Working only with prediluted materials for trials

[Gabriel Budui]

Hi all,

I saw some discussions around this topic, but now sure if this answers the question I have.

I only work with prediluted in alcohol materials when making my blends (regular ones to 10%, stronger ones to 1% or even 0.1%).

When converting a blend compound from predilution to neat materials, will this affect the composition in any way?
The tenacity and odour strengh of prediluted materials obviously differ from the neat ones, so I expect the composition to be slighlty different.
For ex. if 2 materials have about the same tenacity in neat state, their tenacity can differ when your work with them prediluted.

What is your experience on that? Have you noticed any changes?

Thanks

 

[tensor9]

As long as the relative amounts of your aroma materials are the same wether mixed neat or diluted, it should make little difference. The ethanol evaporates almost immediately after application.

Now, there could be some reactions occur when raw materials are mixed neat that do not occur or are slowed when mixed dilute.

So in principle, there could be a difference, but in the scheme of things, probably relatively minor depending on which materials you are mixing.

 

[Citroasis]

The only slight difference you may find, is if you use your pre-diluted trials in one dilutant (lets say Ethanol)...and then when you scale up using neat materials, im sure you will come across a material you will use still diluted. If that scaled up batch has diluted materials in IPM/DPG/etc (versus your trial batches all prediluted in Ethanol)....there might be a very slight difference......but not much to actually fuss about.

For the most part, youll be ok.

 

[papadooku]

I do the same as you for all of my test blends, only using neat materials once I've got a finished formula I'm happy to make in a bigger bottle.
No problems found along the way, except for one thing: I noticed my 5% patchouli EO had changed smell over time... Checked the forum and yep, this happens with patchouli EO - even though it ages very well when pure. So I just redid a 5% dilution but in a smaller container so it would be empty sooner 😅

There might be other ingredients that don't keep as well when diluted, if someone knows of any others...

Otherwise I suspect there would be no noticeable difference between a blend using prediluted materials and the same blend of pure materials diluted down to the same percentage as the weighted average of those prediluted materials.

 

[Scntwtk]

Its a good idea in a sense, yet Its tricky because some materials don't like to be in ethanol for too long and not just patchouli... I noticed that every vetiver materials, ionones, immortelle ebanol, polysantol, clary sage, neroli, citrus, many many esters (especially the fruity ones start smelling like their parent acids quite quickly ... yuck ), etc, etc. turn bad rather quickly in alcohol. also aldehydes should react over time with ethanol and smell bit rounder and weaker than they really should. It's a bummer because otherwise - from what I understand - ethanol is a very practical option for what you are trying to do..
If you do wish to work diluted in ethanol, I suggest personally to keep an eye on you alcoholic solutions and evaluate them often, and make new batches of your solutions often.
Otherwise, IPM or DPG is cool also, but for trials.. lets say you end up with 15 ish% fragrance concentration in DPG or IPM, it will feel a bit dull because these solvents - while excellent - are not very volatile and having 85% of DPG in a trial will definitely make it feel weaker that it should.

The best of the best - if you can aford it - is working neat with most materials, and dilute in DPG, IPM, BB or TEC only the very strong (and precious materials you wish not to use wastefully in your trials), or something in that direction.
Plus, with this method, you have less chance of having small calculation errors when scaling up with neat materials;

"Why does my finished product smell different from my trial?? is it the absence of a certain solvent that affect the perception of the fragrance ? is it the alcohol that reacted with something in the trial and not in the larger batch?, is it because I made a calculation error when changing the concentration for the finished formula? Did I make a mistake in the first place when diluting a certain material and it's not really at 10%?"

I don't know for you, but It's the last thing I want to ask myself at the end of a project
these errors have less chance to happen if you work with neat from the start and if they do occur they are much easier to troubleshoot

 

[SleepingPhoenixApothecary]

Its a good idea in a sense, yet Its tricky because some materials don't like to be in ethanol for too long and not just patchouli... I noticed that every vetiver materials, ionones, immortelle ebanol, polysantol, clary sage, neroli, citrus, many many esters (especially the fruity ones start smelling like their parent acids quite quickly ... yuck ), etc, etc. turn bad rather quickly in alcohol. also aldehydes should react over time with ethanol and smell bit rounder and weaker than they really should. It's a bummer because otherwise - from what I understand - ethanol is a very practical option for what you are trying to do..
If you do wish to work diluted in ethanol, I suggest personally to keep an eye on you alcoholic solutions and evaluate them often, and make new batches of your solutions often.
Otherwise, IPM or DPG is cool also, but for trials.. lets say you end up with 15 ish% fragrance concentration in DPG or IPM, it will feel a bit dull because these solvents - while excellent - are not very volatile and having 85% of DPG in a trial will definitely make it feel weaker that it should.

The best of the best - if you can aford it - is working neat with most materials, and dilute in DPG, IPM, BB or TEC only the very strong (and precious materials you wish not to use wastefully in your trials), or something in that direction.
Plus, with this method, you have less chance of having small calculation errors when scaling up with neat materials;

"Why does my finished product smell different from my trial?? is it the absence of a certain solvent that affect the perception of the fragrance ? is it the alcohol that reacted with something in the trial and not in the larger batch?, is it because I made a calculation error when changing the concentration for the finished formula? Did I make a mistake in the first place when diluting a certain material and it's not really at 10%?"

I don't know for you, but It's the last thing I want to ask myself at the end of a project
these errors have less chance to happen if you work with neat from the start and if they do occur they are much easier to troubleshoot

This is a great answer to this question, I also work in the way OP does and I am dreaming of the day that I can afford to work with neat materials from the get go, its purely a financial decision at this point.

 

[Casper_grassy]

To keep it short, take note of the things you use a lot or more frequently and buy them in larger quantities as opposed to buying 50 different things in small sizes.

For one you’ll be more comfortable using neat stock, realize how important the maceration process is and you’ll learn your materials much better because you’ll be restricted until you acquire much more material