen examination method! (The fakeness being obvious because genuine Neroli absolutely will not be under $1/mL.)

That is because, I believe, imitation Neroli is not a hard material at all to get to meet ISO standards using natural isolates unless maybe getting that amount of that isomer of farnesol is hard but I have no information that it is.

To be clear, the authors were not fooled, writing of such "This is not to say there is no chance of adulteration in either of these samples, merely that these samples meet, or nearly meet, the advice of the ISO reference."

Bill,you say it must be 1$/ml for natural neroli but I get an offer about nearly 450$/kg for it.Does it depend on localization?Our country has a big chance about citrus fruits like orange and others.So,orange flower may not be expensive or maybe cheaper than other countries but I love this Neroli I used.

But the most important point is,I have to be more carefull about that fake “Naturals”.

This attention is very important to me

 

[Bill Roberts]

The market value of genuine Neroli is very high. Only a fool of a producer would sell it cheap enough to retail at under $1/mL, to my understanding.

I don't like asking for quotes when not buying so for example I won't ask Ventos, which I expect would beat Vigon, but for example at Vigon it is $8800 per kg, so would retail at past $10/gram. I do think there's legit retail somewhat less than that, say $6/gram but I don't recall exactly, and if there's a local producer perhaps a discount from that as well, but under $1/gram just would be foolishly giving away something that is very valuable when legitimate.

Who gives away gold at silver prices just because of the country they are in, in these days of world trade?

$450/kg in my opinion has absolutely got to be fake.

How does it compare to Ventos? 10 times cheaper or thereabouts?

It might be a fair price for a fine quality imitation, and might make sense for a commercial project.

Few commercial projects can afford genuine Neroli.

 

[mkturker]

The market value of genuine Neroli is very high. Only a fool of a producer would sell it cheap enough to retail at under $1/mL, to my understanding.

I don't like asking for quotes when not buying so for example I won't ask Ventos, which I expect would beat Vigon, but for example at Vigon it is $8800 per kg, so would retail at past $10/gram. I do think there's legit retail somewhat less than that, say $6/gram but I don't recall exactly, and if there's a local producer perhaps a discount from that as well, but under $1/gram just would be foolishly giving away something that is very valuable when legitimate.

Who gives away gold at silver prices just because of the country they are in, in these days of world trade?

$450/kg in my opinion has absolutely got to be fake.

How does it compare to Ventos? 10 times cheaper or thereabouts?

It might be a fair price for a fine quality imitation, and might make sense for a commercial project.

Few commercial projects can afford genuine Neroli.

You are right.If I were a producer and while its price is at 8000$ globally,why I would sell it wholesale or retail under that price?It maybe %10 +- but not at -% 95.I am so honest and I suppose everyone is same but must be carefull.

At the other side,a fragrance clone manufacturer in here, offered me(of course syntetic) 30 Euros per kg.I didn’t test it but the important thing for me is not to be natural of syntetic.If its scent is good,that’s ok.

Thank you for your attention.I learnt something about your these comments.

 

[Bill Roberts]

There was a wild error by me above.

We were talking about Neroli and somehow I turned the article's data on Bergamot into Neroli, and I said there was no way that legitimate Neroli can be under $1/mL.

That is true, on pricing of Neroli.

But what is not true is that the article was talking about Neroli. It was talking about Bergamot.

And the article's sample in question is not an obvious (if at all) fake from being under $1/mL retail. Absolutely one can get legitimate Bergamot for that. It simply is an example, within the article, of a more modest priced product meeting specifications while some far higher priced ones did not and in some cases were definite fakes.