Advice on improving 'Black Cherry' accord

[Logocracy]

With all this recent talk of cherry in the forum, I thought I would try my hand at a black cherry accord.

Benzyl Aldehyde	81
Benzyl alcohol	81
Heliotropin X	270
Dihydro ionone Beta	81
Damascone Beta	27
Ethyl Linalool	135
Gamma Decalactone	54
Eugenol	8
Veratraldehyde	54
Anisyl Acetate	108

Benzyl Salicylate	81
Aldehyde C8	20
Total	1000

Let it maturate for about 48hrs and that nice sour cherry note of the "black cherry" comes through, I think largely caused by the combination of Anisyl Acetate and the Damascone Beta.

A couple of issues still with it:
- It smells how I'd like, but it doesn't project well. It's kind of flat. Any advice on getting it to pop more?

- There is a waxy-ness to it that I'd like to reduce. Perhaps backing down the C-8?

 

[pkiler]

I haven't made it, sorry...

and again, Sorry, but this is expensive, but bread thiophene,

The Good Scents Company - Aromatic/Hydrocarbon/Inorganic Ingredients Catalog information

Aromatic/Hydrocarbon/Inorganic Ingredients Catalog information

www.thegoodscentscompany.com

is terrific for black cherry.

A tiny touch of maltol might help too.

I think you could back down both the Aldehyde C-8 and Gamma Decalactone.
But really, I'd trade C-8 for Trans-2-Hexenal, instead.
There is C-8 in Cherry, but there is more C-10 than C-8, and a lot more t-2-hex than both C's combined.

I'd also cut the Heliotropin down to 1/4 of it's current dose, and add more eugenol/methyl diantilis.

 

[parker25mv]

I'm surprised you did not use any cinnamon leaf oil. I think your formula is missing something very substantiative like that.


Cherry pentenoate (ethyl-2-methy-3-pentenoate) seems to be very commonly used in black cherry aromas as well, though may be hard to source. (fruity, green plant stem, weedy, cherry feel, melon rind, berry, tropical, pineapple, darker somewhat blueberry-like direction)


I have no idea and could be wrong about this, but maybe you should try using anisyl alcohol instead of only using anisyl acetate? (maybe half and half) (I see that you tried to use benzyl alcohol as a substitute for that)

The amount of heliotropin also seems really high in your formula.

I think toluene aldehyde (4-methylbenzaldehyde, p-tolualdehyde) might be important as well, for a darker version of benzaldehyde.

Would you be able to replace most of the benzyl salicylate with benzyl benzoate? Salicylates can sometimes muddle fragrances, and you have it really high at 8 percent. For something like this, maybe take the salicylate down to 1 or 1.5 percent.

 

[Logocracy]

I'm surprised you did not use any cinnamon leaf oil. I think your formula is missing something very substantiative like that.

I did try it, but I actually didn't like it much in the formula. I might revisit.

 

[parker25mv]

I did try it, but I actually didn't like it much in the formula.

You really should try to use at least a small amount.

A possible substitute for the same effect could be a combination of cis-3-hexenol (fresh cut grass) and methyl cinnamyl alcohol (or just cinnamyl alcohol if not available).

These "alcohols" provide a greater "punch" and potency, add "sharpness" and astringency. Your formula, as it stands, may be missing some of that.
Looking at your formula, my guess is it is a little too sweet fruity and lacks "structure".

Remember that things can have a very positive impact on a blend, even if, by themselves, you don't think they smell like the direction you want.


It might also have been a small mistake on your part to go with ethyl linalool rather than ordinary linalool.

 

[Logocracy]

I haven't made it, sorry...

and again, Sorry, but this is expensive, but bread thiophene,

The Good Scents Company - Aromatic/Hydrocarbon/Inorganic Ingredients Catalog information

Aromatic/Hydrocarbon/Inorganic Ingredients Catalog information

www.thegoodscentscompany.com

is terrific for black cherry.

A tiny touch of maltol might help too.

I think you could back down both the Aldehyde C-8 and Gamma Decalactone.
But really, I'd trade C-8 for Trans-2-Hexenal, instead.
There is C-8 in Cherry, but there is more C-10 than C-8, and a lot more t-2-hex than both C's combined.

I'd also cut the Heliotropin down to 1/4 of it's current dose, and add more eugenol/methyl diantilis.

This is super advice, thank you.
I had a feeling that I had overdosed on the Heliotropin.

 

[Logocracy]

Looking at your formula, my guess is it is a little too sweet fruity and lacks "structure".

This is a good point. I'd do another batch of trials and see if I make it punchier with the alcohols too.

I also have cinnamon bark, would that work instead of the leaf?

 

[parker25mv]

Again, I could be totally wrong about this, but I wonder if perhaps the effect you are after is some sort of fruity ester, and because you did not have that in there, you tried to overcompensate in other areas.

This might be a useful reference:
Table of esters and their smells

Isobutyl acetate is the one with the picture of the cherry in the table.
(odor description: sweet fruity ethereal banana tropical, but it is also commonly used in pear and raspberry fragrances which are more "sour" fruits, people often describe these esters as smelling like tutti frutti candies)
Geranyl butyrate is another.

 

[parker25mv]

I also have cinnamon bark, would that work instead of the leaf?

It would be better than nothing, but the leaf is going to give you more of the sharpness, which I think you need to define your formula.
(the two are very different)

You have to realise that any cherry aroma is going to inherently be at least a little bit sharp and sour. Yet I can tell that you seem to want to avoid these.

It's difficult to give recommendations, because I don't know exactly what type of smell you are after, and you do not know exactly what these smell like.

 

[griffon]

I recommend you to add a bit of Cinnamon leaf oil, a bit of Aldehyde C16 (for the red fruit touch) and as suggested by @pkiler some maltol (or ethyl maltol+vanillin).

 

[Quay Limey]

I think toluene aldehyde (4-methylbenzaldehyde, p-tolualdehyde) might be important as well, for a darker version of benzaldehyde.

Have you actually smelled these materials?

I ask because they have very little in common and certainly confer different effects in accords. One is not a darker version of the other.

 

[David Ruskin]

I also have cinnamon bark, would that work instead of the leaf?

The two oils are not that similar. Cinnamon Bark oil is mainly cinnamic aldehyde; Cinnamon Leaf oil contains quite a high amount of eugenol (over 80.0% , Clove smelling).

 

[ScentAle]

For cherry i like also to use touch of acetophenone with benzaldehyde, fruitaleur and ethyl acetoacetate and free C16 dose.
When I think black cherry in my mind there are also some alcoolic notes and an astringent part.

 

[LaFou]

The two oils are not that similar. Cinnamon Bark oil is mainly cinnamic aldehyde; Cinnamon Leaf oil contains quite a high amount of eugenol (over 80.0% , Clove smelling).

What is Aldehyde C8 if I may ask?

 

[pkiler]

What is Aldehyde C8 if I may ask?

Use Perfumersearch to research your questions using the TGSC database:

Perfumer's Search Page - TGSC Search

When you do, you will find this page for Aldehyde C-8

The Good Scents Company - Aromatic/Hydrocarbon/Inorganic Ingredients Catalog information

Aromatic/Hydrocarbon/Inorganic Ingredients Catalog information

www.thegoodscentscompany.com

There you will learn so much about what it is.

 

[LaFou]

Use Perfumersearch to research your questions using the TGSC database:

Perfumer's Search Page - TGSC Search

When you do, you will find this page for Aldehyde C-8

The Good Scents Company - Aromatic/Hydrocarbon/Inorganic Ingredients Catalog information

Aromatic/Hydrocarbon/Inorganic Ingredients Catalog information

www.thegoodscentscompany.com

There you will learn so much about what it is.

Thank you, 🌹 for your help

 

[LaFou]

Use Perfumersearch to research your questions using the TGSC database:

Perfumer's Search Page - TGSC Search

When you do, you will find this page for Aldehyde C-8

The Good Scents Company - Aromatic/Hydrocarbon/Inorganic Ingredients Catalog information

Aromatic/Hydrocarbon/Inorganic Ingredients Catalog information

www.thegoodscentscompany.com

There you will learn so much about what it is.

TGSC.com was and is really helpful! it’s wonderful to see the details on any material!

may I ask, which site do you recommend if I want to know the note of the material! (Top/Mid/Base)? I ask, because I ordered materials from PSH and harry (Harrison Joseph) and facing a challenge to pin which note for some of the materials!
thank you 🙏

 

[Quay Limey]

if I want to know the note of the material! (Top/Mid/Base)? I ask, because I ordered materials from PSH and harry (Harrison Joseph) and facing a challenge to pin which note for some of the materials!

TGSC lists the substantivity of materials; not in all cases but for most. It’s not an authority but helps get a rough idea. I’ve found a few to be far from accurate.

Another indicator might be the boiling point, also listed on TGSC for a lot of materials. Again, it’s just a rough way of getting an idea of how a material might perform. The best and most accurate way of determining if a material is a top, mid or base note is to put it to use and study its effects or longevity, preferably on skin.

 

[mnitabach]

TGSC lists the substantivity of materials; not in all cases but for most. It’s not an authority but helps get a rough idea. I’ve found a few to be far from accurate.

Another indicator might be the boiling point, also listed on TGSC for a lot of materials. Again, it’s just a rough way of getting an idea of how a material might perform. The best and most accurate way of determining if a material is a top, mid or base note is to put it to use and study its effects or longevity, preferably on skin.

My experience with the data on TGSC is that boiling point is substantially more reliable & comparable between materials than the reported substantivity times.

 

[Quay Limey]

Yemen. Where the data has been available, I've marked the boiling point on all my material notes. It certainly helps when writing out formulas using materials you might not be familiar with. Or even if you are it's useful just for rough confirmation of the evaporative characteristics of the perfume in advance of assembly.

Edit : I'm not claiming you can accurately predict how the perfume will perform, just that you have a less-than-blind overview of it. On many occasions the results did not match the predicted effects.

 

[LaFou]

Cool, and perhaps I’ll do some more search to find better information and post here the remaining ones which I couldn’t find any details that helps and you guys can advice from experience on what you know!
I’ll try to find it all via search first to hopefully not bother you with it! Cheers

 

[xii]

I think toluene aldehyde (4-methylbenzaldehyde, p-tolualdehyde) might be important as well, for a darker version of benzaldehyde.

My favourite by far. And not only mine:

The best cherry material I have is tolualdehyde. Longer lasting than benzaldehyde and I think pretty versatile. Cherry, cranberry, liquor etc.

 

[David Ruskin]

may I ask, which site do you recommend if I want to know the note of the material! (Top/Mid/Base)? I ask, because I ordered materials from PSH and harry (Harrison Joseph) and facing a challenge to pin which note for some of the materials!
thank you 🙏

The best way, and, I think, the only reliable way to find out is by testing each ingredient yourself. You need to dip each ingredient and start smelling it over the next day or so. When you can no longer smell it, or if it is very weak you will have learned whether the ingredient is Top, Middle or Base note. Individual ingredient smelling and seeing how long it lasts, is part of the vital process of learning the smells.