Accords - Questions and clarification

[LaFou]

Hello to all the good people,
hope your doing well and staying in good health,

I have some questions here, perhaps you can advise or clarify as you know best:

- when we make an accord, do we have to let it mature! If yes, how long? Do we treat it as normal formula
- Do we need to dilute accords when necessary! Because it’s an accord, it’s very hard to define its actual strength!
- Do we compare the accord vs a single material which we know it’s strength to get a relative idea? Or is there another way to know! Maybe from the accord materials?
- what’s the difference between an accord and a base? They both seem the same to me! Is there any difference rather than simple wording indications! Related to manufacturer or producer
- once we make an accord, do we then treat it as a single material in a formula!? or do we need to consider the variable of additional accord materials
- can’t we consider an accord as miniature formula!? I tested some accords which turn out so nice it could be a perfume by itself, speaking here of an oriental cherry accord
- is it preferred to mix several accords in a formula!? Or even make a formula that consist only from made accords!? How would that affect the over all result!?
- if we used several accord as a formula, do we have to mature it again!? In case that we originally have to mature the Accord

Any and all advices is greatly appreciated 🙏
cheers

 

[parker25mv]

- when we make an accord, do we have to let it mature!

That can really depend.
Some components in a perfume don't mature, others do.
Sometimes maturation might not be able to happen until everything is together. I don't know this from experience, but I suspect in some cases if you were to allow the accords to mature before being combined it might even result in the final fragrance to mature a little bit differently.

- if we used several accord as a formula, do we have to mature it again!?

If maturation is an important thing to you, you probably should.
(especially in certain sorts of situations, but knowing when exactly those situations are likely to arise is probably too much headache for most people)

- Do we need to dilute accords when necessary! Because it’s an accord, it’s very hard to define its actual strength!

That's up to your own discretion. Theoretically it would make no difference, but it might allow you to better evaluate things.

For me, personally, I would just hold my nose further away, and too much alcohol can overpower my ability to accurately smell things a little bit.

You will have some impressions of how strong things are, and how much to add, but the reality is that you're not really going to find out except by experiment. So most perfumers might try just adding a little bit at a time, evaluating each time, and increasing as needed.

- what’s the difference between an accord and a base?

I'd say there's no hard and fast definitions, but a base a little bit more basic than an accord.
A base is often intended to represent one note that is a natural thing found in nature.
An accord is often a couple of different notes combined together. They complement each other in some way, though it's still not really a final fragrance.
Sometimes the two terminologies can be used a bit interchangeably.

Some will disagree, but I think a base also has a tendency to imply something that's more of a base note. Or a base might have a tendency to be mainly one primary AC, which is accentuated by a smaller amount of other ACs.
It's almost hard to put into words exactly, I think the difference between the two is something perfumers understand on a more instinctual level.

 

[parker25mv]

- once we make an accord, do we then treat it as a single material in a formula!?

This is a complicated question. I think most perfumers treat it as a single material, but that is mostly for convenience.
You might in some situations need to treat it as a formula, perhaps make some adjustments, though that can make things more complicated.

- can’t we consider an accord as miniature formula!?

An accord is a miniature formula, but the main reason for accords is convenience. It's often going to make it way too complicated if you want to mess with your accords every time.
This is one of those intuitive things, rather than a yes or no question.
Yes, there might be some rare situations where you need to go back and adjust the accord to better fit the goals of the final fragrance. This can require a lot of skill and knowledge though, so is not a desirable thing for a lot of perfumers, can be more headache than it is worth.

- is it preferred to mix several accords in a formula!? Or even make a formula that consist only from made accords!?

There are different ways to develop a formula.

Maybe throw one to three accords in there, one or two bases, and maybe 3 or 4 additional ACs (even though some of them might already be present in the accords) and you have yourself a formula.

 

[LaFou]

This is a complicated question. I think most perfumers treat it as a single material, but that is mostly for convenience.
You might in some situations need to treat it as a formula, perhaps make some adjustments, though that can make things more complicated.


An accord is a miniature formula, but the main reason for accords is convenience. It's often going to make it way too complicated if you want to mess with your accords every time.
This is one of those intuitive things, rather than a yes or no question.
Yes, there might be some rare situations where you need to go back and adjust the accord to better fit the goals of the final fragrance. This can require a lot of skill and knowledge though, so is not a desirable thing for a lot of perfumers, can be more headache than it is worth.


There are different ways to develop a formula.

Maybe throw one to three accords in there, one or two bases, and maybe 3 or 4 additional ACs (even though some of them might already be present in the accords) and you have yourself a formula.

Thank you 🙏

you know, instinctively Im almost certain of all the answers before asking at this thread, though some are different than yours but some are quite similar!

but sometimes, it’s always better to share the idea or ideas for conversation with same minded people where you can expect a different perception or acquired experience that makes you go, oh yeaaa that’s right!

at the end, it’s accumulated experiences what cuts down the learning time or learning curve for many!

if I have to answer myself, I would go as follow:
- yes we need to let the accord mature, any and all compounded materials have to properly mature for best expected outcomes
- yes accords needs to be diluted sometimes, especially if you are using heavy Materials
- yes, we can compare the intensity of accords towards single materials which we have experience with their normal intensity, though, this might be subjective to each nose, but with generally close results can be expected
- there’s no difference in terms of composition, but i believe an accord can describe something which you can’t find in real materials, like bublegum cherry accord, but, accords can be similar to bases too, in case of an example here, Apple base and Apple accord
- yes, we need to treat it as the obtained single scent, but, we have to keep in mind the idea that several complex materials involved and need to observe it’s effects on the overall structure of the formula
- I feel this is a yes too, some accords are simply astonishing, some bases too, gut feeling here, any several materials mixed are considered a formula, miniature called or large formula
- again, gut feeling here says yes, and that’s where possible dilution of accords would come in handy, making a formula with multiple accords and bases can be approached similar to single materials, as matter of fact, most of the time, single materials are used for their ability to alter the Desired effect, but it’s not a general rule as known,
- I also feel this is a definite yes, at least for me, any new materials mixed together, regardless if they were matured or not, but once mixed together, they need to have their time to remature and mix properly For better acquired results, and yes maturity is very Important to me personally, everywhere I read and every time I tried, when formula mature is extremely better, and refined and have proper depth.

thats what I feel from experience working for the past year or so.

cheers

 

[parker25mv]

Thank you 🙏

I would get some other opinions from different perfumers though. Different individuals are going to have a bit different "takes" on these questions.

 

[LaFou]

I would get some other opinions from different perfumers though. Different individuals are going to have a bit different "takes" on these questions.

Yes absolutely, you are right my dear, as I said, that’s why I asked! Always love to hear different experiences! Perhaps some will correct my own! This is where one tend to learn more

 

[parker25mv]

- again, gut feeling here says yes, and that’s where possible dilution of accords would come in handy, making a formula with multiple accords and bases can be approached similar to single materials, as matter of fact, most of the time, single materials are used for their ability to alter the Desired effect, but it’s not a general rule as known,

Well, it is definitely true that some strong materials should, or should probably, be used in dilution. Allows more precision and control over addition.
Whether this really applies to accords, maybe not as much.
But when combining synthetics with many types of naturals, caution has to be used, since the synthetics are far stronger (more concentrated) than the naturals. If you have some high price flower absolute you were using, perhaps this is a case where you want to pre-dilute all the synthetics (like down to maybe 10 or 25 times). Put them closer to being on the same level of intensity. But I'm not sure that's what you were specifically asking.

I guess if you find one accord to be stronger smelling than another, you could try diluting it down by half, if you find that makes it easier for you to work with it, but I don't think that's standard practice.

 

[LaFou]

Well, it is definitely true that some strong materials should, or should probably, be used in dilution. Allows more precision and control over addition.
Whether this really applies to accords, maybe not as much.
But when combining synthetics with many types of naturals, caution has to be used, since the synthetics are far stronger (more concentrated) than the naturals. If you have some high price flower absolute you were using, perhaps this is a case where you want to pre-dilute all the synthetics (like down to maybe 10 or 25 times). Put them closer to being on the same level of intensity. But I'm not sure that's what you were specifically asking.

Not exactly, but I can follow your trail of thoughts and it’s a good info to know! You got my attention at high price 😅
I do though like to follow the vapor pressure intensity rule when ever I have enough data to properly define it, then it’s a matter of math of 40% dilution to take down 1 level of intensity, after that is merely match as desired material/s

but accords can be extremely tricky to pin down, hence, your nose vs materials have to do the heavy lifting in defining it!
IMO starting With 60% dilution to compare is a good start always, then go as needed down to 50% 20% 10% 5% 1% etc…

I noticed an accord I made of Oud/wood has greatly intensified in matter of 2 month! My nose 100% tell me it’s stronger now! But I didn’t record it back then on Vs material to define! I am doing it now though, and for now it beat most of the compared materials, my expectations I need to bring it down at least to 40% to start noticing some synergy With other materials, let’s see 💪

 

[parker25mv]

IMO starting With 60% dilution to compare is a good start always, then go as needed down to 50% 20% 10% 5% 1% etc…

I work a little differently. If something is very strong, I might start with an arbitrary percentage, say 5%. Set aside a little sample.
You know why I'll do this? Why I don't just start with a higher concentration? Because I know my nose can get easily overwhelmed. If I start at 50% or 20%, and try to evaluate that to smell if it's strong enough, if it is too strong then I'm going to have to come back to it, give my nose a rest. So I start with a lower percentage. If it then smells too weak, then I can try it again (in a separate batch) and raise the concentration, maybe 3 or 4 times higher.

My nose 100% tell me it’s stronger now!

I wonder if this could simply be nose fatigue. If you don't work on any perfumery or smell anything for a day, and then come back and give something a smell, it is likely to smell stronger or different.
Don't underestimate nose fatigue. The receptors in the nose become oversaturated by smelling things, and then can't accurately smell for a while.

 

[LaFou]

I work a little differently. If something is very strong, I might start with an arbitrary percentage, say 5%. Set aside a little sample.
You know why I'll do this? Why I don't just start with a higher concentration? Because I know my nose can get easily overwhelmed. If I start at 50% or 20%, and try to evaluate that to smell if it's strong enough, if it is too strong then I'm going to have to come back to it, give my nose a rest. So I start with a lower percentage. If it then smells too weak, then I can try it again (in a separate batch) and raise the concentration, maybe 3 or 4 times higher.

This works too, whatever does The trick is always the correct thing!
i thought at the beginning I had a weak nose, but as I progress more and more, I found that I have a strong tendency to take multiple different scents at different intensities with ease! and my nose is getting better and better by the day!
even when trying perfumes now, I tend to smell 20 different ones with continues ease, and I perceive perfumes differently now! I can detect flaws much faster and easier than ever! Most of the perfumes that I used to think that they are good, i smell them now differently! I feel as I said their flaws or weaknesses or lack of depth! And some I feel more intensely more alive and more wonderful than ever! One good example of proper formulation are any of parfum de Marley or the astonishing amouage royal tobacco or bdk smoking rouge! Among others!

i Never had problems from day 1 smelling any of the hard materials which was talked about that needs practice, for me I was able to smell it from day 1, it’s not bragging or anything, we can’t brag about things we have no control over, but I can say that my practice routine which I do almost daily has helped in ways beyond any expectations, I always tend to smell multiple scents moment I wake up, and just before going to sleep, I always have several bottles close by and change them from time to time! Ambergris for me now is something Im greatly found of and heavier notes like patchouli or vetiver are preferred to my nose now!

I sincerely recommend to anyone to exercise their nose daily if possible, even with the same scents, just keep practicing to smell daily and your nose will grow Arnold muscles 💪

 

[LaFou]

I wonder if this could simply be nose fatigue. If you don't work on any perfumery or smell anything for a day, and then come back and give something a smell, it is likely to smell stronger or different.
Don't underestimate nose fatigue. The receptors in the nose become oversaturated by smelling things, and then can't accurately smell for a while.

no it’s stronger, more deep and sharp! I’m absolutely certain of this! And feels at the same time light like smelling a cloud of scent, like a bubble of intense Oud like smell! Floating at the air almost you visualize it! I closed my eyes and gave it a red cloud color and followed its amplifying aura almost 1 meter away from the smelling strip! But I dipped the strip to be fair!

 

[parker25mv]

Also wanted to say, for a lot of perfumers, individual ACs are too difficult to work with (especially some of them). So oftentimes perfumers will find bases easier to work with. (This is especially the case for perfumers with more prior experience in natural perfumery)
Oftentimes when a big company releases a new captive, they will do so in the form of a base. (You won't be able to buy the captive AC all by itself)
They do this to try to help showcase the new captive, displaying its potential. If a lot of people just smelled the AC all by itself, they might just be dismissive and lose enthusiasm for it.

When it comes to using "intuition" and "feelings", bases are just much easier to work with.

 

[LaFou]

Also wanted to say, for a lot of perfumers, individual ACs are too difficult to work with (especially some of them). So oftentimes perfumers will find bases easier to work with. (This is especially the case for perfumers with more prior experience in natural perfumery)
Oftentimes when a big company releases a new captive, they will do so in the form of a base. (You won't be able to buy the captive AC all by itself)
They do this to try to help showcase the new captive, displaying its potential. If a lot of people just smelled the AC all by itself, they might just be dismissive and lose enthusiasm for it.

When it comes to using "intuition" and "feelings", bases are just much easier to work with.

Make sense, and agreed Is much easier to work with bases and accords, individual AC packs a heavy experience toll! One must gather immense knowledge and experience and trials to be successful at using them from scratch !
thats why when I buy materials, I do so in reference to a base formula or an accord formula I have, and that helps me to build ready structures for my formulation uses!
till now, I’m not so lucky going above 10 single materials from scratch to create something good! Still, 10 is not bad! Many possibilities there and I have almost several decks of 10 materials I use, perhaps 4 decks or 5 giving around 40 to 50 single materials I can play with from scratch! But this will increase in time for sure! And reading more of properties and scientific supporting information and techniques

but creating bases or accords is supper fun and useful and I have most of the needed materials to do so 💪🤓

 

[Culpa Ire]

If maturation is an important thing to you, you probably should.
(especially in certain sorts of situations, but knowing when exactly those situations are likely to arise is probably too much headache for most people)

I would just hold my nose further away,

a base a little bit more basic than an accord

I think a base also has a tendency to imply something that's more of a base note

when combining synthetics with many types of naturals, caution has to be used, since the synthetics are far stronger (more concentrated) than the naturals

Also wanted to say, for a lot of perfumers, individual ACs are too difficult to work with (especially some of them)

When it comes to using "intuition" and "feelings", bases are just much easier to work with.

 

[jfrater]

Hello to all the good people,
hope your doing well and staying in good health,

I have some questions here, perhaps you can advise or clarify as you know best:

- when we make an accord, do we have to let it mature! If yes, how long? Do we treat it as normal formula
- Do we need to dilute accords when necessary! Because it’s an accord, it’s very hard to define its actual strength!
- Do we compare the accord vs a single material which we know it’s strength to get a relative idea? Or is there another way to know! Maybe from the accord materials?
- what’s the difference between an accord and a base? They both seem the same to me! Is there any difference rather than simple wording indications! Related to manufacturer or producer
- once we make an accord, do we then treat it as a single material in a formula!? or do we need to consider the variable of additional accord materials
- can’t we consider an accord as miniature formula!? I tested some accords which turn out so nice it could be a perfume by itself, speaking here of an oriental cherry accord
- is it preferred to mix several accords in a formula!? Or even make a formula that consist only from made accords!? How would that affect the over all result!?
- if we used several accord as a formula, do we have to mature it again!? In case that we originally have to mature the Accord

Any and all advices is greatly appreciated 🙏
cheers

I let mine mature but you don't have to. The only time this may not be true is perhaps if schiff bases form and you need to allow them to complete before blending. Not likely much of an issue most of the time. Maturing is most useful when you are mixing accords for the first time - you need to let them settle so you can evaluate them at their best. They will improve over time with resting, but that is also going to happen (albeit at a slower rate) once diluted.

No need to dilute accords unless you find it easier to work with it. My pinapple base is very strong - it can be diluted fine but it doesn't have to be. On the other hand diluting Saxon Moss (mousse de saxe) is probably less useful unless you are blending with all your other materials diluted. It depends on the base and how you perceive its strength and how you already work - this answer will be different depending on each perfumer's working style.

Compare by smelling - simple. If it overpowers your material you are comparing to, dilute it and try again. Treat it like a single chemical. Knowing the contents is really only going to matter when you need to ensure compliance for IFRA or regulations.

Yes treat it as a single material - that's really the point of bases. You can also put bases inside bases.

An accord _IS_ a mini formula (though they are not always mini - I have some with over 60 materials). These are very flexible - perfume is in general. Muguet des bois was a perfume made by Henri Robert. It was sold diluted with some tinctures as a perfume. They realised how good it was for other purposes and then began selling it as a base - also called Muguet des bois. It got more life out of it as a base than it did as a Coty perfume because it is the heart of Diorissimo by Edmund Roudnitska. If you make a base and it is just what you like - just stop there. There is no reason to go further. If you have a formula with 350g total - so what? I've seen many with more than 7,000 grams, some with 1238grams, some with 832 grams. There is no rule except "if you like the smell and it's performance, stop". Here's a nice little scene from one of my favourite films that speaks to this point - though in terms of art:

The film is Six Degrees of Separation - you must see it if you haven't already. The sentence the teacher says around 1:15 is the key.

The greatest vetiver perfume ever made is by Givenchy. It is 5 bases and nothing more. I've seen a Guerlain perfume with only 3 bases. And then Jean Carles had bases inside other bases and then more bases. And then mixed them with other bases of the same level of complexity in long complex formulas. The result is magic and velvet. Use one base... uses two.... use ten... use whatever you need to use to get the smell and performance you love.

Again with maturing this can possibly help if there are going to be a lot of schiff bases forming for some reason but generally speaking once the perfume is all mixed and resting during the maceration stage, everything will meld anyway. Personlly I do rest my juice for perfumes - but mostly because I like to make sure that once it is all merged together there hasn't been a gross error made in the weighing - so really just so I can make sure it smells right before diluting. No point wasting all that lovely alcohol!

And bases and accords are the same thing - blends of multiple materials. Some may consider an accord to be a smaller blend of materials - perhaps 2 or three to make a chord, but that is still a base because a base is any mixture of materials. A perfume is a base.

 

[parker25mv]

Some may consider an accord to be a smaller blend of materials - perhaps 2 or three to make a chord, but that is still a base because a base is any mixture of materials.

I get the feeling that a base can be of composed of more similar materials (or at least aiming for a more similar target), though there are different types of "bases", whereas an accord is composed of more different notes that compliment each other. Bases and accords can be used with a little bit different meanings, in different contexts. Some bases obviously have very long and complicated formulas and consist of all different types of things that are not similar to each other - more complex than an accord. I think when I was referring to "bases" before I was referring to "simple bases", bases designed to embody or mainly surround one type of natural note.

So I think it's paradoxically true to both say that bases are [or have the inherent tendency to potentially be] more basic than accords, but bases can be also be more complex than accords. It depends on the usage of the word.
Whereas an accord could refer to, for example, a list of 5 ACs that come together to create an apple note, or it could refer to a list of 3 different essential oils that combine together in some pre-decided proportion to complement each other in some way, give a sort of combined feel together. Those two are kind of very different things.
Maybe one could almost say there "are two different types" of accords, and two different types of bases (although I don't think any perfumer would actually say that).
Accord seems to be more of a specific terminology than a base, but when something is an accord we refer to it as an accord rather than a base.

Another big difference seems to be that accords tend to be created on-hand, whereas bases are usually pre-made.
(It's not an absolute rule though)

The two are kind of on a continuous spectrum though; it's not altogether a clear line differentiating the two, though many times you can clearly recognise one as one or the other.

 

[parker25mv]

I found these definitions

"In perfumery, the accord is the pooling of different raw materials, balanced and harmonised to create a unique scent, defining the soul of the fragrance."
"What is an accord? Borrowing from musical terminology, accord in perfumery means a combination of several ingredients that become more than a sum of their parts ; they acquire a distinctive character. When an accord is added into a fragrance formula, it lends the finished composition its distinctive, unique character."

"A base, in order to be considered as such, must have a defined character, as it is an essential structure of the composition of a fragrance."

And I think a thread about this question already exists: A Base or an Accord
It looks like it's really difficult to translate the concepts into precise words.

 

[Casper_grassy]

I don’t think the terminology is all that important to know. I agree with the notion that an accord would be the interaction of a handful of materials forming the “signature” of the perfume. Though if in a perfume if you wanted a hint of a rose note you would put in a small accord, maybe something like PEA, Citronellol and Eugenol.
But if you used those 3 materials and added a ton of shit in the direction of a rose and used that in a formula I would personally classify it as a rose base. If you follow this logic you can say that an accord can become a base depending on the context it’s used in. Like Rose Givco, Dorinia and Cetylia are all bases.

You can also look at the Mellis accord or Grojsman accord and those are obvious plays on different ingredients forming the majority odor of a perfume.

Then you can technically make an accord out of multiple bases forming the signature of a scent.

What a rabbit hole.

 

[parker25mv]

Then you can technically make an accord out of multiple bases forming the signature of a scent.

Yes, I think you can make an accord out of multiple bases (that is possible), and a base that includes multiple accords, but the definitions between the two are still a little bit different, and whether it is considered a base or an accord depends on how that sub-formula is constructed.

There could easily be situations where it would not be clear whether a formula constitutes a base or an accord.

 

[parker25mv]

Though if in a perfume if you wanted a hint of a rose note you would put in a small accord, maybe something like PEA, Citronellol and Eugenol.

In the context of a single note, I think a rose base would probably be more complex than a rose accord.
But an accord that contains different major notes (like say rose, sandalwood, jasmine) would contain more disparate different type of notes than a rose base. In a rose base, everything would be constructed to work together towards a common goal, a very singular type of note, a "primary" note, often reminiscent of one single type of thing in nature. In an accord combining different primary notes, you are creating a more abstract concept, combining notes from separate "concepts" or separate things found in nature which don't naturally exist together.

This is still a poor definition and none of this holds hard and fast.

 

[LaFou]

I let mine mature but you don't have to. The only time this may not be true is perhaps if schiff bases form and you need to allow them to complete before blending. Not likely much of an issue most of the time. Maturing is most useful when you are mixing accords for the first time - you need to let them settle so you can evaluate them at their best. They will improve over time with resting, but that is also going to happen (albeit at a slower rate) once diluted.

No need to dilute accords unless you find it easier to work with it. My pinapple base is very strong - it can be diluted fine but it doesn't have to be. On the other hand diluting Saxon Moss (mousse de saxe) is probably less useful unless you are blending with all your other materials diluted. It depends on the base and how you perceive its strength and how you already work - this answer will be different depending on each perfumer's working style.

Compare by smelling - simple. If it overpowers your material you are comparing to, dilute it and try again. Treat it like a single chemical. Knowing the contents is really only going to matter when you need to ensure compliance for IFRA or regulations.

Yes treat it as a single material - that's really the point of bases. You can also put bases inside bases.

An accord _IS_ a mini formula (though they are not always mini - I have some with over 60 materials). These are very flexible - perfume is in general. Muguet des bois was a perfume made by Henri Robert. It was sold diluted with some tinctures as a perfume. They realised how good it was for other purposes and then began selling it as a base - also called Muguet des bois. It got more life out of it as a base than it did as a Coty perfume because it is the heart of Diorissimo by Edmund Roudnitska. If you make a base and it is just what you like - just stop there. There is no reason to go further. If you have a formula with 350g total - so what? I've seen many with more than 7,000 grams, some with 1238grams, some with 832 grams. There is no rule except "if you like the smell and it's performance, stop". Here's a nice little scene from one of my favourite films that speaks to this point - though in terms of art:

The film is Six Degrees of Separation - you must see it if you haven't already. The sentence the teacher says around 1:15 is the key.

The greatest vetiver perfume ever made is by Givenchy. It is 5 bases and nothing more. I've seen a Guerlain perfume with only 3 bases. And then Jean Carles had bases inside other bases and then more bases. And then mixed them with other bases of the same level of complexity in long complex formulas. The result is magic and velvet. Use one base... uses two.... use ten... use whatever you need to use to get the smell and performance you love.

Again with maturing this can possibly help if there are going to be a lot of schiff bases forming for some reason but generally speaking once the perfume is all mixed and resting during the maceration stage, everything will meld anyway. Personlly I do rest my juice for perfumes - but mostly because I like to make sure that once it is all merged together there hasn't been a gross error made in the weighing - so really just so I can make sure it smells right before diluting. No point wasting all that lovely alcohol!

And bases and accords are the same thing - blends of multiple materials. Some may consider an accord to be a smaller blend of materials - perhaps 2 or three to make a chord, but that is still a base because a base is any mixture of materials. A perfume is a base.

Wow, so much information, as always thank you Jamie 🙏🙏

 

[LaFou]

In the context of a single note, I think a rose base would probably be more complex than a rose accord.
But an accord that contains different major notes (like say rose, sandalwood, jasmine) would contain more disparate different type of notes than a rose base. In a rose base, everything would be constructed to work together towards a common goal, a very singular type of note, a "primary" note, often reminiscent of one single type of thing in nature. In an accord combining different primary notes, you are creating a more abstract concept, combining notes from separate "concepts" or separate things found in nature which don't naturally exist together.

This is still a poor definition and none of this holds hard and fast.

No not poor definition , makes sense! It’s not a fixed rule on both, but in general definition would be different when addressed in specifics such as an abstract scent or natural one
Thank you 🙏

 

[editorinscent]

I think you may be overthinking it here a bit, but that's ok! I do it all the time.

First rule, always trust your nose and evaluate with it. It's up to you to determine if something is too strong or not, that's what perfumery is all about.

Second, when making trials, I dilute everything. It saves money and it's easier to blend. Do not use arbitrary dilution values (not good advice), keep everything at base 10, I.E. 10%, 1%, 0.1%. This is done for mathematical simplicity, and also for compounding ease.

Third, yes use accords as single line items, that's sort of the point here. It makes perfumery much easier when you're balancing a handful of accords vs. 40 raw materials. When and if you want to explode the formula out, you would just take the amount used in the formula and multiply it by the accord values for each one.

Fourth, yes, everything takes time to mature and macerate. Accords and perfumes made with accords etc. At least 24h to get a first impression, and some say weeks to get the final picture. I don't blend things neat/undiluted until I have a final formula that I'm happy with (that I've used dilutions to make), and yes, it does smell better when you have the concentrate neat then make a perfume from it (which again needs time to macerate in alcohol).

And finally, it's much easier to record your formulas on a good perfume template spreadsheet, PM me if you don't have one.

and P.S. They way I see it, Bases are just accords that you purchase rather than make yourself. They are accords by definition.

 

[LaFou]

I think you may be overthinking it here a bit, but that's ok! I do it all the time.

First rule, always trust your nose and evaluate with it. It's up to you to determine if something is too strong or not, that's what perfumery is all about.

Second, when making trials, I dilute everything. It saves money and it's easier to blend. Do not use arbitrary dilution values (not good advice), keep everything at base 10, I.E. 10%, 1%, 0.1%. This is done for mathematical simplicity, and also for compounding ease.

Third, yes use accords as single line items, that's sort of the point here. It makes perfumery much easier when you're balancing a handful of accords vs. 40 raw materials. When and if you want to explode the formula out, you would just take the amount used in the formula and multiply it by the accord values for each one.

Fourth, yes, everything takes time to mature and macerate. Accords and perfumes made with accords etc. At least 24h to get a first impression, and some say weeks to get the final picture. I don't blend things neat/undiluted until I have a final formula that I'm happy with (that I've used dilutions to make), and yes, it does smell better when you have the concentrate neat then make a perfume from it (which again needs time to macerate in alcohol).

And finally, it's much easier to record your formulas on a good perfume template spreadsheet, PM me if you don't have one.

and P.S. They way I see it, Bases are just accords that you purchase rather than make yourself. They are accords by definition.

Yes you are right, but, as always better to ask first and try after! 😅
Amazing, all is noted and agreed with, thank you 🙏

my main points were the maturing Part and formula line part, that makes a big difference moving forward!

thanks again 🙏