Advice on a formula. Am I doing something wrong? Lack of longevity

Fosnine

New member
Sep 10, 2022
Hi there!

I just started dabbling in perfumery.
I've bought the starterskits from Hekserij and their book of 26 simple formulas.
According to their book, all the formulas say to use 20 drops per 10ml total. As advised everywhere, I mix using weight instead of drops and 20 drops per 10ml is around 4%. I've sent an email to them to ask whether this is as intented. Jan told me that this concentration has been tested and should work as a formula and that it's better since it avoids olfactory fatigue.
I've tried using this concentration but I had the feeling the fragrance was very weak when used on skin and didn't last long at all.
I've increased the concentration to 10-15%, depending on the type of formula. I get a strong scent when applying but me or my girlfriend can't smell them at all anymore after mostly 2-3 hours.
The only one that seemed to kind of last the whole day is their Molecule 01 clone which I upped to 15% concentration.
Thinking it could be these formulas I tried to make the following formula at 15% concentration but I have the same issue, it smells nice when applied but fades very quickly, less than 2 hours. I apply about 3 sprays to the chest.

220 Iso E Super
220 Hedione
220 Ethylene Brassylate
204 Bergamot EO
136 Orange Sweet CP EO

Sorry for the wall of text.
I know increasing longevity in general is a question that is often asked so I already had a look through those threads but it's mostly always an issue with the formulas. I would think that the formulas from the book should be decent, albeit fairly basic.
If anybody can suggest what I could perhaps change to the formula to increase it longevity, please do. :)

Thank you in advance

Kind regards

Fosnine
 

chyprefresh

Basenotes Dependent
Jan 15, 2018
Orange notes consist mostly of volatiles like Limonene which doesn't last very long even in high concentration, the Linalyl acetate in Bergamot may last about 3x longer at best but still not into the later dry down, you lack strong middle notes to carry a fragrance into the later dry down. 2 hours sounds about right for this formula in terms of noticeable projection, the other notes are quite soft and aren't meant to be front and center, they are just to soften and floralize a fragrance.
 

Fosnine

New member
Sep 10, 2022
Thank you for the quick replies.
I understand that the Ethylene Brassilate, Hedion and Iso E Super are base notes and the orange and bergamot are top notes.
I'll try adding some Mayol and perhaps Ylang Ylang to fill this.
Does time affect the perfume regarding longevity in any way?
 

pkiler

Basenotes Plus
Basenotes Plus
Dec 5, 2007
Thank you for the quick replies.
I understand that the Ethylene Brassilate, Hedion and Iso E Super are base notes and the orange and bergamot are top notes.
I'll try adding some Mayol and perhaps Ylang Ylang to fill this.
Does time affect the perfume regarding longevity in any way?
Iso E Super and Hedione are not basenotes. They are middle notes.
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
Thank you for the quick replies.
I understand that the Ethylene Brassilate, Hedion and Iso E Super are base notes and the orange and bergamot are top notes.
I'll try adding some Mayol and perhaps Ylang Ylang to fill this.
Does time affect the perfume regarding longevity in any way?
Mayol on its own is definitely not going to help you.
 

santeripe

Basenotes Member
Nov 28, 2021
Iso E Super and Hedione are not basenotes. They are middle notes.
How are base and middle notes defined? Iso-E Super on its own as Molecule 01 has excellent projection/longevity, and gets reactions from others even after multiple hours. It's room-filling in my experience. Your nose just gets tired of it exceptionally quickly, so you don't notice that it's there. Thus a formula that's mainly dependant on it without any excitary ACs (norlimbanol etc) seems weak to the wearer.

As for OP's struggle, Iso-E, Hedione and Ethylene Brassylate all smell very mild and barely there on their own. While the citrus oils you're using have very robust undeniable smells. When you spray this formula, your nose gets used to the robust citrus opening, and takes that as the benchmark of strength. When the citruses fade and you're left with the synthetic (yet long-lasting) skeleton, your nose recognizes its mild scent as barely there and weak.

If you made a formula with only this synthetic skeleton of Iso-E, Hedione and Ethylene Brassylate at 15%, I bet you would find it to be way more long-lasting. Your nose would never get used to the robust citrus opening blast, lowering the bar of what seems "strong" and what seems "weak". This effect is why your Molecule 01 clone seemed to last all day. Your nose never took anything robust-smelling as a benchmark of strength, allowing you to appreciate the mild and hazy smell of Iso-E Super all day.
 

Casper_grassy

Basenotes Dependent
May 5, 2020
How are base and middle notes defined? Iso-E Super on its own as Molecule 01 has excellent projection/longevity, and gets reactions from others even after multiple hours. It's room-filling in my experience. Your nose just gets tired of it exceptionally quickly, so you don't notice that it's there. Thus a formula that's mainly dependant on it without any excitary ACs (norlimbanol etc) seems weak to the wearer.

They are defined by how long they last.

Both IES and Hedione do not last that long.
 

NarcisoM

Super Member
Nov 25, 2019
I´m the least experienced here, but you´re close to the Grojsman accord and I think at some point we all have tried this accord, leaving aside bergamot and orange EOs which will fade away after 20 minutes or so, your IES+Hedione+EB building block should last and be noticeable for at least 5 or 6 hours.
 
Jan 4, 2021
Projection and longevity are such fundamentals in perfumery. These are the things that we perfumers seek to master.

Studying and testing and trying many different combinations and concentrations, you will find the AC's that have the longevity you seek. This requires longevity of practive.

In my experience, the lasting notes are those of musks, labdanum and certain woods like sandalwood and Oud.
CItrus notes will not last long as they are volatile oils, limonene and the like.
Many top note naturals, generally, are not the most tenacious. Balsam, castoreum, hyraceum and natural musks (that seem to get better with age), last a long long time on fabric and on skin.

Many synthetics last longer, Hivernal (Top, middle and base note) for example just keeps going and going. Habanolide will stick to a test strip for weeks and weeks. Muscone will perservere even through a wash sometimes! Ambroxan is an absolute masterpiece of longevity and diffusion. Vanillin is often overlooked for its abundance, but is very tenacious and last long on skin.

The question of longevity is not neccesarily in the formula, but in the application. Where are you using it? Is it applied to skin or to fabric? These factors will dictate the staying power.

Until a miracle fixative exists and traps smell in some prison of time; we are humbled to learn the chemicals and their applications, and to maximise their performance for the average use.
 

mnitabach

Basenotes Dependent
Nov 13, 2020
Projection and longevity are such fundamentals in perfumery. These are the things that we perfumers seek to master.

Studying and testing and trying many different combinations and concentrations, you will find the AC's that have the longevity you seek. This requires longevity of practive.

In my experience, the lasting notes are those of musks, labdanum and certain woods like sandalwood and Oud.
CItrus notes will not last long as they are volatile oils, limonene and the like.
Many top note naturals, generally, are not the most tenacious. Balsam, castoreum, hyraceum and natural musks (that seem to get better with age), last a long long time on fabric and on skin.

Many synthetics last longer, Hivernal (Top, middle and base note) for example just keeps going and going. Habanolide will stick to a test strip for weeks and weeks. Muscone will perservere even through a wash sometimes! Ambroxan is an absolute masterpiece of longevity and diffusion. Vanillin is often overlooked for its abundance, but is very tenacious and last long on skin.

The question of longevity is not neccesarily in the formula, but in the application. Where are you using it? Is it applied to skin or to fabric? These factors will dictate the staying power.

Until a miracle fixative exists and traps smell in some prison of time; we are humbled to learn the chemicals and their applications, and to maximise their performance for the average use.
A very wise post! Other big long materials to think about are ethylene brassylate, musk ketone, lyral, various schiff bases, ibq, isoeugenol, evernyl...
 

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